New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

[thisismytlsuername]

"Why does anyone care about these rankings?!?" they ask, while simultaneously debating the rankings in the most-active thread TLS has had in months.

[thisismytlsuername]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Ridiculous Penn trolling

[Anonymous User]

Everyone I know at Georgetown who wanted biglaw got it. The top people get COAs and the bottom people miiight strike out. I defy anyone to tell me it's that different than Columbia. Don't tell me it's a cope

For 0Ls: GULC is far, far apart in BL+FC placement from Columbia (or Penn, UVA, Duke) to a degree that's not remotely explaining by self-selection and it's been that way for over a decade.

Just focus on the average cost and the percent of students who get their desired job. None of the other fluff matters.

This doesn’t need to be said because no one seems dissuaded from applying to Gtown, but, if your desired job is in DC and you see Gtown sending 250 students to jobs in DC and negligible amounts going to DC from other top schools, take note. If you want to grind in NYC biglaw, investigate whether you need top 1/3 grades at Gtown to do it (the answer is not even close). If you want portability because you are not sure of Cali v. NY v. Houston, look at where people go from Gtown.

If people took the common TLS advice to focus on biglaw percentages (and the tiny fraction that do FC) while minimizing cost and maximizing scholarships (except maybe HYS) everyone would end out in the Cornell to NYC pipeline. But, though it may be hard to believe, there are many people who have policy, Fed, location etc. ambitions that do not involve spending two years in V20 biglaw or requiring a Yale pedigree.

Yes, people shouldn’t be misled to go to school that will lock them out of opportunities, but they also should not be misled to discounting a school that has more opportunity than those seen based on narrow metrics.

[Anonymous User]

Perceived school quality on this board has always been skewed because clerkship #s only look at students who are clerking within like approx. 9 months of graduation.

Once you look at clerkship #s after a few years, the differences between HYS flatten considerably. Y still beats SH in the very elite clerkships like SCOTUS, but otherwise the absolute % of people with fed clerkship is actually very close between the three schools.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone I know at Georgetown who wanted biglaw got it. The top people get COAs and the bottom people miiight strike out. I defy anyone to tell me it's that different than Columbia. Don't tell me it's a cope

For 0Ls: GULC is far, far apart in BL+FC placement from Columbia (or Penn, UVA, Duke) to a degree that's not remotely explaining by self-selection and it's been that way for over a decade.

Just focus on the average cost and the percent of students who get their desired job. None of the other fluff matters.

This doesn’t need to be said because no one seems dissuaded from applying to Gtown, but, if your desired job is in DC and you see Gtown sending 250 students to jobs in DC and negligible amounts going to DC from other top schools, take note. If you want to grind in NYC biglaw, investigate whether you need top 1/3 grades at Gtown to do it (the answer is not even close). If you want portability because you are not sure of Cali v. NY v. Houston, look at where people go from Gtown.

If people took the common TLS advice to focus on biglaw percentages (and the tiny fraction that do FC) while minimizing cost and maximizing scholarships (except maybe HYS) everyone would end out in the Cornell to NYC pipeline. But, though it may be hard to believe, there are many people who have policy, Fed, location etc. ambitions that do not involve spending two years in V20 biglaw or requiring a Yale pedigree.

Yes, people shouldn’t be misled to go to school that will lock them out of opportunities, but they also should not be misled to discounting a school that has more opportunity than those seen based on narrow metrics.

This. I went to T6 and regret not going to Gtown because I am more interested in those DC opportunities and there is no support here.

[Anonymous User]

Perceived school quality on this board has always been skewed because clerkship #s only look at students who are clerking within like approx. 9 months of graduation.

Once you look at clerkship #s after a few years, the differences between HYS flatten considerably. Y still beats SH in the very elite clerkships like SCOTUS, but otherwise the absolute % of people with fed clerkship is actually very close between the three schools.

