Cornell (Half) vs. StJohn's (Full) Forum

[Lavitz]

Btw, I noticed you referencing Cornell as "we"...are you currently enrolled in Cornell Law School or an alumni/faculty member?

Yes. 3L, graduating in 2 weeks.

[gator_guy93]

Pretty overwhelmingly response for Cornell in this thread. Can't say I disagree!!

[Nachoo2019]

I've never seen a more lopsided poll. Lol OP the decision is crystal clear

[silverdoe91]

Btw, I noticed you referencing Cornell as "we"...are you currently enrolled in Cornell Law School or an alumni/faculty member?

Yes. 3L, graduating in 2 weeks.

Congrats! Is it alright if I PM you for more information about Cornell?

[Lavitz]

Congrats! Is it alright if I PM you for more information about Cornell?

Sure.

[Barack O'Drama]

Like everyone else has said, and 100% of the votes as of now point to:

If you want a chance at meaningful employment take Cornell.

Anecdote: I know a girl who attended St. Johns graduated in the top-half of her class. Took the bar. She got her real estate license within a year after because despite being smart, good looking, and growing up and having ties in Brooklyn, she could not find a job as a lawyer at all. Granted she only tried to really look for the better part of a year..but damn!

If you don't want to retake, Cornell seems like the only reasonable option. They place really well in NYC Big Law and I'm pretty sure you could get a gig in PI. Something else to consider is the far reaching name of Cornell which allows you to get jobs other places if you so choose. You never really know for sure where you'll want to practice and what until you've actually gone to law school. Just some stuff to consider.

Either way, congrats on your chance to go to a good law school.

Thanks! I love your username and profile pic btw!

Thanks for the anecdote. It's definitely a reality check. I don't want to spend the 140k, but if I have no other choice, I guess I should. Do you think Fordham with a full ride with be a worthy alternative? Idk how well they fare with public interest jobs though. I'll have to do some more research....I wish job placement statistics weren't so vague!

Haha thanks man! Fordham is definitely better than SJU, there really is no question in my mind about that, but I guess you seem to be very debt adverse which is totally the way to be. I have no real life advice about their PI placement beyond some internet research and it doesn't seem like it is worth attending for such a small chance. My honest opinion is that Cornell is worth it, even with way more debt. You have such a good chance at a good job, and I guess worst case ask yourself: Would you rather be debt free, or near debt free with a 15-20% chance at a job as a lawyer. Or would you rather be $150K in debt with a 90% chance at a job as a lawyer? I know of more than a few examples of people who could have had the better chance of a job, albeit with debt, at a T-14 but went to a T2/T3 and now work in jobs that don't require a law degree, or something that is JD preferred and not even needed. One is a teacher, another a real estate agent, and one is a policy analyst for a mayor.

Have you tried to negotiate to get more $$$ Cornell?

[silverdoe91]

Like everyone else has said, and 100% of the votes as of now point to:

If you want a chance at meaningful employment take Cornell.

Anecdote: I know a girl who attended St. Johns graduated in the top-half of her class. Took the bar. She got her real estate license within a year after because despite being smart, good looking, and growing up and having ties in Brooklyn, she could not find a job as a lawyer at all. Granted she only tried to really look for the better part of a year..but damn!

If you don't want to retake, Cornell seems like the only reasonable option. They place really well in NYC Big Law and I'm pretty sure you could get a gig in PI. Something else to consider is the far reaching name of Cornell which allows you to get jobs other places if you so choose. You never really know for sure where you'll want to practice and what until you've actually gone to law school. Just some stuff to consider.

Either way, congrats on your chance to go to a good law school.

Thanks! I love your username and profile pic btw!

Thanks for the anecdote. It's definitely a reality check. I don't want to spend the 140k, but if I have no other choice, I guess I should. Do you think Fordham with a full ride with be a worthy alternative? Idk how well they fare with public interest jobs though. I'll have to do some more research....I wish job placement statistics weren't so vague!

