Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[quijotesca1011]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

Also something to consider: Yale, and to a lesser extent Harvard, have very high yields. Almost everyone who gets into these places gets a full ride at a top 14 school, many even at Columbia/Chicago. And yet, the far majority of them choose Y/H. Some of the people have rich parents; some of these people are acting irrationally. But I think the main reason they make a different decision than you would is that they have different preferences than you do.

Lawyers, law students, and prospective law students tend to be prestige whores, and this is the explanation you go with?

What? If someone values prestige, that is a preference of his or hers. I'm not really explaining anything, but rather suggesting that there is an explanation. If part of that explanation is prestige, then...okay? Some people derive pleasure from going to a more prestigious school.

I think one of the whole points of this thread is that pleasure in prestige is kind of dumb and not worth $300k, though. If you want that prestige to open specific doors, sure. Or if it doesn't cost any more, sure. But if it just makes you feel better about your degree, that's not a rational basis for choosing a school.

Also, just because not every K-JD is going to catapult into i-banking, that doesn't mean that there aren't other options for reasonable careers besides law school. I understand why law school looks to be more straightforward and an easier path to follow than starting in crap jobs and figuring out what other opportunities exist as you build skills and experience and so on. I've made career decisions for the same reasons. But that doesn't mean I don't think there weren't any other things I could have done besides law school. I just decided I wasn't willing to do them.

(And the whole "working $40K graduating college" meaning "$80k corporate drone decades later" is kinda flame. People's career paths change TONS over 10-20 years.)

[bk1]

Right, but I think people are generally well-informed. The "financing law school" discussion at Harvard's ASW was by far the most attended event. Also, the 'Harvard prestige' is immediate gratification, but something you can take advantage of for the rest of your life, too. I'm not a fan of these types of people for the record.

I agree that people are informed, but I don't think they're very good at actually making a choice that they would be happy with after the fact (they have the information but they lack the experience to properly evaluate that information). Consider the many times 0Ls claim "oh I can pay back 60-70k/year in loans while working in biglaw" yet the vast majority of biglawyers will tell you that that is an unrealistic goal, the number of people who go into top law schools wanting to do PI but end up at big firms, etc.

[emu42]

I would still like to know what percentage of graduating seniors/people who have been out and working in this economy 1-3 years (so it's a fair comparison) and went to HYS after taking out significant debt actually regret it. It just seems that we don't usually hear from them on these boards, we hear from people who tell us that those other people regret it.

I've never once seen anyone on this board say they regretted YS over lower T14 with discount. I don't read all the threads, and these are really small schools so its obviously not that meaningful in any way. I've seen maybe 2-3 anecdotes of people who took H at sticker and regret not taking CCNP with money.

FWIW no one I met at H's ASW (student or grad) regretted attending. Even the random people I went up to who didn't volunteer to talk to 0Ls. Everyone seemed to really like it. I think, once you have a number of great choices (say, Stanford vs. a full ride at Penn), you really can't go wrong, and you should go by what makes you happy (not by what TLS says).

[A. Nony Mouse]

Whether they like the school is not nearly the same as whether they think it would have been equally beneficial to go somewhere slightly less spiffy for less money, though.

[bk1]

In part because it's a particular choice because there are never scholarships (so as I said, it means that if taking loans is 'unacceptable' a huge percentage of people could never go to HYS) and in part because I do think that the opportunities, at least in certain fields, are indeed unique. I just think there's a particular anti-HYS trend on a lot of TLS threads I've seen recently, but it would be nice to actually hear from some people who went there and took out debt to know how many of them regret it.

I don't really agree about the "unique" comment at least in this way: for people who go to top 50 schools, biglaw would be "unique" in the sense that only a few of their students get that outcome, but at the T14 biglaw is no longer unique. Similarly very difficult to get positions are more plentiful at HYS, yet still attainable at lower T14s.

I think the anti-HYS trend has to do with the assumption that people are paying sticker there.

[aboutmydaylight]

I would still like to know what percentage of graduating seniors/people who have been out and working in this economy 1-3 years (so it's a fair comparison) and went to HYS after taking out significant debt actually regret it. It just seems that we don't usually hear from them on these boards, we hear from people who tell us that those other people regret it.

I've never once seen anyone on this board say they regretted YS over lower T14 with discount. I don't read all the threads, and these are really small schools so its obviously not that meaningful in any way. I've seen maybe 2-3 anecdotes of people who took H at sticker and regret not taking CCNP with money.

FWIW no one I met at H's ASW (student or grad) regretted attending. Even the random people I went up to who didn't volunteer to talk to 0Ls. Everyone seemed to really like it. I think, once you have a number of great choices (say, Stanford vs. a full ride at Penn), you really can't go wrong, and you should go by what makes you happy (not by what TLS says).

