Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley Forum

[sbalive]

If a school is superior, its logical to follow then that people think of it in higher esteem. I am not sure how you did on the Logical Reasoning section of the LSAT. And btw, isn't that what we should be choosing schools by, the quality of the institution?

This makes very little sense, but neither did a lot of the problems in the Logical Reasoning section of the LSAT. Since I'm trying to desperately to never think about the LSAT again, I won't try to decipher what you're trying to say here.

I do agree that the overall reputation of the university shouldn't be a significant factor. But some people say it's an absolute zero, and that's pretty stupid. For one thing, a lot of people end up really disliking law firm work. They'd like to do something else. If you want to do that something else, having a degree with greater lay prestige does make a difference. Now, I'd argue that matters more for Columbia vs. NYU than Columbia vs. Berkeley or Penn, but whatever.

That said, getting back to the OP's original concerns: Columbia gave off much chiller vibes than I expected - in the classrooms, and in talking to students who were around. I didn't feel any real pretentiousness - I think people realize that Harvard and Yale are the top dogs, and Columbia's just trying to be as good as it can be. To be honest, the Dean (Ricky?) at NYU Day was the one who kept referring to the "Top 6" law schools in the country.

However, given that the OP is actually from New York, I think he/she might enjoy going out to Berkeley. It'd be a nice change, and I doubt the doors would be slammed shut in NYC, especially if there's a strong effort made to get back there. I also really hope that GoCardinals goes to Berkeley too

[MeTalkPrettyOneDay]

Note: further research reveals the US News and British rankings I linked to are identical, and actually cite the same source. Still, I maintain my point. That both a British and a US publication published the same ranking actually lends credence to the ranking. But back to my original point: I don't pretend to know whether Columbia or Berkeley has a stronger international reputation as a university. But I will maintain that CLS probably has a slightly stronger international reputation than Berkeley Law.

[samar island]

Go to Berkeley Law. It's more prestigious than Columbia. The Berkeley name is world renowned more so than Columbia is. In the international scene, it's not even close.

You must be joking. Don't get me wrong, both are fantastic schools with very strong international reputations. However, I'd argue that CLS may have a slightly stronger international reputation. To say that Berkeley somehow has a much stronger international reputation than Columbia is just ludicrous.

Trust me; the Berkeley name is more prestigious than the Columbia name internationally. Berkeley is as a solid top 7/8 schools in the world, or on par with Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge. Columbia is certainly not in their league, but should be in the top 20 on global scale.

As for law, they're pretty even.

I was just pointing out the poster who said that Columbia has a bigger name than has Berkeley. No its not. Berkeley is a bigger name as a whole. But I think much of its reputation comes from being a world-class science and engineering school. Regardless, it has a bigger name than Columbia as a whole.

I assumed your comment was in reference to their respective law schools. I now see that your comment was in reference to the broader universities. In regard to the broader universities, I'll admit that I don't really know enough to comment. US News, for what it's worth, disagrees with your analysis. In its "World's Best Colleges and Universities" ranking, Columbia University comes in at 10 and UC Berkeley is 36. http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... s-rankings

Stanford and Berkeley just slipped in the ranking table only very recently. The year before that ranking came out, both Stanford and Berkeley were in the top 6. All other world ranking tables have ranked Berkeley in the top 5. Columbia wasn't even in the top 10.

Please let's not argue about which between the two is more prestigious abroad. I've reside in a lot of countries my past 21 years. I've spent elementary years in the US, in Chicago in particular. High school in Thailand. Intentionality Baccalaureate in Singapore. Undergraduate at Girton College, University of Cambridge, UK. Now work in Asian Development Bank in Manila. My father is Italian. My mother is Japanese. I've been to so many countries in 6 continents as a tourist and now as a worker of ADB. I'm a prestige whore and I often ask people around about schools and school prestige. That's how I got into Cambridge and declined the offer I got from Columbia. Never have I been to anywhere where Columbia is better regarded than UC Berkeley. The Berkeley name is famous all over the world, more so than Columbia's. It was were the periodic table was arranged. More than 20 elements have been identified at Berkeley. In fact, one of the elements was been named after it. It has more Nobel winners than has Columbia. It has one of the best, if not the best, computer science programs in the world. It's engineering --across all majors--is insanely famous!! Top scholars around the world would break an arm just to get into Berkeley engineering. Meanwhile, there isn't one particular academic area where Columbia excels in. I'm talking about a program where it can say, it's one of the very best in the world. Surely, its business school, law school, med school, education and engineering are excellent. But neither of those programs can it really claim that it's the best for it. Berkeley has several areas where it can be rated solid top 3. I think that's the major contribution to Berkeley's famous name internationally.