This is a myth, lots of Yale, Stanford, and Chicago students also clerk more than a year out so their “have you ever clerked” numbers are still way ahead of other schools’—about 50%. After all what would explain HLS grads clerking substantially later than YLS grads? Imo it’s mostly a culture and class size thing.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone I know at Georgetown who wanted biglaw got it. The top people get COAs and the bottom people miiight strike out. I defy anyone to tell me it's that different than Columbia. Don't tell me it's a cope

Bottom of the class at CLS doesn't strike out, they end up at like Cadwaladar or Fried Frank

Lol. Even Harvard has strike outs and tons who are upset or at least miffed with the results. CLS has its fair share of poor bidders or inept interviewers as well who never get the desired biglaw.

Regarding Gtown, self-selection is a strong driver of results, just like Harvard or Yale or any school. CLS, Cornell, etc. appeal to big law or bust types and Gtown and Harvard and to some degree other schools appeal to public interest or federal work. Ranking systems that do not take this into account will decline in ranking system prestige. Rankings are only good if they match the perception of the combined legal world and lay public opinion, otherwise they will be ignored, just like the mirad of ignored law school rankings from publications that are not USNWR. USNWR has existed for a few decades, the law schools have existed for 150 years. USNWR either matches reality or gets tossed in the dustbin of historical ranking systems.

This was kinda my point tho - CLS people miss big law because they bid poorly or are bad interviewers. There are people who miss big law at Georgetown because of grades

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Ridiculous Penn trolling

Haha I happen to be an HLS graduate actually. Just sharing my view after having practiced for 6 years.

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Ridiculous Penn trolling

Haha I happen to be an HLS graduate actually. Just sharing my view after having practiced for 6 years.

You view the associates you work with based on this ranking? So your top dogs are Yale grads?

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Ridiculous Penn trolling

Haha I happen to be an HLS graduate actually. Just sharing my view after having practiced for 6 years.

You view the associates you work with based on this ranking? So your top dogs are Yale grads?

I think the poster means that when he or she looks at credentials, he or she thinks of the schools in that particular order. So, for example, if the poster saw that a junior associate graduated magna cum laude from Harvard and another junior associate graduate magna cum laude from UVA, the Harvard person's credentials would be more impressive. I don't think the poster means that the Harvard associate would necessarily be better to work with or better at their job, just that their academic pedigree is more impressive, which may or may not be worth anything once you already get hired.

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Ridiculous Penn trolling

Haha I happen to be an HLS graduate actually. Just sharing my view after having practiced for 6 years.

You view the associates you work with based on this ranking? So your top dogs are Yale grads?

I think the poster means that when he or she looks at credentials, he or she thinks of the schools in that particular order. So, for example, if the poster saw that a junior associate graduated magna cum laude from Harvard and another junior associate graduate magna cum laude from UVA, the Harvard person's credentials would be more impressive. I don't think the poster means that the Harvard associate would necessarily be better to work with or better at their job, just that their academic pedigree is more impressive, which may or may not be worth anything once you already get hired.

Yeah but what’s the point of school “prestige” if it has no tangible meaning in the real world. Presumably whatever school is churning out hard hitters and leaders will become the new prestige school. It takes time for that opinion to form, like decades and decades, but no lay or informed opinion can be sustained in the face of lack of evidence.

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Ridiculous Penn trolling

Haha I happen to be an HLS graduate actually. Just sharing my view after having practiced for 6 years.

You view the associates you work with based on this ranking? So your top dogs are Yale grads?

I think the poster means that when he or she looks at credentials, he or she thinks of the schools in that particular order. So, for example, if the poster saw that a junior associate graduated magna cum laude from Harvard and another junior associate graduate magna cum laude from UVA, the Harvard person's credentials would be more impressive. I don't think the poster means that the Harvard associate would necessarily be better to work with or better at their job, just that their academic pedigree is more impressive, which may or may not be worth anything once you already get hired.

I agree with a lot of this list except that I think I’d also put Virginia in the same tier with Columbia Penn and NYU. And I’d elevate Chicago. The elite clerkship placement is consistently far too strong to overlook anymore. Elite litigators outside of NYC generally consider Chicago a cut above NYU and Columbia. This board loves “CCN” but that makes basically no sense anymore, if it ever even did.