Haha thanks man! Fordham is definitely better than SJU, there really is no question in my mind about that, but I guess you seem to be very debt adverse which is totally the way to be. I have no real life advice about their PI placement beyond some internet research and it doesn't seem like it is worth attending for such a small chance. My honest opinion is that Cornell is worth it, even with way more debt. You have such a good chance at a good job, and I guess worst case ask yourself: Would you rather be debt free, or near debt free with a 15-20% chance at a job as a lawyer. Or would you rather be $150K in debt with a 90% chance at a job as a lawyer? I know of more than a few examples of people who could have had the better chance of a job, albeit with debt, at a T-14 but went to a T2/T3 and now work in jobs that don't require a law degree, or something that is JD preferred and not even needed. One is a teacher, another a real estate agent, and one is a policy analyst for a mayor.

Have you tried to negotiate to get more $$$ Cornell?

No! How do I do that?

[Barack O'Drama]

I'm not really an expert at this, but I've read like 100+ threads on here of people negotiating scholarships by pinning other offers against the offer of the school you are considering.

Try emailing Cornell and ask if they are willing to reconsider your financial aid package. Let them know you are highly interested in attending, and would be willing to pull the trigger and attend with X amount of dollars. Also, use your full-tuition at SJU as a bargaining chip. It is late in the cycle, but this may very well net you something. However, they are not peer schools, so whereas a full scholly at UVA would function as a much better bargaining chip, SJU will not. That said, it doesn't hurt to ask..

[gator_guy93]

Like everyone else has said, and 100% of the votes as of now point to:

If you want a chance at meaningful employment take Cornell.

Anecdote: I know a girl who attended St. Johns graduated in the top-half of her class. Took the bar. She got her real estate license within a year after because despite being smart, good looking, and growing up and having ties in Brooklyn, she could not find a job as a lawyer at all. Granted she only tried to really look for the better part of a year..but damn!

If you don't want to retake, Cornell seems like the only reasonable option. They place really well in NYC Big Law and I'm pretty sure you could get a gig in PI. Something else to consider is the far reaching name of Cornell which allows you to get jobs other places if you so choose. You never really know for sure where you'll want to practice and what until you've actually gone to law school. Just some stuff to consider.

Either way, congrats on your chance to go to a good law school.

Thanks! I love your username and profile pic btw!

Thanks for the anecdote. It's definitely a reality check. I don't want to spend the 140k, but if I have no other choice, I guess I should. Do you think Fordham with a full ride with be a worthy alternative? Idk how well they fare with public interest jobs though. I'll have to do some more research....I wish job placement statistics weren't so vague!

Haha thanks man! Fordham is definitely better than SJU, there really is no question in my mind about that, but I guess you seem to be very debt adverse which is totally the way to be. I have no real life advice about their PI placement beyond some internet research and it doesn't seem like it is worth attending for such a small chance. My honest opinion is that Cornell is worth it, even with way more debt. You have such a good chance at a good job, and I guess worst case ask yourself: Would you rather be debt free, or near debt free with a 15-20% chance at a job as a lawyer. Or would you rather be $150K in debt with a 90% chance at a job as a lawyer? I know of more than a few examples of people who could have had the better chance of a job, albeit with debt, at a T-14 but went to a T2/T3 and now work in jobs that don't require a law degree, or something that is JD preferred and not even needed. One is a teacher, another a real estate agent, and one is a policy analyst for a mayor.

Have you tried to negotiate to get more $$$ Cornell?

No! How do I do that?

Might be hard to get more money out of Cornell by comparing your St. John's offer just bc they are not considered peer schools. But couldn't hurt to try. Not like they'll take away any money because you asked for more.

