Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[papercut]

Ok so what did I miss...

Here's what we have so far of T14+UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC

why does no one from Columbia want to clerk?

Can we hear about this from CLS students?

[jenesaislaw]

http://www.economist.com/news/business/ ... ce-success

[Nomo]

One thing we can agree on is that the school-funded fellowships do not create jobs in the non-profit sector. They are only changing who gets the limited jobs. And yes, its possible that as some orgs begin to rely on this they will shift the money they would have paid for an extra attorney into something else.

[20141023]

.

[Blessedassurance]

one simple way to resolve this issue is for the schools to compile data showing what percentage of grads in the school-funded category subsequently found permanent employment and in what category. these stats will trail the existing stats by a year and will be placed alongside the school funded section. so besides the school funded section for a particular year (2013 for example), there will be the school-funded positions data for the preceding year (2012 in this example), updated with where the members in that category landed afterwards.

of course, knowing law schools, they will probably simply come up with two-year long funded positions.

[Nomo]

one simple way to resolve this issue is for the schools to compile data showing what percentage of grads in the school-funded category subsequently found permanent employment and in what category. these stats will trail the existing stats by a year and will be placed alongside the school funded section. so besides the school funded section for a particular year (2013 for example), there will be the school-funded positions data for the preceding year (2012 in this example), updated with where the members in that category landed afterwards.

of course, knowing law schools, they will probably simply come up with two-year long funded positions.

Shouldn't have to trail by a year. If you're fellowship can't turn into a job one year after school is over then I don't think we need to give it more time. These fellowships are paid through tuition. They are part of the reason tuition keeps rising. And tuition has somehow hit the point where even if you get biglaw and hang on for 4 years (approximately the average span) you've still got 6 figures of debt left. This really is shameful. There might not be a single school in the country where a graduate, who achieves the median employment outcome for that school, has made a clearly wise financial decision. These fellowships are actually making the problem worse.

[manu6926]

...

[slayerhn]

SMU

76% in Bar Required Jobs
10 + 17 + 29 + 4 = 60 / 224 = 26.79% Biglaw + federal clerkships.

http://www.law.smu.edu/Career-Services/ ... Statistics

[middlemarch]

On the Columbia clerkship numbers topic, I don't go to Columbia, but anecdotally I've heard from friends at CLS that there is not as much support for obtaining clerkships as there is for helping students achieve Big Law. Obviously CLS is a fantastic school and looks great to federal judges, but it's very helpful to have institutional support in the clerkship application process because of how arduous and opaque it can be.

For example, I know that some schools provide clerkship books to students with grade breakdowns (i.e. GPA ranges for students from that school that received interviews) for every federal court in the country, and lists every judge who has hired an alum in recent years as well as the number/names of the alums. Information like that is incredibly beneficial for applicants because it provides guidance on whom to target, and also whom you can ask for interview advice. Prior to the death of the hiring plan, I know some schools also provided spreadsheets to students that listed call results from judges' chambers on whether they were hiring off-plan. And there are also things schools can do to streamline the process for getting letters of recommendation, e.g. creating a formal bidding system, rather than asking students to approach professors individually. When I told my CLS friends that these services were offered at peer schools, they seemed pretty shocked.

Again, purely anecdotal, but my impression was that Columbia does not devote as much energy into its clerkship office as it does career services for landing high-paying firm jobs, which by all accounts it really excels at. And of course there may be big differences in the student body at Columbia and their goals, which don't involve clerking (e.g. maybe more people are interested in NYC transactional practice), but I can't speak to that.

[capt_slow]

All of this talk about t12 or whatever is crazy talk. You guys realize the whole reason for the t14 designation is the fact that the 14 top schools have been the same or relatively the same since the rankings first came out in the late 80s.

Now if you want to recommend not going to the 10 or 14th ranked school... that is fine.

[Paul Campos]

The CLS 2013 clerkship numbers appear to be atypical. 8% to 10% of the graduates did (immediate) federal clerkships in each of the previous three classes. The more general point is that people should look at multiple years before constructing elaborate scenarios to explain supposedly significant differences between otherwise similar schools.

[moonman157]

Not sure how helpful this is to the CLS clerkship discussion, but starting this year 1Ls who clerk during the summer will receive guaranteed summer funding (which was also increased this year). Not sure if this means either 1) CSO is working to put more people into clerkships by making them more attractive to first year students or 2) if this will even have any effect, but just thought I would share.

I was never interested in a clerkship, so I haven't focused on that or that department at all, but the culture here is VERY heavily focused on biglaw. At least to me, it feels like they put you on a conveyer belt that leads you to your biglaw job, and it's up to you to get off and reconstruct your own path to PI/clerkships if your desire is that strong. Others may disagree.

[Mauve.Dino]

Penn State: --LinkRemoved--

4+1+3+4/200 = 6%

LOL--thanks to Sandusky's taint, PSU has like the worst Big Law/Fed Clerkship percentages in PA.

Also, 20% of the class is unemployed and seeking?

Yikes.

[zman]

When does LST release their employment stats?

[thereelfeels]

It's really a shocking number for a school that's now one spot from being a T1.

