So what makes Alabama a T30 law school? Forum

[CE2JD]

The USNWR rankings are totally irrelevant after you get passed the top25.

/thread

[wired]

just...wow...

Yeah, but it's actually a really, really good school for the price. The majority of the people going there were probably already following the goofy Mormon laws before law school, so it's not that much of an imposition. LDS members can go to BYU Law for less than $10k/yr. Tack on COA and you're probably looking at less than $60k for three years of law school. Not bad for a tier one school. More than half of the university is funded by LDS church donations, so that's how they're keeping fees so low.

BYU undergrad who will apply to BYU's law school. One super minor correction: diet coke is fine. Regular coke is fine. (Regular cocaine = not fine). Yeah, we refer to "goofy Mormon laws" as "commandments from God," but either way you cut it, if you attend BYU you would be asked to live by the standards the Church espouses, including no alcohol, coffee, extramarital sex, etc.

And the cost for non-LDS students is a bit higher, but is still incredibly low (lower than $14-16k/year I believe). I definitely don't recommend the school for anyone who does not like the idea of religion pervading the community that he/she lives in or influencing school policy - it absolutely does at BYU. If you are okay with that, people are accepting of other religions and BYU has some great placement numbers.

[Aberzombie1892]

The USNWR rankings are totally irrelevant after you get passed the top14.

/thread

Fixed.


The only people that think otherwise are people that ended up in the 15-25 range and want to feel special inside.

[wired]

The one thing that Emory does have a clear leg up on UGA is farther reach (especially when it comes to NYC). Federal clerkships are around the same, Emory gets a little better placement into biglaw, etc. but for the median student at each school, there really isn't going to be that big of a difference. The starkest difference will probably be when comparing the top quarters of each class.

You, of course, have absolutely zero evidence or reason to support your assertion that "the starkest difference will probably be when comparing the top quarters of each class." As the numbers show, as a percentage of their respective classes, UGA placed around 50% more of its class in Federal clerkships than Emory (I learned the exact number through a phone to UGA Career Services. Place a call or email yourself if you'd like to dispute this). From 2000-2009, UGA ranked in the top 10 in Supreme Court clerkship placement. Emory has never in its history placed a student in a US Supreme Court clerkship. UGA has placed students in SCOTUS clerkships 4 out of the last 5 years.

Are these some of the "stark" differences you're alluding to in the difference between the top quarters of the class? I guess the Emory students are just simply turning down SCOTUS and other Federal clerkship for better opportunities.

Any with regard to Emory's "farther reach," 82.22% of 22.48% of Emory grads went to New York and New York State, which means 18.5% of those employed went, which means 18.5% of the 88.85% employed went, which means 16.4% went to New York State and NYC. It's funny how Emory conveniently left unclarified is how many went to New York City and how many went to New York state.

Another thing to consider is the fact the Emory grads leaving Atlanta are not going to major legal markets and making biglaw market (145-160K) or else their average starting salaries wouldn't be $20,000 below the Atlanta biglaw average of 145K. So, yeah, more Emory grads leave the region, but what kind of jobs are they getting.

Regarding Big Law Placement: (http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf)

Not sure what the point of brining up SCOTUS clerkships is. Doesn't Alito pluck people out of BYU, or something? No reasonable person would argue that BYU is better than any of the top 15-20 schools in the nation that have fewer SCOTUS clerks.

Alito and Thomas have. (Alito's had two already and Thomas had one.) And a reasonable person who was incredibly biased might try to argue that... but then it's probably true that someone who is incredibly biased, isn't reasonable so it's a contradiction in terms.Yeah, T1-T20 > BYU.

[Helmholtz]

BYU undergrad who will apply to BYU's law school. One super minor correction: diet coke is fine. Regular coke is fine. (Regular cocaine = not fine). .

I thought that tea and coffee were banned because of the caffeine content. I mean, if you're gonna ban tea, which has been proven to have many, many health benefits, then I don't see why something like Diet Coke would be allowed. Tea, coffee, and red wine have all been shown to have health benefits. Why does the Mormon church not want its people to be healthy? I can understand the tobacco rule, but the others?

[CE2JD]

BYU undergrad who will apply to BYU's law school. One super minor correction: diet coke is fine. Regular coke is fine. (Regular cocaine = not fine). .

I thought that tea and coffee were banned because of the caffeine content. I mean, if you're gonna ban tea, which has been proven to have many, many health benefits, then I don't see why something like Diet Coke would be allowed. Tea, coffee, and red wine have all been shown to have health benefits. Why does the Mormon church not want its people to be healthy? I can understand the tobacco rule, but the others?

