Sticker Price at Berkeley Forum

[eph]

Berkeley at sticker is not that bad if you want biglaw in the bay area. Sure, its not ideal, but I struggle to see how HYS is so much better that some people would justify sticker there, but run like hell from it with Berkeley.

it is that bad. just like hys at sticker is that bad. really inadvisable in either case absent family money.

+1

Only people who say it's not that bad are 0Ls and maybe law students who have never worked and paid off loans before...

Broad generalizations like this are never useful. You end up being wrong about many cases, including this one.

what are you talking about. i assume you're a 0l (edit: posting history confirms), because basically anyone who has gone to law school, including ppl at hys, will tell you hys at sticker is a bad idea. i go to hys and i will tell you hys at sticker is simply not worth it unless you are loaded. if you're talking about someone quoting a pi guy is usnews re lipp, just lol. paye is fine.

All depends on how you want to live your life. The 1%, who are the people you will someday be competing with if you are thinking about things like t14, start sending their kids to 35K a year preschools at the age of 3. Then off to 50k a year tuition + expenses private schools for the next 13 years. Private college for 4 years at 75k a year, and by the time the kid starts applying to law school the sunk cost is 1.1 million. Factor in gifts to the old ivy alma mater and maybe we are up to 2 million. And the costs for becoming a virtuoso on the oboe or lacrosse or hockey that was the scale tipper for admission to that fancy undergrad. In Hong Kong China Japan maybe another 200k+ for tutors and coaches. And still the odds of even facing the choice of, is HYS law worth the 300k, are slim at best. There are tens of thousands globally, and don't kid yourself these are global schools, who would write a 5+ million check today for a guaranteed HYS law admission for their toddlers. And only slightly less for schools with the global cache of Berkeley.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Berkeley at sticker is not that bad if you want biglaw in the bay area. Sure, its not ideal, but I struggle to see how HYS is so much better that some people would justify sticker there, but run like hell from it with Berkeley.

it is that bad. just like hys at sticker is that bad. really inadvisable in either case absent family money.

+1

Only people who say it's not that bad are 0Ls and maybe law students who have never worked and paid off loans before...

Broad generalizations like this are never useful. You end up being wrong about many cases, including this one.

what are you talking about. i assume you're a 0l (edit: posting history confirms), because basically anyone who has gone to law school, including ppl at hys, will tell you hys at sticker is a bad idea. i go to hys and i will tell you hys at sticker is simply not worth it unless you are loaded. if you're talking about someone quoting a pi guy is usnews re lipp, just lol. paye is fine.

All depends on how you want to live your life. The 1%, who are the people you will someday be competing with if you are thinking about things like t14, start sending their kids to 35K a year preschools at the age of 3. Then off to 50k a year tuition + expenses private schools for the next 13 years. Private college for 4 years at 75k a year, and by the time the kid starts applying to law school the sunk cost is 1.1 million. Factor in gifts to the old ivy alma mater and maybe we are up to 2 million. And the costs for becoming a virtuoso on the oboe or lacrosse or hockey that was the scale tipper for admission to that fancy undergrad. In Hong Kong China Japan maybe another 200k+ for tutors and coaches. And still the odds of even facing the choice of, is HYS law worth the 300k, are slim at best. There are tens of thousands globally, and don't kid yourself these are global schools, who would write a 5+ million check today for a guaranteed HYS law admission for their toddlers. And only slightly less for schools with the global cache of Berkeley.

What on earth does this have to do with whether going to HYS at sticker makes sense if you're not actually loaded?

[eph]

You do it because someday you want to be loaded. And they will lend you the money to do it. And if you don't get the loaded career, or you find something far better to do like making the world a nicer place, they will help you pay it back. Leverage, the foundation of capitalism.

[foxes]

You do it because someday you want to be loaded. And they will lend you the money to do it. And if you don't get the loaded career, or you find something far better to do like making the world a nicer place, they will help you pay it back. Leverage, the foundation of capitalism.

[eph]

Alright let's try a nicer tack. Millions are flocking to Bernie's cause and one of the center pieces of his vision is education as the great equalizer (really nothing new there). The engine of socioeconomic equality. Yes free is best but the cost doesn't negate the argument. The only chance you will ever have of joining their club is going to their schools (well there is the lotto). Leverage, the foundation of democratic socialism. Works either way. Insert the political philosophy of your choice.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

The mental illness ITT is astounding.