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Ridiculous Penn trolling

Haha I happen to be an HLS graduate actually. Just sharing my view after having practiced for 6 years.

You view the associates you work with based on this ranking? So your top dogs are Yale grads?

This is an interesting point insofar as imo, YLS students are not that impressive as actual lawyers (certainly not relative to the hype), yet I personally still vew YLS as the better credential. Don't know why—guess I can't shake it? Maybe because the school is so hard to get into? I'm just a boring NYC Biglaw lawyer though so maybe YLS grads are well known to be geniuses in like the DC appellate world.

[RedNewJersey]

Perceived school quality on this board has always been skewed because clerkship #s only look at students who are clerking within like approx. 9 months of graduation.

Once you look at clerkship #s after a few years, the differences between HYS flatten considerably. Y still beats SH in the very elite clerkships like SCOTUS, but otherwise the absolute % of people with fed clerkship is actually very close between the three schools.

This is a myth, lots of Yale, Stanford, and Chicago students also clerk more than a year out so their “have you ever clerked” numbers are still way ahead of other schools’—about 50%. After all what would explain HLS grads clerking substantially later than YLS grads? Imo it’s mostly a culture and class size thing.

Does the person who posted this have a link to actual "clerkship #s after a few years" that shows the differences flattening?

[Anonymous User]

Perceived school quality on this board has always been skewed because clerkship #s only look at students who are clerking within like approx. 9 months of graduation.

Once you look at clerkship #s after a few years, the differences between HYS flatten considerably. Y still beats SH in the very elite clerkships like SCOTUS, but otherwise the absolute % of people with fed clerkship is actually very close between the three schools.

This is a myth, lots of Yale, Stanford, and Chicago students also clerk more than a year out so their “have you ever clerked” numbers are still way ahead of other schools’—about 50%. After all what would explain HLS grads clerking substantially later than YLS grads? Imo it’s mostly a culture and class size thing.

Does the person who posted this have a link to actual "clerkship #s after a few years" that shows the differences flattening?

Also would like this because Chicago's website says it's more like 33-40%

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Yeah, I could've guessed you went to HLS based on your rankings alone.

[RokosBasilisk2049]

Perceived school quality on this board has always been skewed because clerkship #s only look at students who are clerking within like approx. 9 months of graduation.

Once you look at clerkship #s after a few years, the differences between HYS flatten considerably. Y still beats SH in the very elite clerkships like SCOTUS, but otherwise the absolute % of people with fed clerkship is actually very close between the three schools.

This is a myth, lots of Yale, Stanford, and Chicago students also clerk more than a year out so their “have you ever clerked” numbers are still way ahead of other schools’—about 50%. After all what would explain HLS grads clerking substantially later than YLS grads? Imo it’s mostly a culture and class size thing.

HLS numbers are also close to 50%.

[Anonymous User]

Perceived school quality on this board has always been skewed because clerkship #s only look at students who are clerking within like approx. 9 months of graduation.

Once you look at clerkship #s after a few years, the differences between HYS flatten considerably. Y still beats SH in the very elite clerkships like SCOTUS, but otherwise the absolute % of people with fed clerkship is actually very close between the three schools.

This is a myth, lots of Yale, Stanford, and Chicago students also clerk more than a year out so their “have you ever clerked” numbers are still way ahead of other schools’—about 50%. After all what would explain HLS grads clerking substantially later than YLS grads? Imo it’s mostly a culture and class size thing.

Pretty obvious self selection plays a role. If you're an applicant who greatly cares about doing a clerkship and have offers from YSH, chances are you'll choose Y or S.

If you are an applicant that cares less about clerking you might choose H over YS for other reasons (e.g., location). Y and S class sizes are so small that it really only takes a handful of students flipping to YS solely for clerkship potential to skew the stats.

[Anonymous User]

Perceived school quality on this board has always been skewed because clerkship #s only look at students who are clerking within like approx. 9 months of graduation.

