Syracuse's Ranking drop? Forum

[hoffb86]

edit: For most people trying to choose between the two, I would nearly ALWAYS say Buffalo. However, my point is that the prospects are better at the top of the class for a Syracuse grad, but there is a HUGE amount of risk involved.

I think this risk is HUGELY minimized if you have a large scholarship to attend SUCOL. I am extremely debt-averse (turned down Cornell to attend SU on a full scholarship because I simply could not fathom graduating over $200,000 in debt), and personally would not attend ANY school outside of the top 6 without substantial funding assistance, especially ITE. I came to SU because I wasn't determined to practice big law, and the scholarship ensured that if I were denied that possibility, I would, at worst, still graduate debt-free.

I think you're out of your fucking mind.

/thread

[reidki]

I think you're out of your fucking mind.

/thread

Well, you might be right I guess we'll know for sure whether I am "out of my fucking mind" after OCI, when we are able to make a legitimate comparison between how I fare, and how someone at median or below fares at Cornell in this economic climate.

I WILL say that there are different kinds of risks, and every student must decide for him/herself which risks to assume. For me, the risk of practicing insurance defense or personal injury law in upstate NY (worst case scenerio) debt-free was MUCH less concerning than the prospect of being unable to find a Big Law job to pay back over $200,000 of debt, elite diploma or not. But that's probably because I'm not a "big law or bust" person, and the prospect of practicing law for $35,000/year just doesn't upset me.

[mgoblue2008]

here's the deal: coolkatz went to buffalo for UG and most likely hates Syracuse for some petty sports rivalry reasons. That, and the fact that Syracuse as a whole is a great university. Buffalo is not. Pretty much the only thing Buffalo has going for it is it's up and coming law school, which is ranked slightly above Syracuse's. Because he's so bitter that he went to the inferior school for undergrad, coolkatz spends ~30 hours a week on TLS badmouthing Syracuse. It's true, as of right now, Buffalo is ranked slighlty above Syracuse, and the employment prospects might be slighlty better. But it won't stay that way forever. At the end of the day, I'd much rather have Syracuse University College of Law on my resume than University of New York AT Buffalo Law School. Syracuse has too much money, too strong of an alumni base, and too much name recognition not to improve their ranking and employment stats in the coming years.

[jewtangclan03]

are syracuse and buffalo even sports rivals? i'm no new yorker, but i thought su's rivals were traditional big east powers like georgetown, st. johns, uconn, etc. this is like saying my uva is rivals w/ jmu and liberty because of georgraphic proximity.

i like jim boehim, carmelo anthony, and joe biden as much as the next guy-- but i don't think they're doing anything to improve syracuse's median lsat score or help that poor kid who forked over $42k/yr in tuition a job anytime soon.

[mgoblue2008]

OK maybe not rivals... more along the lines of Syracuse pwning Buffalo in every sport.

[coolkatz321]

here's the deal: coolkatz went to buffalo for UG and most likely hates Syracuse for some petty sports rivalry reasons. That, and the fact that Syracuse as a whole is a great university. Buffalo is not. Pretty much the only thing Buffalo has going for it is it's up and coming law school, which is ranked slightly above Syracuse's. Because he's so bitter that he went to the inferior school for undergrad, coolkatz spends ~30 hours a week on TLS badmouthing Syracuse. It's true, as of right now, Buffalo is ranked slighlty above Syracuse, and the employment prospects might be slighlty better. But it won't stay that way forever. At the end of the day, I'd much rather have Syracuse University College of Law on my resume than University of New York AT Buffalo Law School. Syracuse has too much money, too strong of an alumni base, and too much name recognition not to improve their ranking and employment stats in the coming years.

Please. Syracuse is constantly regarded as one of the most overpriced UG schools in the nation. Every single year. If I wanted to go to Syracuse, I would have. However, judging by the price:quality ratio, Syracuse is overpriced garbage.