Ahh yes, the widely held medical fact that the health benefits of alcohol consumption greatly outweigh the negative health consequences.

And also... the Mormon health law not only bans tea, coffee, etc. but also encourages general good health.

[General Tso]

does BYU accept thetans as well as superthetans or superthetans only? If so, what is the tuition for thetans

[Helmholtz]

BYU undergrad who will apply to BYU's law school. One super minor correction: diet coke is fine. Regular coke is fine. (Regular cocaine = not fine). .

I thought that tea and coffee were banned because of the caffeine content. I mean, if you're gonna ban tea, which has been proven to have many, many health benefits, then I don't see why something like Diet Coke would be allowed. Tea, coffee, and red wine have all been shown to have health benefits. Why does the Mormon church not want its people to be healthy? I can understand the tobacco rule, but the others?

Ahh yes, the widely held medical fat that the health benefits of alcohol consumption greatly outweigh the negative health consequences.

And also... the Mormon health law not only bans tea, coffee, etc. but also encourages general good health.

Can't they just ban all alcohol except for red wine and only in moderation? And the negative health consequences of tea?

[ruleser]

The USNWR rankings are totally irrelevant after you get passed the top14.

/thread

Fixed.


The only people that think otherwise are people that ended up in the 15-25 range and want to feel special inside.

There should be different tiers to the rankings as all know: 1) National; 2) Top regionals - and these shouldn't be compared to each other but within each market; and then 3) T3/T4

The numbers are not just somewhat off, they are fully irrelevant - got to Alabama and then try to practice in Chicago or LA. For LA, you're even better with Soutnwestern than Alabama in all liklihood, and that's a T3/T4. Just consider the USNWR beyond maybe 17 as just and in/out lg - is the school you are considering in your region a top regional or just a regional. If it's on the list, it's in the top regional tier, if not, it's not. First school in your region outside the T14 is the best regional, 2nd is the 2nd best, etc. That's the best way to use the rankings I think...

[de5igual]

The USNWR rankings are totally irrelevant after you get passed the top14.

/thread

Fixed.


The only people that think otherwise are people that ended up in the 15-25 range and want to feel special inside.

right...because tulane will soon ascend to #15 and break #14.

[wired]

BYU undergrad who will apply to BYU's law school. One super minor correction: diet coke is fine. Regular coke is fine. (Regular cocaine = not fine). .

I thought that tea and coffee were banned because of the caffeine content. I mean, if you're gonna ban tea, which has been proven to have many, many health benefits, then I don't see why something like Diet Coke would be allowed. Tea, coffee, and red wine have all been shown to have health benefits. Why does the Mormon church not want its people to be healthy? I can understand the tobacco rule, but the others?

Tea, coffee, alcohol, tobacco are all banned because Joseph Smith (who members of our Church believe to be a prophet in the same vein that Moses was a prophet) received what we believe was a revelation on the subject. The code of health is meant to set guidelines to help all people live a healthy life-style, but why "x" was included boils down to it being a matter of revelation. Many people suspect that it's because of the caffeine, and that's why some members of our church individually choose not to drink sode containing caffeine, but it's not the church's doctrine.

While this whole health code has a few specifics (tea, coffee, tobacco, alcohol, etc.) it isn't meant as the end-all statement on health. While those are strictly stated, members of the Church are encouraged to be judicious in their dieting and lifestyle. (It generally has been a success - members of the LDS church who obey the admonitions on health have a life expectancy that is 8-11 years longer - > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract, cite from Wikipedia)

[Blindmelon]

The USNWR rankings are totally irrelevant after you get passed the top14.

/thread

Fixed.


The only people that think otherwise are people that ended up in the 15-25 range and want to feel special inside.

I guess so. Although there is a mountain of difference between Fordham and 'Dozo/BLS/NYLS... same with GW and American/Catholic.

[funkblaster]

So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

They recently installed an exclusive pool for law students....

--ImageRemoved--

I love this picture, but I believe it was taken in New Orleans. Isn't that a Tulane diploma in her right hand?

[gorrillaunit18]

mormons are jew wannabes

What does that even mean?

[TTH]

So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

They recently installed an exclusive pool for law students....

--ImageRemoved--

I love this picture, but I believe it was taken in New Orleans. Isn't that a Tulane diploma in her right hand?

Of all the things they could've saved from their house, they got the beer. Given it's prominence in the picture, this pic should be used as an ad for Keystone Ice.

[zettsscores40]

How do they enforce the rule of no caffeine, tea, alcohol, etc?

I'm not trying to troll, I'm generally curious.

[Aberzombie1892]

I see Tulane is receiving a lot of love in this thread.

