So you want to do PI? Forum

[worldtraveler]

I also disagree with twenty that big law experience is not relevant for PI. In terms of direct services representation where you do client intake, no it's probably not. But for working on impact litigation like at CCR or the ACLU it's absolutely relevant. It's also really relevant for people working on consumer protection or other PI issues that are closely related to business.

I should have made myself more clear then, because I certainly believe that biglaw experience is relevant to many PI legal outlets. ACLU (staff attorney hires) in particular, however, seems to explicitly require 2-3 years of immigration/human rights/constitutional law background, which I'd imagine is pretty hard to get from what would commonly be considered "biglaw."

Pretty sure they count pro bono for that. I don't know how you would get that otherwise, because very few places actually do human rights or con law litigation in a strict sense. Probably 75% of it is done with firm pro bono partners.

[BlueLotus]

Anyone here apply for Immigrant Justice Corps? Beside the requisite "dedicated commitment", what do they look for?

[loomstate]

I want to prosecute white-collar crime (ie insider trading etc). Is that an unrealistic pipe dream from HYSCCN?

[twenty]

I want to prosecute white-collar crime (ie insider trading etc). Is that an unrealistic pipe dream from HYSCCN?

You almost certainly won't get that exact job coming out of law school, (because federal prosecution usually requires legal experience), but going to HYS (<- especially) CCN certainly increases your chances of getting a job that will one day help you get into a spot like that.

[Shortterm12]

Does anyone have any opinions on what would be the best non-HYSCCNB school for someone with strong SF ties to get SF PI/Gov? Lower T14 with $$$?

Thanks!

[twenty]

Depends on the PI/gov and depends on the ties. Care to elaborate a bit more?

[Shortterm12]

Depends on the PI/gov and depends on the ties. Care to elaborate a bit more?

Thanks for the response Twenty! My dream would be SF PD but my understanding is that they don't hire straight out of law school? Also, I'm sure that is a pipe dream. I would realistically take nearly any PI/Gov position (DA, City Attorney, etc. would all be great, but less prestigious/lower-paying jobs would be fine). No law ties but strong ties to the city.

[twenty]

Considering the shape California's budget's in (and how desirable SF is), definitely understand that SF is probably one of the single most competitive regions in the country. While in most markets the top regional (non-T14) school is a solid choice for gov/PI, Hastings does not really meet that criteria super well unless you have fantastic ties. When you say "strong ties" I'm guessing you're not talking about your dad as the city's PD or your uncle is Edwin Lee. Ties are always helpful, but face time with the organization you want to work for is more critical.

That said, I feel like you can go about this in a variety of ways.

1) Attend a T14 school at a reasonably low cost and gun for biglaw in SF/SV. In an ideal world, you get it, and then you go from SF biglaw to SF city government a few years later. Alternatively, a ton of federal agencies have attorney spots in SF and do hire laterals out of biglaw fairly regularly. If your GPA is terrible, Northwestern will probably still get you to where you want to go.

2) Get a job with the City of San Francisco and/or get veteran's preference so you guarantee yourself priority hire at all the jobs. Get a ton of scholarship money from USF's part time program and insist on stipulations being removed. Work full time and do school at night. Hustle and mooch your way into an attorney gig or, more likely, your JD will end up being a line on your resume -- but hey, since you got it for free and you're working for the city/some PI organization, what the hell. The City also pays tremendously well for JD advantage spots, so suck it up.

3) Resign to not getting into San Francisco and gun for the surrounding areas. Contra Costa, Marin and Alameda counties are far more accessible for someone gunning for them. If you extern during a semester and spend all your vacation/summer time volunteering for one of these PDs, I wouldn't be surprised if you got in. Live in SF and reverse commute if you absolutely must live in the city. Would probably recommend the best school you can get at the lowest cost you can get -- UCLA would likely be a good option here.

4) Attend UC Hastings full time for free and put everything you have into getting SF DA. Be prepared to be volunteering for 2+ years after you graduate, so it'd be ideal to have family members in the area that can house/feed you during that time.