People who go to Harvard already come from loaded families. Harvard doesn't make them loaded (unless you can marry into money). Most likely, it would just make you middle class if you were poor before.

Also people who pay tons of money for their dumb children to go to expensive private pre and elementary schools are just stupid, regardless of how much money they have.

[eph]

Silly. Let's just use a few examples. Bill Gates wasn't loaded. Zuckerberg wasn't loaded. The Clinton's (Yale but the same), Obama's, Blankfein, Diamond, the list is long. You do know the best schools balance their admissions and provide huge economic incentives for the less privileged. Best estimates say over 3000 Harvard alum are worth more than 200 million with 60 billionaires. Education. The great equalizer. Oh and the lottery.

[jbagelboy]

Silly. Let's just use a few examples. Bill Gates wasn't loaded. Zuckerberg wasn't loaded. The Clinton's (Yale but the same), Obama's, Blankfein, Diamond, the list is long. You do know the best schools balance their admissions and provide huge economic incentives for the less privileged. Best estimates say over 3000 Harvard alum are worth more than 200 million with 60 billionaires. Education. The great equalizer. Oh and the lottery.

The point is not that one shouldn't invest in education, its more that you can go to basically the same program with the same opportunities for far less life-crippling debt (or study for a couple months to retake the LSAT to save hundreds of thousands) whenever you're comparing sticker with scholarship.

But I think you know you're being silly here and you don't actually believe anecdotal explosive wealth success stories from a university can influence median-driven decision making.

Becoming a lawyer, even with a degree from an ivy league school, will rarely if ever make you wealthy if you weren't rich to start with; in fact, the debt holds you back for a decade.

[jbagelboy]

Also, college is totally different. At Harvard College, for example, you will never be in a debt squeeze since either your parents have the resources to support you or you receive full financial aid. The university endowment is immensely generous to the undergraduate population and its never a bad choice. The law schools at these universities are cash cows that generate revenue for the endowment; its a completely different system and type of investment.

[RZ5646]

Silly. Let's just use a few examples. Bill Gates wasn't loaded. Zuckerberg wasn't loaded. The Clinton's (Yale but the same), Obama's, Blankfein, Diamond, the list is long. You do know the best schools balance their admissions and provide huge economic incentives for the less privileged. Best estimates say over 3000 Harvard alum are worth more than 200 million with 60 billionaires. Education. The great equalizer. Oh and the lottery.

I think Gates and Zuck actually were born rich (i.e., at least upper-middle class).

[eph]

Silly. Let's just use a few examples. Bill Gates wasn't loaded. Zuckerberg wasn't loaded. The Clinton's (Yale but the same), Obama's, Blankfein, Diamond, the list is long. You do know the best schools balance their admissions and provide huge economic incentives for the less privileged. Best estimates say over 3000 Harvard alum are worth more than 200 million with 60 billionaires. Education. The great equalizer. Oh and the lottery.

The point is not that one shouldn't invest in education, its more that you can go to basically the same program with the same opportunities for far less life-crippling debt (or study for a couple months to retake the LSAT to save hundreds of thousands) whenever you're comparing sticker with scholarship.

But I think you know you're being silly here and you don't actually believe anecdotal explosive wealth success stories from a university can influence median-driven decision making.

Becoming a lawyer, even with a degree from an ivy league school, will rarely if ever make you wealthy if you weren't rich to start with; in fact, the debt holds you back for a decade.

You are right in a lot of ways. I simply grow tired of the HYS bashing and since graduation is a couple weeks away, and I doubt I will ever darken this particular internet hallway again, I take one more stab at it. Kind of like Ahab and his whale. The cost of something and the value of something are often not the same. Art, collectibles, animated movies (Frozen is worth a billion, Minions??? Star Wars? hell the new one is just a remake of the old one). Debt is a dangerous double edged sword. Home ownership was in the past one of the greatest drivers of personal wealth. Leverage provided by us the US, us. Look what happened there. I get the fear of the burden of debt. Something like 50% of all legal actions in many jurisdictions are debt collections. And student debt follows you to the grave. Maybe beyond if they could figure a way. But many of these arguments are over the 50k or 100k difference between x and y. Not all or nothing. According to many here HYS should be ghost towns. Maybe, maybe not.

[rpupkin]

Silly. Let's just use a few examples. Bill Gates wasn't loaded. Zuckerberg wasn't loaded. The Clinton's (Yale but the same), Obama's, Blankfein, Diamond, the list is long. You do know the best schools balance their admissions and provide huge economic incentives for the less privileged. Best estimates say over 3000 Harvard alum are worth more than 200 million with 60 billionaires. Education. The great equalizer. Oh and the lottery.