Once you look at clerkship #s after a few years, the differences between HYS flatten considerably. Y still beats SH in the very elite clerkships like SCOTUS, but otherwise the absolute % of people with fed clerkship is actually very close between the three schools.

This is a myth, lots of Yale, Stanford, and Chicago students also clerk more than a year out so their “have you ever clerked” numbers are still way ahead of other schools’—about 50%. After all what would explain HLS grads clerking substantially later than YLS grads? Imo it’s mostly a culture and class size thing.

Pretty obvious self selection plays a role. If you're an applicant who greatly cares about doing a clerkship and have offers from YSH, chances are you'll choose Y or S.

If you are an applicant that cares less about clerking you might choose H over YS for other reasons (e.g., location). Y and S class sizes are so small that it really only takes a handful of students flipping to YS solely for clerkship potential to skew the stats.

That would explain a difference in whether you clerk at all, not the timing of clerkships. The NYU/CLS excuse is always “well we apply in NYC” but YLS and HLS are basically in the same position geographically.

I’m also seriously skeptical that 50% of HLS students eventually clerk; their website says it’s 50-50 between clerking immediately and clerking later, and on their measure, that clerking later number includes students doing second clerkships (unlike Chicago’s referenced above). And Harvard’s clerking immediately rate is only 13%. Plus having 40% of your class doing delayed clerkships would be pretty extraordinary.

For those curious, both CLS and NYU say about 20% of their classes eventually clerk.

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Ridiculous Penn trolling

Haha I happen to be an HLS graduate actually. Just sharing my view after having practiced for 6 years.

You view the associates you work with based on this ranking? So your top dogs are Yale grads?

I think the poster means that when he or she looks at credentials, he or she thinks of the schools in that particular order. So, for example, if the poster saw that a junior associate graduated magna cum laude from Harvard and another junior associate graduate magna cum laude from UVA, the Harvard person's credentials would be more impressive. I don't think the poster means that the Harvard associate would necessarily be better to work with or better at their job, just that their academic pedigree is more impressive, which may or may not be worth anything once you already get hired.

I agree with a lot of this list except that I think I’d also put Virginia in the same tier with Columbia Penn and NYU. And I’d elevate Chicago. The elite clerkship placement is consistently far too strong to overlook anymore. Elite litigators outside of NYC generally consider Chicago a cut above NYU and Columbia. This board loves “CCN” but that makes basically no sense anymore, if it ever even did.

Cross admits were still leaning Columbia as between CCN (including Chicago) until at least a couple years ago, although the general trend may have flattened with recent rankings moves. They don’t favor Columbia by nearly the same margin as Harvard over CCN. Cross admits overwhelmingly favor HLS over Chicago (and Columbia). So this post reflects, if anything, a minority view of Chicago’s relative position, which seems to be based on a single datapoint.

The argument that “elite litigators” favor Chicago over Harvard or Columbia because of Chicago’s published 9mo clerkship numbers makes no sense and misapprehends the process for clerk and lateral hiring. People are hired based primarily on their clerkship. An NYU or Columbia grad with a second circuit or DC Circuit clerkship is not going to lose out to a fellow Chicago clerk because other Chicago students, in the aggregate, have clerked earlier and/or in greater numbers.

(Speaking as a current DOJ official and former lit boutique trial lawyer and district and appellate law clerk)

[Anonymous User]

Perceived school quality on this board has always been skewed because clerkship #s only look at students who are clerking within like approx. 9 months of graduation.

Once you look at clerkship #s after a few years, the differences between HYS flatten considerably. Y still beats SH in the very elite clerkships like SCOTUS, but otherwise the absolute % of people with fed clerkship is actually very close between the three schools.

This is a myth, lots of Yale, Stanford, and Chicago students also clerk more than a year out so their “have you ever clerked” numbers are still way ahead of other schools’—about 50%. After all what would explain HLS grads clerking substantially later than YLS grads? Imo it’s mostly a culture and class size thing.

Pretty obvious self selection plays a role. If you're an applicant who greatly cares about doing a clerkship and have offers from YSH, chances are you'll choose Y or S.