U of Alabama is the best school in Alabama by far. However, in my mind, I see it on par with U of Mississippi/LSU (Alabama simply gamed the rankings like everyone else - but I am impressed at its medians; Alabama must have plenty of people that do above average on the LSAT).

Anyway the rankings are only really good for comparing schools in similar regions (beyond the top14). It would be idiotic to use the rankings as a "straight line" - X school is better than Y school because it is a few spots higher on the list.

For example, NY (in state) school rankings would be: Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Fordham, Yeshiva, Brooklyn, etc etc.

Traditionally, George Washington is ranked higher than Fordham.

Does that make it better than Fordham overall? No.
Better than Fordham for New York? No.
Better than Fordham for Big Law placement? No.

For example, Texas (in state) school rankings would be: U of Texas, SMU, U of Houston, Baylor U, etc etc.

Emory has always been ranked higher than SMU as far as I know.

Does that make it better than SMU overall? No.
Does it make it better than SMU for Texas? No.
Does it make it better than SMU for Big Law placement? Slightly. In 2005, Emory put 4% more in Big Law (according to the amlaw.com composite).


My whole point is straight line uses of the US News rankings is stupid beyond the Top14. It can be used to compare schools in the same state and possibly a similar region; however, people will obsess over it and make terrible decisions based on uneducated guesses.

[wired]

How do they enforce the rule of no caffeine, tea, alcohol, etc?

I'm not trying to troll, I'm generally curious.

For clarification, they don't have a rule against caffeine. I work at a BYU department and pretty much all of my co-workers grab Mountain Dew for lunch. (Some individuals choose not to drink caffeine because they personally believe it's healthier for them to avoid it.)

As for enforcing rules against tea and alcohol, it's enforced primarily by the Honor Code Office (HCO). The HCO takes reports from any student, faculty, or roommates about students who aren't complying with the Honor Code. If no one ever reports you, then you'd never have any action taken against you (so long as you don't show up on BYU campus half-drunk or with pot on you). If any legal action is taken against you (e.g. DUI) that gets reported to the University, you'd also have action taken.

A few things. Just because someone is reported doesn't mean the HCO necessarily accepts the report as fact. They may ask the student about it, but if there's nothing to back up a claim, they generally dismiss it. Second, even if a student does violate that, the HCO will permit the student to stay, but may have a probationary period. It's definitely WAY more strict than 95% of schools, but it is not an undercover agency trying to destroy students' lives.

[sbalive]

This doesn't make sense. Why would they ban coffee but not caffeinated soda (which is what 7th day Adventists do - some of them even think it's holy to avoid mustard and pepper). What do Mormons think is bad about coffee and tea but not bad about coke? This seems like sophistry. (And I could have sworn that Mormons I've known didn't drink Mountain Dew and coke, so maybe it's just BYU regs?)

As for Alabama, it does have well reputed faculty. But basically if you look at the US News score computations, because everything is relative to Yale, they are so clustered at this point that the rankings are meaningless.

BYU undergrad who will apply to BYU's law school. One super minor correction: diet coke is fine. Regular coke is fine. (Regular cocaine = not fine). .

I thought that tea and coffee were banned because of the caffeine content. I mean, if you're gonna ban tea, which has been proven to have many, many health benefits, then I don't see why something like Diet Coke would be allowed. Tea, coffee, and red wine have all been shown to have health benefits. Why does the Mormon church not want its people to be healthy? I can understand the tobacco rule, but the others?

Tea, coffee, alcohol, tobacco are all banned because Joseph Smith (who members of our Church believe to be a prophet in the same vein that Moses was a prophet) received what we believe was a revelation on the subject. The code of health is meant to set guidelines to help all people live a healthy life-style, but why "x" was included boils down to it being a matter of revelation. Many people suspect that it's because of the caffeine, and that's why some members of our church individually choose not to drink sode containing caffeine, but it's not the church's doctrine.

While this whole health code has a few specifics (tea, coffee, tobacco, alcohol, etc.) it isn't meant as the end-all statement on health. While those are strictly stated, members of the Church are encouraged to be judicious in their dieting and lifestyle. (It generally has been a success - members of the LDS church who obey the admonitions on health have a life expectancy that is 8-11 years longer - > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract, cite from Wikipedia)

[Blindmelon]

I see Tulane is receiving a lot of love in this thread.

U of Alabama is the best school in Alabama by far. However, in my mind, I see it on par with U of Mississippi/LSU (Alabama simply gamed the rankings like everyone else - but I am impressed at its medians; Alabama must have plenty of people that do above average on the LSAT).