I think Gates and Zuck actually were born rich (i.e., at least upper-middle class).

Bill Gates's father was a named partner at a big law firm. Zuckerberg came from a UMC family; he went to Phillips Exeter Academy for high school.

I more or less agree with eph's point but Gates and Zuckerberg are poor supporting examples.

[eph]

Silly. Let's just use a few examples. Bill Gates wasn't loaded. Zuckerberg wasn't loaded. The Clinton's (Yale but the same), Obama's, Blankfein, Diamond, the list is long. You do know the best schools balance their admissions and provide huge economic incentives for the less privileged. Best estimates say over 3000 Harvard alum are worth more than 200 million with 60 billionaires. Education. The great equalizer. Oh and the lottery.

I think Gates and Zuck actually were born rich (i.e., at least upper-middle class).

Gates' father was a lawyer. Zuckerberg's a dentist. The value of education. I rest my case. I mean come on they didn't come from generational wealth like all of their following offspring and relatives will. However not the best examples. See above post.

[Shootin]

Silly. Let's just use a few examples. Bill Gates wasn't loaded. Zuckerberg wasn't loaded. The Clinton's (Yale but the same), Obama's, Blankfein, Diamond, the list is long. You do know the best schools balance their admissions and provide huge economic incentives for the less privileged. Best estimates say over 3000 Harvard alum are worth more than 200 million with 60 billionaires. Education. The great equalizer. Oh and the lottery.

The point is not that one shouldn't invest in education, its more that you can go to basically the same program with the same opportunities for far less life-crippling debt (or study for a couple months to retake the LSAT to save hundreds of thousands) whenever you're comparing sticker with scholarship.

But I think you know you're being silly here and you don't actually believe anecdotal explosive wealth success stories from a university can influence median-driven decision making.

Becoming a lawyer, even with a degree from an ivy league school, will rarely if ever make you wealthy if you weren't rich to start with; in fact, the debt holds you back for a decade.

Pay it off aggressively in 5 years and be done with. And it depends on how you define "wealthy." Is it being able to buy $1m house and a few nice cars? Or is it a $20m house and a plane? You could argue that one needs to be wealthy to afford the former, which is obtainable for lawyers. Either way, "wealthy" or not, I think financial rewards are considerable and worthwhile to attend HYS (and similar) at sticker. I think we would all agree with your first paragraph, but these are different topics.

[abl]

Berkeley at sticker is not that bad if you want biglaw in the bay area. Sure, its not ideal, but I struggle to see how HYS is so much better that some people would justify sticker there, but run like hell from it with Berkeley.

it is that bad. just like hys at sticker is that bad. really inadvisable in either case absent family money.

+1

Only people who say it's not that bad are 0Ls and maybe law students who have never worked and paid off loans before...

Broad generalizations like this are never useful. You end up being wrong about many cases, including this one.

what are you talking about. i assume you're a 0l (edit: posting history confirms), because basically anyone who has gone to law school, including ppl at hys, will tell you hys at sticker is a bad idea. i go to hys and i will tell you hys at sticker is simply not worth it unless you are loaded. if you're talking about someone quoting a pi guy is usnews re lipp, just lol. paye is fine.

This just simply isn't true. I went to HYS, am not from a wealthy family (and have received no help from my family), have a ton of debt, and personally feel like my call was worth it. I've also been practicing and paying my debt for several years -- and that hasn't changed my mind. (And yes, I graduated recently enough that "sticker" when I graduated was materially similar to "sticker" today, and the post-grad market is virtually identical now as to when I graduated.) I'm sure there are a lot of people at my HYS who don't think sticker is worth it. But I also know that a lot of my not-loaded classmates are happy they made the sticker decision that they did. During my three years of law school and my several years post-graduation, I've encountered very few people paying sticker who say they regret their decision--and yes, if you're hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, this is a conversation you sometimes have with your friends. That's not to say that nobody regrets this decision; I'm sure lots of people do. But it's highly misleading to say that only a 0L who doesn't know better could possibly say that sticker at HYS is a good call, or that all or even most HYS grads who paid sticker think it's the wrong call.