Sorry that I sounded ranting. I was actually typing this whilst i'm on bed...very sleepy already..

And, for law, i'd say they're pretty even. Go to Columbia if you want an easier career in NYC. If you want to built your career on the West Coast though, Berkeley is it for you, obviously.

good luck to the OP! Cheers everyone!

[sbalive]

This may be the first and only time that a research program in particle physics has been used to argue for a law school choice.

[sophie316]

To defend my alma mater a little:

'According to the U.S. News & World Report,[50]The Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism, home to the Pulitzer Prize, ranks #1. Teachers College (Columbia's Graduate School of Education) ranks #4. School of Social Work ranks #4. The Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation (GSAPP) ranks #3, according to Architect magazine's November 2007 issue. Columbia Law School ranks #4. The Mailman School of Public Health ranks #6. Columbia Business School ranks #9, #2 according to The Financial Times, and #6 according to Fortune Magazine). Columbia's medical school, called the College of Physicians and Surgeons, ranks #11. According to Foreign Policy magazine, the School of International & Public Affairs (SIPA) PhD program (overall) in international relations is ranked #2, and the Master's program (policy area) is ranked #5. Finally, Columbia's Institute of Human Nutrition ranks #1, according to The Chronicle for Higher Education.'

Columbia has many great programs. So does Berkeley. The difference in name value internationally, whatever it may be, is just not enough to justify basing one's decision on it IMHO.

[southernlady]

Shit. Just got an email reminding me that the Berkeley response deadline is April 15th.....definitely thought it was May 1st......

Guess my decision making period just compressed....

You just have to tentatively commit by 4/15. You really have until 6/1 unless there is some other scholarship deadline involved.

[huckabees]

Stanford and Berkeley just slipped in the ranking table only very recently. The year before that ranking came out, both Stanford and Berkeley were in the top 6. All other world ranking tables have ranked Berkeley in the top 5. Columbia wasn't even in the top 10.

Please let's not argue about which between the two is more prestigious abroad. I've reside to a lot of countries my past 20 years. I've spent elementary years in the US, in Chicago in particular. High school in Thailand. Intentionality Baccalaureate in Singapore. Undergraduate at Girton College, University of Cambridge, UK. Now work in Asian Development Bank in Manila. My father is Italian. My mother is Japanese. I've been to so many countries in 6 continents as a tourist and now as a worker of ADB. I'm a prestige whore and I often ask people around about schools and school prestige. Never have I been to anywhere where Columbia is better regarded than UC Berkeley. The Berkeley name is famous all over the world, more so than Columbia. It was were the periodic table was arranged. More than 20 elements have been identified at Berkeley. In fact, one of the elements was been named after it. It has more Nobel winners than has Columbia. It has a one of the best computer science programs in the world. It's engineering --across the majors--is insanely famous. Top scholars around the world would break an arm just to get into Berkeley engineering. Meanwhile, there isn't one particular academic area where Columbia excels in. I'm talking about a program where it can say, it's one of the very best in the world in that specific field. Surely, its business school, law school, med school, education and engineering are excellent. But it's neither of these programs can it really claim that it's the best for it. Berkeley has several areas where it can be rated solid top 3. I think that's the major contribution to Berkeley's famous name internationally.

Sorry that I sounded ranting. I was actually typing whilst on bed...very sleepy already..

And, for law, i'd say they're pretty even. Go to Columbia if you want an easier career in NYC. If you want to built your career on the West Coast though, Berkeley is it for you, obviously.

good luck to the OP! Cheers everyone!

Thanks for this detailed post, and I am not doubting your credentials. I don't think other TLSers who are disagreeing doubt them either.

I have similar credentials, and to me, Columbia is at the very least on par with Berkeley.

Say someone wanted a finance or consulting job in the US after getting their JD. From anecdotal evidence, I would say that they'd prefer the Columbia name over the Berkeley name. Not saying that finance or consulting are great fields to be in right now, but from historical evidence, I think Columbia has the "reputational" edge, at least in those areas.

[samar island]

This may be the first and only time that a research program in particle physics has been used to argue for a law school choice.

You did not get my point. I'm not debating which school is superior when it comes to law education. I already said that both are excellent schools for law. What I was arguing about was the claim that Columbia has a "bigger, stronger" name than Berkeley has, as a whole. That just isn't true. Maybe for undergrad it is. Maybe for MBA it is. But as a whole, it isn't. As a whole, Berkeley has a stronger name than has Columbia.