[HonestAdvice]

The difference between Cornell and only school's employment below it is night and day, but there are material differences even among second tier schools in New York when you look across big law, public interest and DA's offices. Cardozo doesn't have a particularly good reputation, but it's definitely better regarded than Brooklyn and Brooklyn is definitely better regarded than SJU. Top 10% at SJU still might not cut it. This is anecdotal but the people from these schools I've seen succeed are often the smartest person in the room, hardest working and most socially intelligent. Quite frankly, there's no way there are 30 some odd people like them in their graduating class. It's as though they need to be better than the person to their right to get to the same spot. Just some food for thought.

[Rigo]

Do you have any offers between Cornell and St. John's? Maybe a T20 school or so?

[Traynor Brah]

You would be a literal moron to choose St Johns over Cornell here.

[Toby Ziegler]

Btw, I noticed you referencing Cornell as "we"...are you currently enrolled in Cornell Law School or an alumni/faculty member?

Yes. 3L, graduating in 2 weeks.

Damn, Lavitz. I remember talking to you about Cornell when you were a 1L.

OP, maybe you're only obtuse on the internet, but if your seeming inability to engage in reasonable dialogue extends beyond these forums, you may consider taking a year or two off to gain some (more?) work experience. I mean this in all sincerity. It seems you, like many others before you, asked for advice wanting validation for the decision you want to make. But with the information you have provided, all sound arguments lead to Cornell.

[silverdoe91]

Btw, I noticed you referencing Cornell as "we"...are you currently enrolled in Cornell Law School or an alumni/faculty member?

Yes. 3L, graduating in 2 weeks.

Damn, Lavitz. I remember talking to you about Cornell when you were a 1L.

OP, maybe you're only obtuse on the internet, but if your seeming inability to engage in reasonable dialogue extends beyond these forums, you may consider taking a year or two off to gain some (more?) work experience. I mean this in all sincerity. It seems you, like many others before you, asked for advice wanting validation for the decision you want to make. But with the information you have provided, all sound arguments lead to Cornell.

Well, I don't know what it says about YOUR character that you resort to calling someone names and insults right off the bat, but the reason why I'm considering SJU even though I got an offer from Cornell, is because the latter is very far away from where I live and very expensive. Even with the half scholarship I would STILL incur a lot of debt, not to mention have to pay interest for all my living expenses. That seems like a very "obtuse" thing for me to do. Especially if I have a full tuition offer on the table as well. However, I do acknowledge that Cornell is an Ivy and would increase my chances of finding a job. I don't know by how much though, since I do know people who graduated SJU and have found jobs (BigLaw and others.) So as much as I appreciate the offer from Cornell, I don't know if it's worth the 150k sacrifice, plus being far away from my family, friends, and life in NYC, which is why I came onto this forum to gauge other people's opinions.

[Rigo]

Do you have any offers between Cornell and St. John's? Maybe a T20 school or so?

[silverdoe91]

Do you have any offers between Cornell and St. John's? Maybe a T20 school or so?

Just UCLA but their scholarship offer was less than Cornell's, so even with their lower tuition I don't think it'd be worth it. I also heard back from Fordham today which is not T20 but still T50. I got accepted but I still need to hear back about their scholarship offer.

[silverdoe91]

You would be a literal moron to choose St Johns over Cornell here.

You'd be surprised, but I've had people tell me the exact opposite, off of this forum. They said I'd be foolish to turn down a full ride to incur 150k in debt. So I think if your argument had a little bit more reasoning behind it, rather than insults, it would be more convincing.

[silverdoe91]

The difference between Cornell and only school's employment below it is night and day, but there are material differences even among second tier schools in New York when you look across big law, public interest and DA's offices. Cardozo doesn't have a particularly good reputation, but it's definitely better regarded than Brooklyn and Brooklyn is definitely better regarded than SJU. Top 10% at SJU still might not cut it. This is anecdotal but the people from these schools I've seen succeed are often the smartest person in the room, hardest working and most socially intelligent. Quite frankly, there's no way there are 30 some odd people like them in their graduating class. It's as though they need to be better than the person to their right to get to the same spot. Just some food for thought.