(It's also very possible that there's significant variation within HYS on this subject. Although the schools often get grouped together, there are pretty huge differences in experience and outcomes for Yale vs Stanford vs Harvard. And it wouldn't surprise me if the "sticker satisfaction" rates coming out of, say, Yale, are pretty substantially different from, say, Harvard. I think one of the pretty under-appreciated advantages provided by HYS relative to somewhere like Michigan is the extent of access to actually rewarding and somewhat-lucrative legal jobs. I suspect, though, that the rate of Harvard grads who find themselves in these positions is not equivalent to the rate of Yale grads who do--which, among other things, could explain a potential satisfaction gap between these two schools. [My sense is that Stanford's closer to Yale than to Harvard in this department, but this really all is speculation.])

[jbagelboy]

Berkeley at sticker is not that bad if you want biglaw in the bay area. Sure, its not ideal, but I struggle to see how HYS is so much better that some people would justify sticker there, but run like hell from it with Berkeley.

it is that bad. just like hys at sticker is that bad. really inadvisable in either case absent family money.

+1

Only people who say it's not that bad are 0Ls and maybe law students who have never worked and paid off loans before...

Broad generalizations like this are never useful. You end up being wrong about many cases, including this one.

what are you talking about. i assume you're a 0l (edit: posting history confirms), because basically anyone who has gone to law school, including ppl at hys, will tell you hys at sticker is a bad idea. i go to hys and i will tell you hys at sticker is simply not worth it unless you are loaded. if you're talking about someone quoting a pi guy is usnews re lipp, just lol. paye is fine.

This just simply isn't true. I went to HYS, am not from a wealthy family (and have received no help from my family), have a ton of debt, and personally feel like my call was worth it. I've also been practicing and paying my debt for several years -- and that hasn't changed my mind. (And yes, I graduated recently enough that "sticker" when I graduated was materially similar to "sticker" today, and the post-grad market is virtually identical now as to when I graduated.) I'm sure there are a lot of people at my HYS who don't think sticker is worth it. But I also know that a lot of my not-loaded classmates are happy they made the sticker decision that they did. During my three years of law school and my several years post-graduation, I've encountered very few people paying sticker who say they regret their decision--and yes, if you're hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, this is a conversation you sometimes have with your friends. That's not to say that nobody regrets this decision; I'm sure lots of people do. But it's highly misleading to say that only a 0L who doesn't know better could possibly say that sticker at HYS is a good call, or that all or even most HYS grads who paid sticker think it's the wrong call.

(It's also very possible that there's significant variation within HYS on this subject. Although the schools often get grouped together, there are pretty huge differences in experience and outcomes for Yale vs Stanford vs Harvard. And it wouldn't surprise me if the "sticker satisfaction" rates coming out of, say, Yale, are pretty substantially different from, say, Harvard. I think one of the pretty under-appreciated advantages provided by HYS relative to somewhere like Michigan is the extent of access to actually rewarding and somewhat-lucrative legal jobs. I suspect, though, that the rate of Harvard grads who find themselves in these positions is not equivalent to the rate of Yale grads who do--which, among other things, could explain a potential satisfaction gap between these two schools. [My sense is that Stanford's closer to Yale than to Harvard in this department, but this really all is speculation.])

Yea the whole HYS thing was developed to describe admission selectivity and its extension to other areas of the legal field is basically a TLS invention. Debt at yale is relative since you can take whatever job you want and the school will pay it off. When a YLS admit asks be about sticker I'm far less hesitant to recommend it than other t6 schools

[RZ5646]

. Debt at yale is relative since you can take whatever job you want and the school will pay it off. When a YLS admit asks be about sticker I'm far less hesitant to recommend it than other t6 schools

Harvard's LIPP is quite flexible as well. You don't even need to have a legal job if you work for a nonprofit, the government, or an academic institution.

[jbagelboy]

But moreover the whole discourse on "regret" when it comes to taking on student loans is misleading and sort of disingenuous due to choice supportive bias and cognitive dissonance (which is deeply neurally connected to the negative emotional response of regret). So no shit actual law students aren't often regretting their choice to attend a top school.

[Tiago Splitter]

. Debt at yale is relative since you can take whatever job you want and the school will pay it off. When a YLS admit asks be about sticker I'm far less hesitant to recommend it than other t6 schools

Harvard's LIPP is quite flexible as well. You don't even need to have a legal job if you work for a nonprofit, the government, or an academic institution.

There are plenty of good reasons to go to HYS, even without aid. But if your goal is to end up with the most money possible, those schools are generally a poor choice.