Yea but again, these aren't grads that have to pay down debt so it doesn't say much.

[aboutmydaylight]

Also, for whatever reason, I've noticed that people are pretty reluctant to give you a reasonable picture of their financial aid situation at HYS along with parental contribution. Unlike CCN and down where grants aren't related to your finances at all, people are much more secretive when it comes to talking about these things. Along with HYS often comes the assumption of sticker, when looking at the data, a good chunk of the class is getting grants, and another good chunk likely has good parental help.

[sublime]

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[quijotesca1011]

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[nouseforaname123]

As for working "a few years (or more)" in biglaw. Easier said than done. Most people who leave biglaw leave on their own accord within 3 to 5 years because they couldn't stand it. They are probably just as smart and hard working as you.

All I'm saying is that everyone is different. Some people need money more than others, and some people like money more than others. No one, I suggest, should go to law school just for the money.

I chose my law school based on its reputation, surrounding area, professors, and career prospects in every field, especially those outside of biglaw. Money was an issue too, but I was willing to turn down a substantial amount of scholarship in favor of enjoying my law school experience more and opening up more opportunities down the road. OP would call me stupid for doing this.

We are about two facts away from confirming that you're precisely the type of person this thread is trying to reach (assuming that your substantial foregone scholarship will be replaced with debt). The career prospects outside of biglaw from any particular school shouldn't matter all that much to the person financing the full COA. If you're carrying a high debt load, really strong odds that you're heading for biglaw.

[Cicero76]

Oh man. What was I thinking? If I had known that my English degree from BIG STATE U could have just parachuted me into I-Banking, I never would have gone to law school! I would have dropped out of the law school game as I lost the Ruby game and gone straight into $$$ at Finance or a Tech Startup.

I'll make sure I tell all my friends in college about these sweet jobs "any smart millennial" can get. The more you know. Thanks TLS!

Based on the school you go to, I am 90% sure you had other options (not that you made the wrong choice though)

You would be shocked at the lack of career options for a state university kid with pretty good standardized test scores and very good teacher recommendations and a humanities degree. For some reason there's nowhere to put those on job applications.

Granted, I didn't look super hard. But it seemed like I'd be lucky to pull down 40k anywhere, and I didn't like the look of that at all. I especially didn't like what that seemed to look like 10-20 years out--corporate drone making 80k? Gross

I feel you, as I am also a social sciences degree from a shitty Florida state school, although probably not as high a gpa.

Although, I didn't really look for much better, as I was perfectly content getting paid my 14 an hour at a job I could get wasted at and got to play videogames all night, that wasn't too bad at all

I mean I'm not gunna lie that does sound sweet

[emu42]

As for working "a few years (or more)" in biglaw. Easier said than done. Most people who leave biglaw leave on their own accord within 3 to 5 years because they couldn't stand it. They are probably just as smart and hard working as you.

All I'm saying is that everyone is different. Some people need money more than others, and some people like money more than others. No one, I suggest, should go to law school just for the money.

I chose my law school based on its reputation, surrounding area, professors, and career prospects in every field, especially those outside of biglaw. Money was an issue too, but I was willing to turn down a substantial amount of scholarship in favor of enjoying my law school experience more and opening up more opportunities down the road. OP would call me stupid for doing this.

We are about two facts away from confirming that you're precisely the type of person this thread is trying to reach (assuming that your substantial foregone scholarship will be replaced with debt). The career prospects outside of biglaw from any particular school shouldn't matter all that much to the person financing the full COA. If you're carrying a high debt load, really strong odds that you're heading for biglaw.

No, not a huge debt load. Regardless, basically no amount of money is worth me not getting the clerkship and academia job I (think I) want, whether now or down the road.

[IAFG]

Oh you want to become a tenured professor? That changes everything!

[nouseforaname123]

As for working "a few years (or more)" in biglaw. Easier said than done. Most people who leave biglaw leave on their own accord within 3 to 5 years because they couldn't stand it. They are probably just as smart and hard working as you.

All I'm saying is that everyone is different. Some people need money more than others, and some people like money more than others. No one, I suggest, should go to law school just for the money.

I chose my law school based on its reputation, surrounding area, professors, and career prospects in every field, especially those outside of biglaw. Money was an issue too, but I was willing to turn down a substantial amount of scholarship in favor of enjoying my law school experience more and opening up more opportunities down the road. OP would call me stupid for doing this.

We are about two facts away from confirming that you're precisely the type of person this thread is trying to reach (assuming that your substantial foregone scholarship will be replaced with debt). The career prospects outside of biglaw from any particular school shouldn't matter all that much to the person financing the full COA. If you're carrying a high debt load, really strong odds that you're heading for biglaw.