You'd rather have Syracuse Law on your resume? I'm sorry. Hey, look at our school! We couldn't even beat the state-wide bar passage rate! Wooooo.

And, to continue this: Buffalo the City >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Syracuse the city, and that's saying something.

Final note: How'd you enjoy your single year in the Top 100? I know it was brief, but hey, you'll get there...or not.

[mgoblue2008]

here's the deal: coolkatz went to buffalo for UG and most likely hates Syracuse for some petty sports rivalry reasons. That, and the fact that Syracuse as a whole is a great university. Buffalo is not. Pretty much the only thing Buffalo has going for it is it's up and coming law school, which is ranked slightly above Syracuse's. Because he's so bitter that he went to the inferior school for undergrad, coolkatz spends ~30 hours a week on TLS badmouthing Syracuse. It's true, as of right now, Buffalo is ranked slighlty above Syracuse, and the employment prospects might be slighlty better. But it won't stay that way forever. At the end of the day, I'd much rather have Syracuse University College of Law on my resume than University of New York AT Buffalo Law School. Syracuse has too much money, too strong of an alumni base, and too much name recognition not to improve their ranking and employment stats in the coming years.

Please. Syracuse is constantly regarded as one of the most overpriced UG schools in the nation. Every single year. If I wanted to go to Syracuse, I would have. However, judging by the price:quality ratio, Syracuse is overpriced garbage.

You'd rather have Syracuse Law on your resume? I'm sorry. Hey, look at our school! We couldn't even beat the state-wide bar passage rate! Wooooo.
And, to continue this: Buffalo the City >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Syracuse the city, and that's saying something.

Final note: How'd you enjoy your single year in the Top 100? I know it was brief, but hey, you'll get there...or not.

I'm pretty sure once you pass the bar, a firm looking at your resume could care less about the school's passage rate.

And FWIW, there's no difference between bottom of the top 100 and the top of the third tier. If you think an employer is going to whip out a copy of USNWR to see what this year's ranking is for one of these schools, you're out of your mind.

Syracuse University's reputation is much stronger than the University of New York AT Buffalo. Sorry, it's just a fact. And one of the reasons I'm going to Syracuse is to get a joint degree at their Maxwell School... I couldn't do that at Buffalo, as the school is a joke in every discpline outside of law.

Oh, and outside of NY/NJ, Syracuse places better than Buffalo. Why? Because most people don't even know there's school called Buffalo.

[coolkatz321]

here's the deal: coolkatz went to buffalo for UG and most likely hates Syracuse for some petty sports rivalry reasons. That, and the fact that Syracuse as a whole is a great university. Buffalo is not. Pretty much the only thing Buffalo has going for it is it's up and coming law school, which is ranked slightly above Syracuse's. Because he's so bitter that he went to the inferior school for undergrad, coolkatz spends ~30 hours a week on TLS badmouthing Syracuse. It's true, as of right now, Buffalo is ranked slighlty above Syracuse, and the employment prospects might be slighlty better. But it won't stay that way forever. At the end of the day, I'd much rather have Syracuse University College of Law on my resume than University of New York AT Buffalo Law School. Syracuse has too much money, too strong of an alumni base, and too much name recognition not to improve their ranking and employment stats in the coming years.

Please. Syracuse is constantly regarded as one of the most overpriced UG schools in the nation. Every single year. If I wanted to go to Syracuse, I would have. However, judging by the price:quality ratio, Syracuse is overpriced garbage.

You'd rather have Syracuse Law on your resume? I'm sorry. Hey, look at our school! We couldn't even beat the state-wide bar passage rate! Wooooo.
And, to continue this: Buffalo the City >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Syracuse the city, and that's saying something.

Final note: How'd you enjoy your single year in the Top 100? I know it was brief, but hey, you'll get there...or not.

I'm pretty sure once you pass the bar, a firm looking at your resume could care less about the school's passage rate.