Thank you for the honest advice! But really though, that is what I needed to hear! I've seen that in my own professional experience; I've worked in a corporate law firm & non-profit, and in both places I've seen a lot more Cardozo students employed than either SJU or Brooklyn. Cardozo does seem to have a good reputation in NY, but now that their rank has fallen to be tied with SJU I wonder if that changes things?

I went to a Cardozo open house and they gave us a mock intro class about reading the law, and the professor who worked there had previously worked in the White House for the Obama Administration! I was pretty impressed, not just by her credentials but also by the class she taught. I thought it was very informative, and not what I expected for a Tier 2 school. So I don't want to rule out Cardozo if they give me a full ride, especially since it's in a location that I like and is convenient for me.

[Rigo]

I wish you had applied more broadly. WUSTL would have likely been a full ride and a good bargaining chip.
I get that you're hesitant to take on the debt, but it's a steep fall from Cornell to St. John's.

[Dcc617]

OP, have you in fact checked out law school transparency? The numbers it lays out are objective and clear.

True, you COULD end up with a great job and zero debt from SJU. That's totally possible. It's just exceedingly unlikely, your anecdotes notwithstanding. It's much more likely you get a bad law job if you can even find one.

Maybe you'd be better off retaking and reapplying if you don't want Cornell to this extent.

[silverdoe91]

I'm not really an expert at this, but I've read like 100+ threads on here of people negotiating scholarships by pinning other offers against the offer of the school you are considering.

Try emailing Cornell and ask if they are willing to reconsider your financial aid package. Let them know you are highly interested in attending, and would be willing to pull the trigger and attend with X amount of dollars. Also, use your full-tuition at SJU as a bargaining chip. It is late in the cycle, but this may very well net you something. However, they are not peer schools, so whereas a full scholly at UVA would function as a much better bargaining chip, SJU will not. That said, it doesn't hurt to ask..

I wanted to do that with UCLA since that's closer in ranks to Cornell, but alas, they gave me a smaller scholarship than Cornell, so it won't work.

Would emailing Cornell and telling them my offer at SJU offend them in any way and cause them to rescind my offer at Cornell? Because I really don't want that to happen, lol.

[mornincounselor]

You would be a literal moron to choose St Johns over Cornell here.

You'd be surprised, but I've had people tell me the exact opposite, off of this forum. They said I'd be foolish to turn down a full ride to incur 150k in debt. So I think if your argument had a little bit more reasoning behind it, rather than insults, it would be more convincing.

You have to realize that the vast majority of people (including successful non-lawyers, old lawyers, your career guidance counselors etc.) just have no idea of the realities of the legal market today. We on this forum do.

Historically SJU places about 10% of their graduates into BL, Cornell places 65-75% into BL or FedClerk. Let's assume for a second that the 10% at SJU is not entirely diverse candidates or those with connections or those in IP you still have to probably be the number one kid in your section to have a shot and that's assuming the market doesn't get any worse. At Cornell at median or a little under you are golden.

$150k in debt is scary, but it's about the average for law grads today and you have the chance to attend a much MUCH better than average school here.

[silverdoe91]

I wish you had applied more broadly. WUSTL would have likely been a full ride and a good bargaining chip.
I get that you're hesitant to take on the debt, but it's a steep fall from Cornell to St. John's.

Yeah, I know, right now I'm more hoping for a full ride from Cardozo or maybe Fordham. Those schools have better reps in NYC.

[Rigo]

I wish you had applied more broadly. WUSTL would have likely been a full ride and a good bargaining chip.
I get that you're hesitant to take on the debt, but it's a steep fall from Cornell to St. John's.

Yeah, I know, right now I'm more hoping for a full ride from Cardozo or maybe Fordham. Those schools have better reps in NYC.

You should get really good Cardozo money, but their employment prospects are still pretty meh iirc.

[Draconem]

Please, please take Cornell.