[Shortterm12]

Considering the shape California's budget's in (and how desirable SF is), definitely understand that SF is probably one of the single most competitive regions in the country. While in most markets the top regional (non-T14) school is a solid choice for gov/PI, Hastings does not really meet that criteria super well unless you have fantastic ties. When you say "strong ties" I'm guessing you're not talking about your dad as the city's PD or your uncle is Edwin Lee. Ties are always helpful, but face time with the organization you want to work for is more critical.

That said, I feel like you can go about this in a variety of ways.

1) Attend a T14 school at a reasonably low cost and gun for biglaw in SF/SV. In an ideal world, you get it, and then you go from SF biglaw to SF city government a few years later. Alternatively, a ton of federal agencies have attorney spots in SF and do hire laterals out of biglaw fairly regularly. If your GPA is terrible, Northwestern will probably still get you to where you want to go.

2) Get a job with the City of San Francisco and/or get veteran's preference so you guarantee yourself priority hire at all the jobs. Get a ton of scholarship money from USF's part time program and insist on stipulations being removed. Work full time and do school at night. Hustle and mooch your way into an attorney gig or, more likely, your JD will end up being a line on your resume -- but hey, since you got it for free and you're working for the city/some PI organization, what the hell. The City also pays tremendously well for JD advantage spots, so suck it up.

3) Resign to not getting into San Francisco and gun for the surrounding areas. Contra Costa, Marin and Alameda counties are far more accessible for someone gunning for them. If you extern during a semester and spend all your vacation/summer time volunteering for one of these PDs, I wouldn't be surprised if you got in. Live in SF and reverse commute if you absolutely must live in the city. Would probably recommend the best school you can get at the lowest cost you can get -- UCLA would likely be a good option here.

4) Attend UC Hastings full time for free and put everything you have into getting SF DA. Be prepared to be volunteering for 2+ years after you graduate, so it'd be ideal to have family members in the area that can house/feed you during that time.

That was extremely informative, thank you for taking the time to give me that dose of realism. I think that everyone I've talked to in SF has been far too optimistic with regards to getting SF/PI. It looks like I'll be trying to break into Marin/Alameda or SF Biglaw.

USF scares me way too much (I think it has the second lowest employment rating in the nation?) and I've heard that UC Hastings is quite stingy with scholarship money. I have been fortunate enough to get some T14 schools for a COA of around $40-50K after sharing the cost so I think I'm going to roll the dice. I did not apply to UCLA because I was not too impressed by their employment figures.

[EastCoastBias]

What's the outlook for Boston PD? Did undergrad in the area, love it, and am fully committed to public defense (saw something about "True Believers" on one of these threads that fits me to a 'T'). Worried about the future of PSLF, so weighing prestige vs. scholarships and would love some feedback.

How would WUSTL/Vandy type school with some money (waiting on $ from WUSTL and decision from Vandy) compare to BC/BU (waiting on decisions), Northeastern (90k total scholarship plus co-op stipends for PI) or Georgetown (waiting on decision)?

Stats are 3.1x with strong upward trend and 174, non-URM.

Thanks in advance!

[spleenworship]

What's the outlook for Boston PD? Did undergrad in the area, love it, and am fully committed to public defense (saw something about "True Believers" on one of these threads that fits me to a 'T'). Worried about the future of PSLF, so weighing prestige vs. scholarships and would love some feedback.

How would WUSTL/Vandy type school with some money (waiting on $ from WUSTL and decision from Vandy) compare to BC/BU (waiting on decisions), Northeastern (90k total scholarship plus co-op stipends for PI) or Georgetown (waiting on decision)?

Stats are 3.1x with strong upward trend and 174, non-URM.

Thanks in advance!

i would absolutely try to stay local under these circumstances. Normally I wouldn't say this, but Northeastern might even be worth your time here, depending on the stipulations of that scholarship.

ETA: that said, limiting yourself to only one office might be too big a risk, and so Northeastern may be less desirable than BS/BU since those are slightly more portable.

The only Northeastern grad I've met in my home state started by working on a reservation. Hard, low paying work.