Anyway the rankings are only really good for comparing schools in similar regions (beyond the top14). It would be idiotic to use the rankings as a "straight line" - X school is better than Y school because it is a few spots higher on the list.

For example, NY (in state) school rankings would be: Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Fordham, Yeshiva, Brooklyn, etc etc.

Traditionally, George Washington is ranked higher than Fordham.

Does that make it better than Fordham overall? No.
Better than Fordham for New York? No.
Better than Fordham for Big Law placement? No.

For example, Texas (in state) school rankings would be: U of Texas, SMU, U of Houston, Baylor U, etc etc.

Emory has always been ranked higher than SMU as far as I know.

Does that make it better than SMU overall? No.
Does it make it better than SMU for Texas? No.
Does it make it better than SMU for Big Law placement? Slightly. In 2005, Emory put 4% more in Big Law (according to the amlaw.com composite).


My whole point is straight line uses of the US News rankings is stupid beyond the Top14. It can be used to compare schools in the same state and possibly a similar region; however, people will obsess over it and make terrible decisions based on uneducated guesses.

Yea.. but you're oversimplifying things. Should one choose Brooklyn over GW for NYC biglaw? Nope. Should one choose Brooklyn over BU/BC for NYC biglaw? Nope. Should one choose American over Emory for DC biglaw? Nope. These are all regional schools, yet rankings will make some trump others even in non-primary markets. This is why the T30 or whatever distinction is actually useful. I would take ND over 'Dozo any day of the week for NYC biglaw. Would I take it over Fordham? Hell no, but the T30ish schools are regional yet still beat out other schools in their home turf.
They're more clumped together than the rankings would imply I agree. I don't think BU is any better than Fordham, or ND any better than BC, etc.

[wired]

This doesn't make sense. Why would they ban coffee but not caffeinated soda (which is what 7th day Adventists do - some of them even think it's holy to avoid mustard and pepper). What do Mormons think is bad about coffee and tea but not bad about coke? This seems like sophistry. (And I could have sworn that Mormons I've known didn't drink Mountain Dew and coke, so maybe it's just BYU regs?)

As in my original post, it goes back to the fact that our scripture specifically prohibits coffee and tea, but not caffeinated soda.

You probably have met Mormons who didn't drink Mountain Dew and Coke. As I said, some choose not to, others do it in moderation. Stepping away from church doctrine into opinion, I think it probably has to do with teaching restraint and self-guidance. The church sets minimum guidelines meant to help members of the church as a whole. However, past that, members the church have to be able to make decisions for themselves. The church can't give a stamp of approval or condemnation on everything.

Still though, there are people in the church who argue about this exact topic - is caffeine against the word of wisdom or not. Officially, the Church says, "Figure it out for yourself."

In the opinion field, it's likely that the Word of Wisdom (the name of our health code) is to help for a specific period of time. We believe there have been times where alcohol hasn't been specifically forbidden (e.g. Jesus drinking wine) and there have been times when pork has been prohibited (law of Moses), but it is fine right now . Our church believes in continuing revelation - God gives different commandments and different times for different reasons. Some commandments are eternal - e.g. have mercy, help the sick, have faith - but many are time and context specific.

[laurathenerd]

I agree with everything that Wired has said, and hereby vote for Wired as our official TLS Mormon missionary. Expect virtual door knocks at inconvenient times. Also I celebrated my recent release from BYU by buying a shirt with low cut back and wearing it in public, as well as wearing running shorts to the grocery store without putting on a pair of basketball shorts over the top (I've really gone off the deep end ). Although sometimes my heart hurts when I think about how much money I would have saved by going to BYU...by living in a fairly decent place I would pay around $3600 for housing the entire year...times three years...paid for by my generous parents...I'm trying not to think about it...


And of course I can't leave this thread without saying ROLL TIDE for my dad

[Aberzombie1892]

I see Tulane is receiving a lot of love in this thread.

U of Alabama is the best school in Alabama by far. However, in my mind, I see it on par with U of Mississippi/LSU (Alabama simply gamed the rankings like everyone else - but I am impressed at its medians; Alabama must have plenty of people that do above average on the LSAT).

Anyway the rankings are only really good for comparing schools in similar regions (beyond the top14). It would be idiotic to use the rankings as a "straight line" - X school is better than Y school because it is a few spots higher on the list.

For example, NY (in state) school rankings would be: Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Fordham, Yeshiva, Brooklyn, etc etc.

Traditionally, George Washington is ranked higher than Fordham.

Does that make it better than Fordham overall? No.
Better than Fordham for New York? No.
Better than Fordham for Big Law placement? No.