And FWIW, there's no difference between bottom of the top 100 and the top of the third tier. If you think an employer is going to whip out a copy of USNWR to see what this year's ranking is for one of these schools, you're out of your mind.

Syracuse University's reputation is much stronger than the University of New York AT Buffalo. Sorry, it's just a fact. And one of the reasons I'm going to Syracuse is to get a joint degree at their Maxwell School... I couldn't do that at Buffalo, as the school is a joke in every discpline outside of law.

You continue to say that Syracuse has a better reputation, but unfortunately for you, the placement statistics don't reflect that. Refusing to publish employment numbers in USNWR? Yeah, because they were so embarrassing.

The law school is a joke and just isn't well-respected anymore. Sure, those 'older' people who graduated from it when it was actually a promising institution are well-off, but not now. The average LSAT of 154 (or however low it is) and GPA of 3.3 just isn't going to produce quality students. No one is debating the quality of the Maxwell school, but burdening that degree with a crappy JD from Syracuse isn't going to help you much.

[mgoblue2008]

here's the deal: coolkatz went to buffalo for UG and most likely hates Syracuse for some petty sports rivalry reasons. That, and the fact that Syracuse as a whole is a great university. Buffalo is not. Pretty much the only thing Buffalo has going for it is it's up and coming law school, which is ranked slightly above Syracuse's. Because he's so bitter that he went to the inferior school for undergrad, coolkatz spends ~30 hours a week on TLS badmouthing Syracuse. It's true, as of right now, Buffalo is ranked slighlty above Syracuse, and the employment prospects might be slighlty better. But it won't stay that way forever. At the end of the day, I'd much rather have Syracuse University College of Law on my resume than University of New York AT Buffalo Law School. Syracuse has too much money, too strong of an alumni base, and too much name recognition not to improve their ranking and employment stats in the coming years.

Please. Syracuse is constantly regarded as one of the most overpriced UG schools in the nation. Every single year. If I wanted to go to Syracuse, I would have. However, judging by the price:quality ratio, Syracuse is overpriced garbage.

You'd rather have Syracuse Law on your resume? I'm sorry. Hey, look at our school! We couldn't even beat the state-wide bar passage rate! Wooooo.
And, to continue this: Buffalo the City >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Syracuse the city, and that's saying something.

Final note: How'd you enjoy your single year in the Top 100? I know it was brief, but hey, you'll get there...or not.

I'm pretty sure once you pass the bar, a firm looking at your resume could care less about the school's passage rate.

And FWIW, there's no difference between bottom of the top 100 and the top of the third tier. If you think an employer is going to whip out a copy of USNWR to see what this year's ranking is for one of these schools, you're out of your mind.

Syracuse University's reputation is much stronger than the University of New York AT Buffalo. Sorry, it's just a fact. And one of the reasons I'm going to Syracuse is to get a joint degree at their Maxwell School... I couldn't do that at Buffalo, as the school is a joke in every discpline outside of law.

You continue to say that Syracuse has a better reputation, but unfortunately for you, the placement statistics don't reflect that. Refusing to publish employment numbers in USNWR? Yeah, because they were so embarrassing.

The law school is a joke and just isn't well-respected anymore. Sure, those 'older' people who graduated from it when it was actually a promising institution are well-off, but not now. The average LSAT of 154 (or however low it is) and GPA of 3.3 just isn't going to produce quality students. No one is debating the quality of the Maxwell school, but burdening that degree with a crappy JD from Syracuse isn't going to help you much.

You are correct that those "older" people who graduated from Syracuse are well off. But what you fail to mention is that these same people are part of the school's alumni network, many of whom are responsible for hiring law school graduates today. Buffalo doesn't have an alumni network like this. I don't know why the employment numbers weren't released, but I'm not going to assume that it's because "they were so embarrasing."

[coolkatz321]

You are correct that those "older" people who graduated from Syracuse are well off. But what you fail to mention is that these same people are part of the school's alumni network, many of whom are responsible for hiring law school graduates today. Buffalo doesn't have an alumni network like this. I don't know why the employment numbers weren't released, but I'm not going to assume that it's because "they were so embarrasing."