[RZ5646]

. Debt at yale is relative since you can take whatever job you want and the school will pay it off. When a YLS admit asks be about sticker I'm far less hesitant to recommend it than other t6 schools

Harvard's LIPP is quite flexible as well. You don't even need to have a legal job if you work for a nonprofit, the government, or an academic institution.

There are plenty of good reasons to go to HYS, even without aid. But if your goal is to end up with the most money possible, those schools are generally a poor choice.

Absolutely. If you're trying to become wealthy* or even just upper-middle class, take the lower T14 scholly. That's just simple math.

* The 1%er lifestyle that some TLSers seem to want isn't a reasonable goal for anyone who isn't already rich.

[abl]

But moreover the whole discourse on "regret" when it comes to taking on student loans is misleading and sort of disingenuous due to choice supportive bias and cognitive dissonance (which is deeply neurally connected to the negative emotional response of regret). So no shit actual law students aren't often regretting their choice to attend a top school.

Absolutely: there's good reason to distrust what both HYS students say about sticker and what students with scholarships not at HYS say about sticker. My point was really just that the often-repeated refrain on this site that the "[o]nly people who say [sticker's] not that bad are 0Ls and maybe law students who have never worked and paid off loans before" is flat-out wrong: my educated guess is that somewhere between 'many' and 'a majority of' recently graduated HYS students would say that sticker at HYS is worth it. Certainly, the number is greater than zero.

[foxes]

(It's also very possible that there's significant variation within HYS on this subject.

this is definitely fair, i take your point.

[bruinfan10]

But moreover the whole discourse on "regret" when it comes to taking on student loans is misleading and sort of disingenuous due to choice supportive bias and cognitive dissonance (which is deeply neurally connected to the negative emotional response of regret). So no shit actual law students aren't often regretting their choice to attend a top school.

Absolutely: there's good reason to distrust what both HYS students say about sticker and what students with scholarships not at HYS say about sticker. My point was really just that the often-repeated refrain on this site that the "[o]nly people who say [sticker's] not that bad are 0Ls and maybe law students who have never worked and paid off loans before" is flat-out wrong: my educated guess is that somewhere between 'many' and 'a majority of' recently graduated HYS students would say that sticker at HYS is worth it. Certainly, the number is greater than zero.

i've worked exclusively with top of the class hys kids the past two years (and connected socially with many more), and i disagree with your point that there are a substantially higher number of "lucrative unicorn law jobs" available to those students (absent possibly academia for some yalies, etc).

most of them either work at firms, government, or PI like other grads. they worry about their loan balances like other grads, they just generally have much higher loan balances than their similarly credentialed peers who went to law school on scholarships. in fact, as with other grads, the ones who get to avoid biglaw and do fun gov/pi gigs are often the ones who come from serious family money. the middle class hys kids i know more often than not slog it out in biglaw to rack up some cash just like everyone else.

that said, i'm sure the hys lrap programs can soften the blow somewhat, but if a yalie kid ends up in biglaw like every other t14 grad, 300k debt is still terrible. biglaw is still terrible.

[mogwli]

Guys this thread is way off topic. This isn't about HYS sticker price, it's Berkeley. There are probably valid arguments on both sides for HYS at sticker. Berkeley is another matter. I don't have personal experience with Berkeley, but I can say with some strong confidence that it probably doesn't have the strong graduate support systems that HYS do.

Berkeley sticker price isn't worth it.

The people ITT who are talking about "wealth" and "debt" and "Zuckerberg" are dumb undergraduates who have never dealt with the practicalities of what life as a lawyer is like and what $100k+ debt actually feels like year to year.

[bruinfan10]

Guys this thread is way off topic. This isn't about HYS sticker price, it's Berkeley. There are probably valid arguments on both sides for HYS at sticker. Berkeley is another matter. I don't have personal experience with Berkeley, but I can say with some strong confidence that it probably doesn't have the strong graduate support systems that HYS do.

Berkeley sticker price isn't worth it.

The people ITT who are talking about "wealth" and "debt" and "Zuckerberg" are dumb undergraduates who have never dealt with the practicalities of what life as a lawyer is like and what $100k+ debt actually feels like year to year.

i'm not sure it's completely off topic. the resounding reply to OP's question early on was that berkeley is not worth sticker, but some people threw on the caveat that hys might be. tiago and i mentioned that even hys at 300k (if you wind up in biglaw) is a terrible decision. thus, berkeley at 300k is an exponentially worse decision, and sticker is a stupid stupid idea anytime, barring family money (or blind faith in a debt forgiveness program).