But for law, I suspect they're pretty even. Columbia has a bigger name in the East Coast, whilst Berkeley has a bigger name in the West Coast.

[huckabees]

This may be the first and only time that a research program in particle physics has been used to argue for a law school choice.

You did not get my point. I'm not debating which school is superior when it comes to law education. I already said that both are excellent schools for law. What I was arguing about was the claim that Columbia has a "bigger, stronger" name than Berkeley has, as a whole. That just isn't true. Maybe for undergrad it is. Maybe for MBA it is. But as a whole, it isn't. As a whole, Berkeley has a stronger name than has Columbia.

But for law, I suspect they're pretty even. Columbia has a bigger name in the East Coast, whilst Berkeley has a bigger name in the West Coast.

Maybe this is true. I can't say for sure. I think on the West, Berkeley is considered the "next best" after Stanford, and on the East, Columbia is considered the "next best" after HYP.

[sbalive]

Please let's not argue about which between the two is more prestigious abroad. I've reside in a lot of countries my past 21 years. I've spent elementary years in the US, in Chicago in particular. High school in Thailand. Intentionality Baccalaureate in Singapore. Undergraduate at Girton College, University of Cambridge, UK. Now work in Asian Development Bank in Manila. My father is Italian. My mother is Japanese. I've been to so many countries in 6 continents as a tourist and now as a worker of ADB. I'm a prestige whore and I often ask people around about schools and school prestige. That's how I got into Cambridge and declined the offer I got from Columbia. Never have I been to anywhere where Columbia is better regarded than UC Berkeley.

By the way, please, please tell me you're going to Berkeley too. Or, at least anywhere but Columbia.

[sbalive]

This may be the first and only time that a research program in particle physics has been used to argue for a law school choice.

You did not get my point. I'm not debating which school is superior when it comes to law education. I already said that both are excellent schools for law. What I was arguing about was the claim that Columbia has a "bigger, stronger" name than Berkeley has, as a whole. That just isn't true. Maybe for undergrad it is. Maybe for MBA it is. But as a whole, it isn't. As a whole, Berkeley has a stronger name than has Columbia.

But for law, I suspect they're pretty even. Columbia has a bigger name in the East Coast, whilst Berkeley has a bigger name in the West Coast.

You'll have to forgive me. I'm a humble guy from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and I've really only ever been as far away as Regina. But, I can assure you that in Saskatchewan, Columbia >>> Berkeley. (Also, I really only care about academic programs in tractor engineering.)

[huckabees]

Please let's not argue about which between the two is more prestigious abroad. I've reside in a lot of countries my past 21 years. I've spent elementary years in the US, in Chicago in particular. High school in Thailand. Intentionality Baccalaureate in Singapore. Undergraduate at Girton College, University of Cambridge, UK. Now work in Asian Development Bank in Manila. My father is Italian. My mother is Japanese. I've been to so many countries in 6 continents as a tourist and now as a worker of ADB. I'm a prestige whore and I often ask people around about schools and school prestige. That's how I got into Cambridge and declined the offer I got from Columbia. Never have I been to anywhere where Columbia is better regarded than UC Berkeley.

By the way, please, please tell me you're going to Berkeley too. Or, at least anywhere but Columbia.

Did you hear that UCLA undergrad is also better than Dartmouth undergrad for the same reasons that Berkeley is better than Columbia

[Cleareyes]

But, I can assure you that in Saskatchewan, Columbia >>> Berkeley.

But neither is SIAST, that's for sure!

[samar island]

Please let's not argue about which between the two is more prestigious abroad. I've reside in a lot of countries my past 21 years. I've spent elementary years in the US, in Chicago in particular. High school in Thailand. Intentionality Baccalaureate in Singapore. Undergraduate at Girton College, University of Cambridge, UK. Now work in Asian Development Bank in Manila. My father is Italian. My mother is Japanese. I've been to so many countries in 6 continents as a tourist and now as a worker of ADB. I'm a prestige whore and I often ask people around about schools and school prestige. That's how I got into Cambridge and declined the offer I got from Columbia. Never have I been to anywhere where Columbia is better regarded than UC Berkeley.

By the way, please, please tell me you're going to Berkeley too. Or, at least anywhere but Columbia.