[EastCoastBias]

i would absolutely try to stay local under these circumstances. Normally I wouldn't say this, but Northeastern might even be worth your time here, depending on the stipulations of that scholarship.

ETA: that said, limiting yourself to only one office might be too big a risk, and so Northeastern may be less desirable than BS/BU since those are slightly more portable.

The only Northeastern grad I've met in my home state started by working on a reservation. Hard, low paying work.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm hoping to negotiate the scholarship up a little more, but the good news is there are not stips on it... I'm thinking an admission to either BC or BU might help me get a little more out of the Northeastern scholly - is that reasonable to expect?

[spleenworship]

i would absolutely try to stay local under these circumstances. Normally I wouldn't say this, but Northeastern might even be worth your time here, depending on the stipulations of that scholarship.

ETA: that said, limiting yourself to only one office might be too big a risk, and so Northeastern may be less desirable than BS/BU since those are slightly more portable.

The only Northeastern grad I've met in my home state started by working on a reservation. Hard, low paying work.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm hoping to negotiate the scholarship up a little more, but the good news is there are not stips on it... I'm thinking an admission to either BC or BU might help me get a little more out of the Northeastern scholly - is that reasonable to expect?

Four years ago Northeastern refuse to negotiate with me. I have no idea what the current policy is there.

Do you have work experience? Have you considered Northwestern? You would be nationally portable to a variety of PI jobs. You might not want to limit yourself to one location. These jobs are not easy to get.


ETA: and yes, I'm changing my position. If you absolutely will not work anywhere else, stay local. But I'm asking you to consider a more portable JD.

[EastCoastBias]

i would absolutely try to stay local under these circumstances. Normally I wouldn't say this, but Northeastern might even be worth your time here, depending on the stipulations of that scholarship.

ETA: that said, limiting yourself to only one office might be too big a risk, and so Northeastern may be less desirable than BS/BU since those are slightly more portable.

The only Northeastern grad I've met in my home state started by working on a reservation. Hard, low paying work.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm hoping to negotiate the scholarship up a little more, but the good news is there are not stips on it... I'm thinking an admission to either BC or BU might help me get a little more out of the Northeastern scholly - is that reasonable to expect?

Four years ago Northeastern refuse to negotiate with me. I have no idea what the current policy is there.

Do you have work experience? Have you considered Northwestern? You would be nationally portable to a variety of PI jobs. You might not want to limit yourself to one location. These jobs are not easy to get.


ETA: and yes, I'm changing my position. If you absolutely will not work anywhere else, stay local. But I'm asking you to consider a more portable JD.

Good to know that they may not be willing to negotiate.

I don't have any full-time work experience; I would be going K-JD if I enroll in the fall, but I do have a fair amount of internship experience both during the school year and summers for what that's worth. Do you think Northwestern would be realistic for me without work experience? I had assumed I would be out of the running for T14 based on my GPA until I got my LSAT score, and even now I'm thinking it probably wouldn't be enough. But obviously there are people here with lots more knowledge than I have, and there wasn't much in the way of comparables that I could find online, so that's why I'm asking for guidance.

[worldtraveler]

i would absolutely try to stay local under these circumstances. Normally I wouldn't say this, but Northeastern might even be worth your time here, depending on the stipulations of that scholarship.

ETA: that said, limiting yourself to only one office might be too big a risk, and so Northeastern may be less desirable than BS/BU since those are slightly more portable.

The only Northeastern grad I've met in my home state started by working on a reservation. Hard, low paying work.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm hoping to negotiate the scholarship up a little more, but the good news is there are not stips on it... I'm thinking an admission to either BC or BU might help me get a little more out of the Northeastern scholly - is that reasonable to expect?

Four years ago Northeastern refuse to negotiate with me. I have no idea what the current policy is there.

Do you have work experience? Have you considered Northwestern? You would be nationally portable to a variety of PI jobs. You might not want to limit yourself to one location. These jobs are not easy to get.


ETA: and yes, I'm changing my position. If you absolutely will not work anywhere else, stay local. But I'm asking you to consider a more portable JD.

Good to know that they may not be willing to negotiate.