I'm also guessing that those alumni are aware of how sub-par the school has become, and have simply stopped hiring grads from their Alma mater. The rumors about Syracuse employment rates were that they were under 40% right after graduation, which is, without a doubt, embarrassing.

There is no doubt that the quality of students coming out of UB is significantly better than Syracuse; the law school simply has more to offer.

[mgoblue2008]

You are correct that those "older" people who graduated from Syracuse are well off. But what you fail to mention is that these same people are part of the school's alumni network, many of whom are responsible for hiring law school graduates today. Buffalo doesn't have an alumni network like this. I don't know why the employment numbers weren't released, but I'm not going to assume that it's because "they were so embarrasing."

I'm also guessing that those alumni are aware of how sub-par the school has become, and have simply stopped hiring grads from their Alma mater. The rumors about Syracuse employment rates were that they were under 40% right after graduation, which is, without a doubt, embarrassing.

There is no doubt that the quality of students coming out of UB is significantly better than Syracuse; the law school simply has more to offer.

They're called rumors for a reason. Where did you hear them from?? Have a link??

As of today, Buffalo has a slightly better law school if you want to look at numbers. But you'll get roughly the same education from both schools. Syracuse has more potential, though. It has national name recognition, a strong alumni network, and lots of money -- three things Buffalo will never have. Put a gun to any lawyer's head outside of NY and ask them what the better law school is, Syracuse or Buffalo, I guarantee at least 90% will say Syracuse. Hell, even in NY, I bet a majority would say Syracuse. Not everyone obsesses over the USNWR and bar passage rates. And I GUARANTEE you they could care less about the median LSAT score for incoming 1Ls.

[coolkatz321]

You are correct that those "older" people who graduated from Syracuse are well off. But what you fail to mention is that these same people are part of the school's alumni network, many of whom are responsible for hiring law school graduates today. Buffalo doesn't have an alumni network like this. I don't know why the employment numbers weren't released, but I'm not going to assume that it's because "they were so embarrasing."

I'm also guessing that those alumni are aware of how sub-par the school has become, and have simply stopped hiring grads from their Alma mater. The rumors about Syracuse employment rates were that they were under 40% right after graduation, which is, without a doubt, embarrassing.

There is no doubt that the quality of students coming out of UB is significantly better than Syracuse; the law school simply has more to offer.

They're called rumors for a reason. Where did you hear them from?? Have a link??

As of today, Buffalo has a slightly better law school if you want to look at numbers. But you'll get roughly the same education from both schools. Syracuse has more potential, though. It has national name recognition, a strong alumni network, and lots of money -- three things Buffalo will never have. Put a gun to any lawyer's head outside of NY and ask them what the better law school is, Syracuse or Buffalo, I guarantee at least 90% will say Syracuse. Hell, even in NY, I bet a majority would say Syracuse. Not everyone obsesses over the USNWR and bar passage rates. And I GUARANTEE you they could care less about the median LSAT score for incoming 1Ls.

You can't really guarantee anything. I've spoken to lawyers in NYC and they were all aware of the decline of Syracuse. In NY state, it's still regarded as an overpriced law school, and every single lawyer I talked to all said that UB was the better of the two. People may not obsess over bar passage rates, but they're well-aware when a school plummets in the rankings. How did 'Cuse fare this past year? They fell to the T3. How did UB do? They went up 15 spots. Clearly one school is doing something right, and it isn't the private one.

[redginseng]

As you move down the ranking, differences in job prospects are hardly noticeable. The difference between top 10 and top 20 is huge whereas difference between 60s and 90s is basically same, IMO.

In the grand scheme of things, I would say that biglaw prospects are similar among schools ranked between 60s to 100. 60s have 15% and 90s have 6-7% NLJ 250 chance. Even T4 have 5% NLJ prospect. That means among these schools, 85- 95% doesn't make the cut.