If you are an applicant that cares less about clerking you might choose H over YS for other reasons (e.g., location). Y and S class sizes are so small that it really only takes a handful of students flipping to YS solely for clerkship potential to skew the stats.

That would explain a difference in whether you clerk at all, not the timing of clerkships. The NYU/CLS excuse is always “well we apply in NYC” but YLS and HLS are basically in the same position geographically.

I’m also seriously skeptical that 50% of HLS students eventually clerk; their website says it’s 50-50 between clerking immediately and clerking later, and on their measure, that clerking later number includes students doing second clerkships (unlike Chicago’s referenced above). And Harvard’s clerking immediately rate is only 13%. Plus having 40% of your class doing delayed clerkships would be pretty extraordinary.

For those curious, both CLS and NYU say about 20% of their classes eventually clerk.

If you're choosing a law school based on clerkship chances, you're far more likely to put together clerkship applications while in school and clerk immediately after graduation. I know plenty of people who are clerking 1-2 years out because they just weren't on top of things and applied late.

Not sure what to say, I have access to the raw clerkship data and once you standardize for international students (H's international class is way, way larger than S or Y and international students generally aren't eligible for Fed clerkship) the absolute % of class that clerks is between 35-45% depending on the class year.

[Anonymous User]

The “are Yale and Stanford (and Chicago?) a cut above HLS because of clerkship numbers” debate is only happening on TLS. No one else thinks of Harvard as lesser (or, frankly, of Columbia as lesser than Chicago) outside these forums on that basis. Harvard just has more students.

(Edit caveat—many do think of Yale as superior to both Harvard and Stanford but that’s a different matter)

[Anonymous User]

The “are Yale and Stanford (and Chicago?) a cut above HLS because of clerkship numbers” debate is only happening on TLS. No one else thinks of Harvard as lesser (or, frankly, of Columbia as lesser than Chicago) outside these forums on that basis. Harvard just has more students.

obviously not among laypeople or probably corporate practitioners but clerkship numbers are widely known and arguably the key metric in the elite litigation world. The Chicago/Columbia gap in lit outcomes is a good example of that; they’re pretty similar except that Chicago has a much better clerkship program and thus better representation in government, appellate groups, and lit boutiques even though it’s much smaller.

[Anonymous User]

The “are Yale and Stanford (and Chicago?) a cut above HLS because of clerkship numbers” debate is only happening on TLS. No one else thinks of Harvard as lesser (or, frankly, of Columbia as lesser than Chicago) outside these forums on that basis. Harvard just has more students.

obviously not among laypeople or probably corporate practitioners but clerkship numbers are widely known and arguably the key metric in the elite litigation world. The Chicago/Columbia gap in lit outcomes is a good example of that; they’re pretty similar except that Chicago has a much better clerkship program and thus better representation in government, appellate groups, and lit boutiques even though it’s much smaller.

I also think Chicago has better outcomes in academia than Columbia/NYU, and that this also enters into the mix when part of the reputation score is from profs. (I wouldn’t disagree that self-selection plays a role here, but self-selection tends to become self-perpetuating.) You definitely can succeed in academia coming from Columbia/NYU, but I don’t think culturally it’s as significant there.

(Or I may have just bought too much into Brian Leiter’s obnoxious academic Chicago hype, who knows.)

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

Yeah, I could've guessed you went to HLS based on your rankings alone.

Always thought of Chicago as a great school, but not on the same level as schools like Harvard and Stanford. Not as selective. Prestige, as we all know, is about selectivity. Back when I was applying to law schools several years ago, schools like Chicago and Columbia had to offer scholarships to make their offers as competitive as stickers at schools like Harvard and Stanford. I myself chose Harvard over scholarship offers from Columbia and Chicago. As I practice in a region where firms and clients tend to care about school prestige, I don't regret that decision and will do the same if I were to go back in time.

Things may be different now, and maybe Chicago no longer offers scholarships to draw people away from the top 3 schools. I don't know.