I don't have any full-time work experience; I would be going K-JD if I enroll in the fall, but I do have a fair amount of internship experience both during the school year and summers for what that's worth. Do you think Northwestern would be realistic for me without work experience? I had assumed I would be out of the running for T14 based on my GPA until I got my LSAT score, and even now I'm thinking it probably wouldn't be enough. But obviously there are people here with lots more knowledge than I have, and there wasn't much in the way of comparables that I could find online, so that's why I'm asking for guidance.

I would absolutely advise anyone who wants PI to get work experience.

[spleenworship]

i would absolutely try to stay local under these circumstances. Normally I wouldn't say this, but Northeastern might even be worth your time here, depending on the stipulations of that scholarship.

ETA: that said, limiting yourself to only one office might be too big a risk, and so Northeastern may be less desirable than BS/BU since those are slightly more portable.

The only Northeastern grad I've met in my home state started by working on a reservation. Hard, low paying work.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm hoping to negotiate the scholarship up a little more, but the good news is there are not stips on it... I'm thinking an admission to either BC or BU might help me get a little more out of the Northeastern scholly - is that reasonable to expect?

Four years ago Northeastern refuse to negotiate with me. I have no idea what the current policy is there.

Do you have work experience? Have you considered Northwestern? You would be nationally portable to a variety of PI jobs. You might not want to limit yourself to one location. These jobs are not easy to get.


ETA: and yes, I'm changing my position. If you absolutely will not work anywhere else, stay local. But I'm asking you to consider a more portable JD.

Good to know that they may not be willing to negotiate.

I don't have any full-time work experience; I would be going K-JD if I enroll in the fall, but I do have a fair amount of internship experience both during the school year and summers for what that's worth. Do you think Northwestern would be realistic for me without work experience? I had assumed I would be out of the running for T14 based on my GPA until I got my LSAT score, and even now I'm thinking it probably wouldn't be enough. But obviously there are people here with lots more knowledge than I have, and there wasn't much in the way of comparables that I could find online, so that's why I'm asking for guidance.

Northwestern is splitter friendly. But without actual, non-internship, work experience it probably isn't worth the application fee.

[The Dark Shepard]

Maybe not the right place to ask, but is the reason UMN doesn't have a high government/PI rate compared to other similar regional schools due to self-selection or is there not much in the MSP area?

[EastCoastBias]

Northwestern is splitter friendly. But without actual, non-internship, work experience it probably isn't worth the application fee.

Thanks again, I appreciate the honest and thoughtful feedback. Hopefully in the next week or two I hear back on some other workable options.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Maybe not the right place to ask, but is the reason UMN doesn't have a high government/PI rate compared to other similar regional schools due to self-selection or is there not much in the MSP area?

Probably the former.

First off, government hiring is everywhere, and government hiring in included in the PI score. DA, PD, AG, state gov, that's everywhere. True PI is like non profit, special interest, NGO, etcetera. There are clumps of activity in true PI in different parts of the country. Even if there is little activity in Minn, I have no idea, you could try to get a grant or school to pay for you to do summers elsewhere.

Basically UMN is fine for PI. PI is 90% activity by the student, not what school the student attends. So blah blah self selection. You're welcome.

[FlanAl]

What's the outlook for Boston PD? Did undergrad in the area, love it, and am fully committed to public defense (saw something about "True Believers" on one of these threads that fits me to a 'T'). Worried about the future of PSLF, so weighing prestige vs. scholarships and would love some feedback.

How would WUSTL/Vandy type school with some money (waiting on $ from WUSTL and decision from Vandy) compare to BC/BU (waiting on decisions), Northeastern (90k total scholarship plus co-op stipends for PI) or Georgetown (waiting on decision)?

Stats are 3.1x with strong upward trend and 174, non-URM.

Thanks in advance!