My point is that either in Buffalo or Syracuse, or anywhere below 50-60s, one must do extremely well to get into biglaw; or have their own strategy. Given the similar biglaw prospects among these school, I don't the game is about 'which school'; it's a different game one must play.

[coolkatz321]

Yada Yada Yada

At least give me this answer--what kind of scholarship is Syracuse giving you to attend? And, what are the GPA requirements for it?

[nofear]

This is a Syracuse thread and the Syracuse students who are happy should be allowed to be so. What is the purpose, other than self-validation, for the UB students to bash SU?

It shows a deep insecurity.

I do not believe the criticism is an act of public service. It is an act of aggression.

We are all allowed to make our own decisions in life.

Good luck to the UB students, good luck to us all. Save the agression for moot court!

[griffy]

lol at coolkatz posting on an su board at 3am. What a fucking loser. Still I find myself oddly amused by this.

[coolkatz321]

lol at coolkatz posting on an su board at 3am. What a fucking loser. Still I find myself oddly amused by this.

Hey, it could be worse, I could be going to Syracuse. Oh wait, I'm not. Hurray for decent employment prospects and a T1, rather than awful prospects and a T3!

[mgoblue2008]

lol at coolkatz posting on an su board at 3am. What a fucking loser. Still I find myself oddly amused by this.

Hey, it could be worse, I could be going to Syracuse. Oh wait, I'm not. Hurray for decent employment prospects and a T1, rather than awful prospects and a T3!

You could be going to Yale, but with your personality I still think your employment prospects would be awful. Good luck in the interviews, sir.

[coolkatz321]

lol at coolkatz posting on an su board at 3am. What a fucking loser. Still I find myself oddly amused by this.

Hey, it could be worse, I could be going to Syracuse. Oh wait, I'm not. Hurray for decent employment prospects and a T1, rather than awful prospects and a T3!

You could be going to Yale, but with your personality I still think your employment prospects would be awful. Good luck in the interviews, sir.

Still no answer to my question, huh? How much of a scholly is Syracuse giving you?

If you're paying sticker, well...

[FiatLux]

As much as I would hate to agree with coolkatz, I'm going to have to agree with him on this one. Going to Syracuse is a huge risk given the state of the economy and the fact that Syracuse does not publish transaparent employment statistics.

I received the Chancellor's Scholarship offer from Syracuse Law. The scholarship awarded me $32,500/year for each year of my J.D. program as long as I maintained a minimum 3.00 grade-point average. I have no doubt that I would've been able to maintain the minimum grade-point average to retain the scholarship for all 3 years of my J.D. program. However, I decided to do some research and find out about my employment prospects coming out of SU Law. I then came across this part of their website detailng their employment statistics for the Class of 2008.

--LinkRemoved--

They also sent me something similar in the mail (a pie chart with an industry breakdown of employment). In the mail, the pie chart they sent was for the Class of 2007 and did not include any information except what percentage of their respondents were in each of the listed industries. They did not disclose the response rate to their employment survey, which a critical piece of information given that the non-respondents are far more likely to be unemployed or underemployed than the respondents. In addition, they simply did not disclose common employment information that you can find on the websites of many first and second tier law schools. Their employment information was incomplete, at best.

They did not disclose the average salaries for graduates working in each industry/subfield, the minimum and maximum salaries of their graduates for each industry/subfield, or a distribution of their graduates by firm size. Lots of law schools even disclose a selected list of employers that have registered for OCI or a selected list of recent placements from their graduating class. However, Syracuse Law does not provide this information either on their website or in their print materials sent out to applicants.

In the end, I chose to turn down SU's generous scholarship offer. Despite their rather opaque employment statistics, I still believe that anyone can get a great legal education from SU and I'm sure the quality of the faculty is amazing. However, I just did not want to take the risk of getting stuck in upstate New York. Best of luck to all incoming SU Law students.