No, not a huge debt load. Regardless, basically no amount of money is worth me not getting the clerkship and academia job I (think I) want, whether now or down the road.

The point is that the debt is going to funnel you towards biglaw because biglaw is the most realistic option for taking care of the debt (and a few other reasons). TLS posting history is full of 0L/1Ls who swear the money doesn't matter and they aren't interested in going "corporate." A measurable and vocal percentage of your fellow 1Ls at your school will make it clear that they aren't there for the money. Then OCI rolls around and the vast, vast majority of those people end up gunning hard at OCI. This happens year after year, and that's where these types of threads come from.

Once you start biglaw to pay off the loans, all bets are off. Not saying you can't/won't work your way back to academia from biglaw, but a ridiculously low number of people successfully make that transition. I haven't worked biglaw long enough to tell you why, but I suspect that it has a lot to do with the significant differences between practicing law in a corporate setting and academia.

[Dafaq]

To me the formula is…. on a 10 year payout your monthly debt service should not exceed $1,000. Period. If you can attend HYS or CCNP using that formula, terrific. If you can’t then dip down, but stay in the tier 1 or a strong regional tier 2. If you cannot accomplish that, retake the LSAT. If that doesn’t work, do yourself a big favor, move on.

[sublime]

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[aboutmydaylight]

To me the formula is…. on a 10 year payout your monthly debt service should not exceed $1,000. Period. If you can attend HYS or CCNP using that formula, terrific. If you can’t then dip down, but stay in the tier 1 or a strong regional tier 2. If you cannot accomplish that, retake the LSAT. If that doesn’t work, do yourself a big favor, move on.

You realize that literally means around ~90k debt at graduation right? This is probably barely covering COL. There's only like 100 students a year that have that luxury...

[sublime]

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[izha]

ITT people who never had a chance at YSH will tell you that those who were accepted are idiots.

[IAFG]

ITT people who never had a chance at YSH will tell you that those who were accepted are idiots.

Funny how we all end up in the same shitty boat in the end tho.

[NYSprague]

ITT people who never had a chance at YSH will tell you that those who were accepted are idiots.

CCN and the rest of the T14 is plenty prestigious. No one ever talks about where they went to school. I don't know where any of the partners went other than one guy who is legendary for his brilliance at ending up 3rd at Harvard without ever doing any work. He is still the same.

Getting accepted doesn't make you an idiot. Not understanding debt doesn't make you an idiot, just uninformed, which I thought was the point of this thread.

I still don't know why people are so defensive. I guess maybe they need to justify why they are borrowing a large amount of money, that they will be repaying for 20 years.

I've been arguing against taking on massive debt for a long time now and many 0Ls are getting the message. Still, many people just won't listen. DF and Rayiner are saying that repaying debt is much harder than they expected.I think that is worth listening to.

[EquallyWrong]

ITT people who never had a chance at YSH will tell you that those who were accepted are idiots.

Funny how we all end up in the same shitty boat in the end tho.

all aboard the titanic.

[NYSprague]

Oh man. What was I thinking? If I had known that my English degree from BIG STATE U could have just parachuted me into I-Banking, I never would have gone to law school! I would have dropped out of the law school game as I lost the Ruby game and gone straight into $$$ at Finance or a Tech Startup.

I'll make sure I tell all my friends in college about these sweet jobs "any smart millennial" can get. The more you know. Thanks TLS!

Based on the school you go to, I am 90% sure you had other options (not that you made the wrong choice though)

You would be shocked at the lack of career options for a state university kid with pretty good standardized test scores and very good teacher recommendations and a humanities degree. For some reason there's nowhere to put those on job applications.

Granted, I didn't look super hard. But it seemed like I'd be lucky to pull down 40k anywhere, and I didn't like the look of that at all. I especially didn't like what that seemed to look like 10-20 years out--corporate drone making 80k? Gross

The last paragraph is part of the problem here. I'm not sure what practicing law means to most 0Ls, but a lot of it is corporate drone stuff done under intense time pressure (even for most partners.)

I know you go to Yale, so perhaps this doesn't apply, but you do understand that many current students, including those at T14s, may not make more than 80k in 10 years. Not all of them will have these salaries by choice, but it is the best they can do.

Check the bimodal distribution again and don't assume T14 guarantees you will be at the front end.

[3L2014]

This thread misses the issue. Its not whether HYS at sticker is worth it (it isnt, you shouldnt go to HYS unless you get need-based/parental help). But sticker at the rest of the T13 can be worth it. If you are a 0L who wants to work in NY, and you have the option of sticker at T13 or 90k scholly at WUSTL, hell if Im not taking T13