[Tuxedo]

SMU

76% in Bar Required Jobs
10 + 17 + 29 + 4 = 60 / 224 = 26.79% Biglaw + federal clerkships.

http://www.law.smu.edu/Career-Services/ ... Statistics

Nope, the 224 number excludes 19 students who are in various stages of unemployment and 4 who are working on graduate full-time degrees. The total number of SMU graduates is 247 for c/o 2013, like the first chart shows.

The employment figure is 24.3%. I apologize on my original number, as I forgot to round the 24.29 up to the much more solid 24.3.

Then again, I'm new to this. Am I doing it wrong?

[rad lulz]

It's really a shocking number for a school that's now one spot from being a T1.

"t1" is a meaningless designation

[rad lulz]

f

[Nelson]

Not sure how helpful this is to the CLS clerkship discussion, but starting this year 1Ls who clerk during the summer will receive guaranteed summer funding (which was also increased this year). Not sure if this means either 1) CSO is working to put more people into clerkships by making them more attractive to first year students or 2) if this will even have any effect, but just thought I would share.

I was never interested in a clerkship, so I haven't focused on that or that department at all, but the culture here is VERY heavily focused on biglaw. At least to me, it feels like they put you on a conveyer belt that leads you to your biglaw job, and it's up to you to get off and reconstruct your own path to PI/clerkships if your desire is that strong. Others may disagree.

You do realize that judicial internships and clerkships are totally different right?

The answer is what Campos said. Clerkship numbers are too small even at T14s for year to year fluctuations to be significant. It's more likely just a random decrease in interest among top students for that year at Columbia.

[smaug_]

Columbia student here to say LJL @ the clerkship discussion. "Just do federal clerkship" isn't really an option at any school so you're talking about very few individuals. As to why Columbia underperforms/underperformed, I doubt it is because of the money (most firms will give you a bonus to make you whole).

I think: (1) Columbia students are less likely to seek work outside of NYC, DC and CA compared to some other schools.

(2) Building on (1), Columbia students who compete for clerkships are more likely to focus on very competitive locations (D.D.C., S.D.N.Y., 2d Cir.) and are comparatively less likely to aim for positions outside those competitive locations (depressing the number of people who clerk) and

(3) a fair number of people are not lit focused (and know they're not lit focused) and thus don't care about a clerkship.

One final thing (I'd expect this is true everywhere now) is that NOW with the death of the plan, more people are applying as 3Ls/planning on applying once they start practicing. That might be foolish, but I've heard more than one person express an interest in trying to clerk, just not directly out of law school.

[jenesaislaw]

When does LST release their employment stats?

Best guess is week of April 7. Out of my control.

[Princetonlaw68]

All of this talk about t12 or whatever is crazy talk. You guys realize the whole reason for the t14 designation is the fact that the 14 top schools have been the same or relatively the same since the rankings first came out in the late 80s.

Now if you want to recommend not going to the 10 or 14th ranked school... that is fine.

No, it comes from the fact that there are 14 elite schools. USNWR reflects but did not create this.

I'm pretty sure USnews is the root of the T14 designation. I don't think anyone ever said T14 before the whole usnews thing. It's possible I'm wrong, but I've seen it proclaimed many times that the T14 really is just the result of the consistency of the usnews rankings. This differs from business schools, where you get the M7, which actually are the top 7 that also hold conferences every year etc. I think if usnews started putting UT in the T14 every year for 10 years straight, and taking out GULC for those 10 years, GULC would no longer be a T14. This is different from the M7, which would stay M7 regardless of usnews' opinion.

Source: http://lawschool.about.com/od/lawschool ... tp/T14.htm

[theotherone823]

All of this talk about t12 or whatever is crazy talk. You guys realize the whole reason for the t14 designation is the fact that the 14 top schools have been the same or relatively the same since the rankings first came out in the late 80s.

Now if you want to recommend not going to the 10 or 14th ranked school... that is fine.

No, it comes from the fact that there are 14 elite schools. USNWR reflects but did not create this.

I'm pretty sure USnews is the root of the T14 designation. I don't think anyone ever said T14 before the whole usnews thing. It's possible I'm wrong, but I've seen it proclaimed many times that the T14 really is just the result of the consistency of the usnews rankings. This differs from business schools, where you get the M7, which actually are the top 7 that also hold conferences every year etc. I think if usnews started putting UT in the T14 every year for 10 years straight, and taking out GULC for those 10 years, GULC would no longer be a T14. This is different from the M7, which would stay M7 regardless of usnews' opinion.

Source: http://lawschool.about.com/od/lawschool ... tp/T14.htm

The USNWR rankings may be where the term T14 originates, but the point is that the T14 are the most elite schools INDEPENDENT of the USNWR rankings. They aren't elite schools because they rank the highest on the USNWR rankings; rather the rankings are a reflection of the fact that these schools were already widely recognized and respected as the most elite law schools in the country before the rankings existed.

The schools' elite categorization causes them to rank highly on the USNWR rankings, not the other way around

[worldtraveler]

Wow this whole thread is the worst of law school/lawyers combined into one.

[McAvoy]

Wow this whole thread is the worst of lawyers combined into one.

Huh? You ever worked in a firm?