The law school I will be attending in the fall published their complete employment statistics for the Class of 2008 including the number of respondents to their employment survey (which was well over 90%), breakdown of employment numbers by subfield/industry, average salaries for each subfield, distribution of graduates by firm size, average salary of graduates in each firm size bracket, and more. I will be attending a solid 2nd tier school in the fall and I don't regret my decision at all.

[mark2000]

I was a 1L at SUCOL this past year who just transferred out. Anyone seriously thinking about attending this school is out of their mind. Even with a full ride and a stipend on top of it, you couldn't pay me to attend.

I know at least a dozen people in the class of 2011 who transferred out--some to top 20 schools. Many others in classes spoke of transferring and were desperately trying to get out of the school through lateral transfers. A few were even willing to go to lower ranked schools. All of us laugh at those like reidki who stayed at SUCOL and continue to try to justify their choice to stay.

The school is just a real dump with an embarrassing and unprofessional administration. And I mean "dump" literally. The facilities are awful--everything in the library is stained, or scratched, or falling apart and the bathrooms are rarely cleaned. It's just gross. A lot of the programs SUCOL claims to offer on their website functionally do not exist at the school and are misleading to potential students. Most of the faculty seem like they don't want to be there. The best profs spend half their time visiting at other schools. Finding a job with a SUCOL degree is an even bigger joke. A handful of graduating 3Ls with good personal connection found okay jobs. Nothing stellar though. The infamous "strong alumni network" that so many think SUCOL has remains a mystery to me.

I could go on an on. If anyone has any specific questions, please ask or PM me. No one should make the mistake of attending this place. Having made the mistake myself, I feel like I have a responsibility to help other TLSers out!

[neskerdoo]

I was a 1L at SUCOL this past year who just transferred out. Anyone seriously thinking about attending this school is out of their mind. Even with a full ride and a stipend on top of it, you couldn't pay me to attend.

I know at least a dozen people in the class of 2011 who transferred out--some to top 20 schools. Many others in classes spoke of transferring and were desperately trying to get out of the school through lateral transfers. A few were even willing to go to lower ranked schools. All of us laugh at those like reidki who stayed at SUCOL and continue to try to justify their choice to stay.

The school is just a real dump with an embarrassing and unprofessional administration. And I mean "dump" literally. The facilities are awful--everything in the library is stained, or scratched, or falling apart and the bathrooms are rarely cleaned. It's just gross. A lot of the programs SUCOL claims to offer on their website functionally do not exist at the school and are misleading to potential students. Most of the faculty seem like they don't want to be there. The best profs spend half their time visiting at other schools. Finding a job with a SUCOL degree is an even bigger joke. A handful of graduating 3Ls with good personal connection found okay jobs. Nothing stellar though. The infamous "strong alumni network" that so many think SUCOL has remains a mystery to me.

I could go on an on. If anyone has any specific questions, please ask or PM me. No one should make the mistake of attending this place. Having made the mistake myself, I feel like I have a responsibility to help other TLSers out!

where are you transferring?

[mark2000]

I'd prefer not to say. I did transfer up though.

[CaptainSnuggleBunny]

If my LSAT score ended up below 165 I was going to seriously consider Syracuse.

Why?

So I could JD/MPA at the best Public Policy school in the country. Widely considered better than the Kennedy School at Harvard.

Other than that, even with lots of cash, I'm not sure why Syracuse would be considered.

[mark2000]

If you get below a 165 just retake. Don't waste a year of your time, money and intellect at a dump like SUCOL. Maxwell's MPA does rank above Harvard, but if you want an MPA just apply directly to the school. I wouldn't advise mucking up a resume with a SUCOL degree if you can do better. You're also not guaranteed entry into the Maxwell program as a law student. You have to a apply in the second semester of your first year. If for some reason you perform poorly on first semester exams, you may be denied entry. Not saying the chance of this happening is great, but entry into Maxwell through SUCOL isn't a sure thing.

Just something to keep in mind as you weigh your options.