Look into schools with LRAPS that don't tie into PSLF. From what I remember Vandy's LRAP is pretty terrible, but they may be more flexible with the scholarship if you make it clear to them that you want to go PD. The public defender system in Massachusetts is kinda weird and applying for a job there was super weird. Depending on the LRAP situation it may map more sense to go to a t14 than say BC with a 1/3 scholarship or something. I'm not sure that staying local will be all that helpful because from what I've hear CPCS basically never hires anyone for their Boston office right out of law school (I could be wrong on that but its at least what I heard).

[yeslekkkk]

Question for alum working in PI or current students going into PI:

I have previous work experience working with refugees and asylees. I'm very interested in pursuing PI with a focus on that. If I can't get that, I would like to do Legal Aid or work at a non-profit doing legal services. I am currently debating between University of Michigan (170K in loans) vs. UC Davis (54K in loans) vs. University of Arizona (0K in loans). I am from CA. I'm intersted in PI in CA or pursuing PI somewhere else if I can't work in CA. How important is prestige? Should I go to Michigan and hope to use LRAP (even though the future is never certain)? Or go to a different school?

[worldtraveler]

Question for alum working in PI or current students going into PI:

I have previous work experience working with refugees and asylees. I'm very interested in pursuing PI with a focus on that. If I can't get that, I would like to do Legal Aid or work at a non-profit doing legal services. I am currently debating between University of Michigan (170K in loans) vs. UC Davis (54K in loans) vs. University of Arizona (0K in loans). I am from CA. I'm intersted in PI in CA or pursuing PI somewhere else if I can't work in CA. How important is prestige? Should I go to Michigan and hope to use LRAP (even though the future is never certain)? Or go to a different school?

Go to Davis. They have postgrad fellowships. That kind of PI isn't as prestige obsessed either. It will just be tough to get your first job, hence the need for a fellowship.

Language skills will be absolutely crucial though. If you are not fluent in Spanish or something else useful (in CA, mainly Asian languages), then do that before you go.

[FlanAl]

Looks like Mich's lrap ties you into the government 10 year plan BUT it looks like they help you out if you go private sector too and also if you're self employed. I would go through this document in detail https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... MangPP.pdf and then get the financial aid person at Michigan to explain it even better.

Definitely look through all of the LRAP articles and talk to financial aid folks at all of your options. The calculation on TLS is generally lowest COA combined with highest LST numbers, but for PI folks it needs to be more nuanced.

[yeslekkkk]

Looks like Mich's lrap ties you into the government 10 year plan BUT it looks like they help you out if you go private sector too and also if you're self employed. I would go through this document in detail https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... MangPP.pdf and then get the financial aid person at Michigan to explain it even better.

Definitely look through all of the LRAP articles and talk to financial aid folks at all of your options. The calculation on TLS is generally lowest COA combined with highest LST numbers, but for PI folks it needs to be more nuanced.

I talked face to face with the financial aid director at Michigan. She made it seem really doable. The LRAP program is tied to IBR/PAYE, but it's pretty extensive. It makes the debt look much less frightening. However, the question will be if I want to walk around with that much debt, knowing I've tied myself to a certain path.

Question for alum working in PI or current students going into PI:

I have previous work experience working with refugees and asylees. I'm very interested in pursuing PI with a focus on that. If I can't get that, I would like to do Legal Aid or work at a non-profit doing legal services. I am currently debating between University of Michigan (170K in loans) vs. UC Davis (54K in loans) vs. University of Arizona (0K in loans). I am from CA. I'm intersted in PI in CA or pursuing PI somewhere else if I can't work in CA. How important is prestige? Should I go to Michigan and hope to use LRAP (even though the future is never certain)? Or go to a different school?

Go to Davis. They have postgrad fellowships. That kind of PI isn't as prestige obsessed either. It will just be tough to get your first job, hence the need for a fellowship.

Language skills will be absolutely crucial though. If you are not fluent in Spanish or something else useful (in CA, mainly Asian languages), then do that before you go.

Thanks for the insight. I'm glad to know Davis is a reasonable option. The amount of debt from Davis is less daunting.

[Elleonleo]

This thread has single handedly made the rest of my TLS-ing worth it. Thanks everyone.

Twenty, I was wondering where you saw the list of previous ACLU fellows? Or lists of any other fellowships?

Thanks,