I'll tell you my story.
about 5 years ago, i applied to a lot of schools (US term) and universities (UK term) for undergrad education. Been accepted to Columbia, Duke, UPenn, Bowdoin College, Rice, Harvey Mudd and a couple of "fall backs". I was denied admission to Berkeley and MIT. In the UK, I was accepted to Cambridge, Warwick, LSE and Edinburgh. I chose Cambridge in the end.
Now, I'm applying to several top-ranked law schools in the US. I'd be applying to Columbia too, as my fall back. Because honestly, I would be much more thrilled to receive an acceptance from Berkeley than from Columbia. Now you might not agree with me or you might even hate me for saying that. But that's what I like --Berkeley or HYS.

[huckabees]

Please let's not argue about which between the two is more prestigious abroad. I've reside in a lot of countries my past 21 years. I've spent elementary years in the US, in Chicago in particular. High school in Thailand. Intentionality Baccalaureate in Singapore. Undergraduate at Girton College, University of Cambridge, UK. Now work in Asian Development Bank in Manila. My father is Italian. My mother is Japanese. I've been to so many countries in 6 continents as a tourist and now as a worker of ADB. I'm a prestige whore and I often ask people around about schools and school prestige. That's how I got into Cambridge and declined the offer I got from Columbia. Never have I been to anywhere where Columbia is better regarded than UC Berkeley.

By the way, please, please tell me you're going to Berkeley too. Or, at least anywhere but Columbia.

I'll tell you my story.
about 5 years ago, i applied to a lot of schools (US term) and universities (UK term) for undergrad education. Been accepted to Columbia, Duke, UPenn, Bowdoin College, Rice, Harvey Mudd and a couple of "fall backs". I was denied admission to Berkeley and MIT. In the UK, I was accepted to Cambridge, Warwick, LSE and Edinburgh. I chose Cambridge in the end.
Now, I'm applying to several top-ranked law schools in the US. I'd be applying to Columbia too, as my fall back. Because honestly, I would be much more thrilled to receive an acceptance from Berkeley than from Columbia. Now you might not agree with me or you might even hate me for saying that. But that's what I like --Berkeley or HYS.

Samar Island, I get what you are saying, but there's a difference between selectivity and prestige. Berkeley is hard to get into for out of state applicants, not to mention internationals. Columbia is actually very welcoming of internationals.

[sbalive]

But neither is SIAST, that's for sure!

Well done on the obscure reference, but sadly the truth is that SIAST is TTT no matter where you go.

[samar island]

This may be the first and only time that a research program in particle physics has been used to argue for a law school choice.

You did not get my point. I'm not debating which school is superior when it comes to law education. I already said that both are excellent schools for law. What I was arguing about was the claim that Columbia has a "bigger, stronger" name than Berkeley has, as a whole. That just isn't true. Maybe for undergrad it is. Maybe for MBA it is. But as a whole, it isn't. As a whole, Berkeley has a stronger name than has Columbia.

But for law, I suspect they're pretty even. Columbia has a bigger name in the East Coast, whilst Berkeley has a bigger name in the West Coast.

You'll have to forgive me. I'm a humble guy from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and I've really only ever been as far away as Regina. But, I can assure you that in Saskatchewan, Columbia >>> Berkeley. (Also, I really only care about academic programs in tractor engineering.)

Now, i can see why you did get into Columbia Law but not Berkeley Law. Your logic fails. Your comprehension is poor. Good luck on your law schooling.

[sophie316]

My experience of Columbia/Berkeley's prestige in the UK:

'I go to Columbia'
'The south american country???'

'I'm dating a guy that goes to Berkeley'
'Where's that?'

[huckabees]

My experience of Columbia/Berkeley's prestige in the UK:

'I go to Columbia'
'The south american country???'

'I'm dating a guy that goes to Berkeley'
'Where's that?'

Sophie, thanks for your anecdote. That makes me chuckle and be sad at the same time, given that I am likely going to attend CLS.

Are UK people not familiar with the Ivy League?

[sbalive]

This may be the first and only time that a research program in particle physics has been used to argue for a law school choice.

You did not get my point. I'm not debating which school is superior when it comes to law education. I already said that both are excellent schools for law. What I was arguing about was the claim that Columbia has a "bigger, stronger" name than Berkeley has, as a whole. That just isn't true. Maybe for undergrad it is. Maybe for MBA it is. But as a whole, it isn't. As a whole, Berkeley has a stronger name than has Columbia.

But for law, I suspect they're pretty even. Columbia has a bigger name in the East Coast, whilst Berkeley has a bigger name in the West Coast.

You'll have to forgive me. I'm a humble guy from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and I've really only ever been as far away as Regina. But, I can assure you that in Saskatchewan, Columbia >>> Berkeley. (Also, I really only care about academic programs in tractor engineering.)

Now, i can see why you did get into Columbia Law but not Berkeley Law. Your logic fails. Your comprehension is poor. Good luck on your law schooling.