For example, Texas (in state) school rankings would be: U of Texas, SMU, U of Houston, Baylor U, etc etc.

Emory has always been ranked higher than SMU as far as I know.

Does that make it better than SMU overall? No.
Does it make it better than SMU for Texas? No.
Does it make it better than SMU for Big Law placement? Slightly. In 2005, Emory put 4% more in Big Law (according to the amlaw.com composite).


My whole point is straight line uses of the US News rankings is stupid beyond the Top14. It can be used to compare schools in the same state and possibly a similar region; however, people will obsess over it and make terrible decisions based on uneducated guesses.

Yea.. but you're oversimplifying things. Should one choose Brooklyn over GW for NYC biglaw? Nope. Should one choose Brooklyn over BU/BC for NYC biglaw? Nope. Should one choose American over Emory for DC biglaw? Nope. These are all regional schools, yet rankings will make some trump others even in non-primary markets. This is why the T30 or whatever distinction is actually useful. I would take ND over 'Dozo any day of the week for NYC biglaw. Would I take it over Fordham? Hell no, but the T30ish schools are regional yet still beat out other schools in their home turf.
They're more clumped together than the rankings would imply I agree. I don't think BU is any better than Fordham, or ND any better than BC, etc.

Not necessarily. Anyone will say that schools are essentially the same within a certain range of schools. But for school number #49 to have basically identical Big Law prospects as #20 - it shows that straight line comparisons are useless. As I made note of earlier, I'm going to Tulane (#45). It has equal Big Law placement as U of Minnesota (#20; according to the same composite). I'm simply stating that between #15-#50, prospects can very wildly (not only for Big Law, but also for placement in general). Yes Vanderbilt, Fordham, UCLA, and BC all have above average Big Law successes; however beyond those, it simply comes to personal preference. People like to say a "lower" tier one or a "higher" tier one when it could be a worse decision (for Big Law, where they want to practice, etc. etc.) to go to the higher ranked school.

[Blindmelon]

Biglaw isn't everything. But if you think it is, and the rankings went just by percentage in biglaw, Fordham and GW would rise a ton in the rankings. Also, GW/Fordham/BC/BU/UIUC/Emory/WUSTL/UT/Vand/UCLA/ND/WM all have almost double the biglaw placement as Tulane and its peer schools (American, RU, etc.), and some have more than triple. These are all T30ish schools and place significantly better warranting their own little category. Yes, U Minnesota is 20 and it doesn't have a very high biglaw placement, but they feed mostly into their home state where biglaw isn't the only thing going and they are also a more selective school than those ranked higher. I agree it becomes more arbitrary the farther you go down the rankings, but to say that Tulane and Vand/BC/UIUC/GW, etc are in the same league is pretty silly.

[OperaSoprano]

Biglaw isn't everything. But if you think it is, and the rankings went just by percentage in biglaw, Fordham and GW would rise a ton in the rankings. Also, GW/Fordham/BC/BU/UIUC/Emory/WUSTL/UT/Vand/UCLA/ND/WM all have almost double the biglaw placement as Tulane and its peer schools (American, RU, etc.), and some have more than triple. These are all T30ish schools and place significantly better warranting their own little category. Yes, U Minnesota is 20 and it doesn't have a very high biglaw placement, but they feed mostly into their home state where biglaw isn't the only thing going and they are also a more selective school than those ranked higher. I agree it becomes more arbitrary the farther you go down the rankings, but to say that Tulane and Vand/BC/UIUC/GW, etc are in the same league is pretty silly.

Blindmelon, you rock, but I have to quibble with this slightly. Vandy places like GULC (I've seen the data, since I'm Observationalist's apprentice), so it doesn't go on that list. I suspect that UT and UCLA do similarly with market paying (but not necessarily NLJ250) firms in their home regions. I haven't seen the breakdowns, so I won't claim anything, though. Biglaw aside, they're still really good schools.

From 20-30, it's all about region. It would be ridiculous for me to run around claiming that Fordham is "better" than BU, but it certainly places better in NYC (not just biglaw, obviously), and BU obviously places better in Boston.

Is Fordham better than Minnesota? Don't ask Badlydrawn. Is it better than Notre Dame? Edgar wouldn't say so. Is it better than IUB? Clearly Nitsudrx thought otherwise. Is it better than any of those schools for me? Yes. Personal happiness FTW.

Rankings don't tell the whole story. I went and out and got the damn things at half past midnight, and I nearly threw them in the nearest trash receptacle. Geoanthem had to talk me out of it via text.

Look at what the school's recent grads have been up to. Talk to many, many people, and ask questions. This is the surest way to measure the quality of a school.