Blame it on not getting into LSE.

I've got to say this - what really impressed me about visiting CLS was that no one talked like this poster. I was really surprised & pleased. People came from great schools, yeah, but it was cool. No need to impress on anyone how their opinions about anything were better because of their academic or professional background. I was very worried that would be the case, and I was wrong. Now, they weren't obnoxious at NYU either, but that wasn't as much of a worry.

So, getting back to the point of this whole thread - I might be wrong, but based on conversations I've had with recent alumni and students, certain aspects of Columbia's rep are not justified. I'm sure there will be a few obnoxious people, but it seems like there are plenty of cool people to hang out with. And, that's all this humble prairie kid is looking for in a big city law school anyway.

[sophie316]

My experience of Columbia/Berkeley's prestige in the UK:

'I go to Columbia'
'The south american country???'

'I'm dating a guy that goes to Berkeley'
'Where's that?'

Sophie, thanks for your anecdote. That makes me chuckle and be sad at the same time, given that I am likely going to attend CLS.

Are UK people not familiar with the Ivy League?

Yes and no. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of people would think that the Ivy League comprises something like Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford.

People that went to private schools and have friends that went to college in the US know of Columbia. I would imagine that those that work for law firms that deal with the US/US law know about Columbia. In terms of getting a job, assuming you are shooting for a job related to directly US law, people will know of Columbia(and NYU, and Berkeley). But your average person on the street will be impressed by Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and MIT.

I would imagine it the same way as most people in the US know of Oxford and Cambridge, but not that University College London as being a very good school(with Ox/Cam being HYPS and UCL being Columbia).

[sophie316]

My experience of Columbia/Berkeley's prestige in the UK:

'I go to Columbia'
'The south american country???'

'I'm dating a guy that goes to Berkeley'
'Where's that?'

titcr. the only well known american schools in the uk are harvard, yale, and possibly princeton and stanford.

I spoke to a Londoner that thought MIT = MI5, so I'm not sure about the prestige of MIT there.

At the end of the day, you're either going to be dealing with someone who is familiar with US colleges or not. If they know the US system, Berkeley/Columbia/NYU/Penn doesn't matter that much because the person will know that they are all good schools. If they don't, then you better hope you went to Harvard, Yale or Stanford. I think it's pretty unlikely that you will come across someone who just happens to know everything about Berkeley and how good it is, but not Columbia, or vice versa.

[MeTalkPrettyOneDay]

But for law, I suspect they're pretty even. Columbia has a bigger name in the East Coast, whilst Berkeley has a bigger name in the West Coast.

Are you a troll? [ Before we start talking, I got my MS from Berkeley and have no degree from Columbia.] The Columbia name seems to blow Berkeley's name out of the water for law, even on the West Coast.

People on the West Coast believe Columbia JD >> Berkeley JD. Berkeley's graduate programs OVERALL are more prestigious than Columbia's, especially in regards to the sciences. But Columbia's law program knocks Berkeley's out of the water. Also for some reason many West Coasters themselves think Columbia is somewhat more prestigious than Berkeley overall...don't know why, but maybe it's the Ivy League syndrome.

You're [supposedly] in Asia, so obviously you have no idea what it is like in America. I believe many Asians think Berkeley is on par with HYS, or slightly behind them, but in America that's not the case at all.

To clarify, as Samar Island did earlier, she was not arguing that Berkeley Law > CLS. I misunderstood her. She was arguing (and continues to argue) that the broader Berkeley University has a strong international reputation than Columbia University. As I've said repeatedly, although at least one seemingly reputable international ranking disputes her assessment, I lack the authority and knowledge to either accept or reject her asssessment. I maintain that internationally CLS > Berkeley Law, but I also maintain that I have no clue which university has a stronger international reputation.

[Cara]

I've worked for a law firm in London.

Outside the US among the educated population generally Berkeley is more well known as a university than Columbia is. However, among non-US lawyers Columbia is much better known as a law school than Berkeley/Boalt. If you ask non-US lawyers to list high ranking US LS they usually list Yale, Harvard and Columbia.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the OP's choice but I thought I would mention it.

[huckabees]

I've worked for a law firm in London.

Outside the US among the educated population generally Berkeley is more well known as a university than Columbia is. However, among non-US lawyers Columbia is much better known as a law school than Berkeley/Boalt. If you ask non-US lawyers to list high ranking US LS they usually list Yale, Harvard and Columbia.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the OP's choice but I thought I would mention it.

Thanks, Cara! It's always nice to have another informed opinion!