Penn vs. Michigan Forum

[jbagelboy]

NYU has great placement, but I don't think a single soul would consider the institution to be prestigious.

This right here, this is a strong statement. Damn.

Its not a strong statement, its just a stupid statement, and it has nothing to do with the conversation.

[Biglaw1990]

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[jbagelboy]

The long post explaining why OCI success rates dont matter is taking up a lot of space to try to obscure a pretty basic point: however you spin it, Michigan does a lot worse than Penn. The biggest flaw with OCI numbers is that they miss people who get biglaw outside of OCI, which is probably ~5-10% at top schools. That doesn't negate the at least 15% margin in placement power between these two schools.

If you want to work at a large firm, you're best off at Penn. If you're fully committed to PI, Michigan for cheaper is arguably better, but you have to look to the specific offerings at each school and where the organizations you're interested in recruit from.

I don't disagree with you I just want to clarify a premise. The whole "is better for biglaw " thing is based on the notion that firms either
A. Will dig deeper into the class for grads from a certain school or
B.Would rather have a grad from a certain school over another.

Do firms really make significant distinctions withing the non t-6 t14s though. Their admission stats are almost identical so it's not like one school would have a much stronger class than others.

I totally understand why firms would prefer a HYSCCN grad over others in the t14 but I'm not sure why they would draw meaningful lines between the rest of the t14.

I'm just saying that a non-negligible number more Penn students who try for biglaw get it over Michigan students. I'm not trying to make some broad strokes statement of prestige or what all firms think or see. Penn kids do better at OCI, and they place into more selective firms (outfits like Wachtell and MTO recruit from Penn but rarely if ever from Michigan).

[jbagelboy]

I used the word "prestige" because the poster, to whom I was responding, said firms prefer T6 students because they consider them to be more highly regarded. In responding to the poster, I was emphasizing that a school night place a lot of students in a market because of the location of the school and not the reputation of the school.
I interpreted "better regarded" with "prestige." Maybe I was wrong for doing so, but that's what I thought the previous poster meant.

Okay, fair enough. I think the core point that I've been trying to hammer away at is that if you want to work at a large firm, its probably going to be in new york, and new york firms recruit very heavily from certain schools -- what we on tls call "t6" -- and Penn is a lot closer to those than somewhere like Michigan. Just look at summer class composition and OCI data. You might not consider NYU prestigious, but it does well with firm placement.

[jbagelboy]

(zuck call-in)

[Biglaw1990]

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[cron1834]

Mich has definitely fallen off over a generation or two; it's clearly below HYSCCNP, whereas it used to be an also-ran to Harvard & Yale. It's not Penn for NY purposes, to be sure. On the other hand, A LOT of people at Mich are not interested in NY, or are interested in PI, so I think it's fair to say the placement power is understated by NY biglaw numbers a bit. Both things can be true; the truth is surely somewhere in the middle.

More interesting to me is where Mich's numbers will be in a few years ... after pumping out ~400 students/year for some time, there are 275 1Ls, and ~315 2Ls & 3Ls. This won't be known until each class graduates, obviously, so we'll just have to wait and see.

OP has strange career plans, geographic goals that indicate the Midwest, bleeding heart tendencies, and has Mich well cheaper than Penn ... so, I voted Mich, and thus they are wining the poll.

Full disclosure - I go to Mich and will be doing NY biglaw this summer.

[bananatopia]

deleted

[Tls2016]

Regarding Michigan and employment:

This is from a few years ago when schools didn't have to report students they hired. The fellowship program seems to have been around for a decade? I don't know if it's the same program as now. Could be completely different.


http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... e.html?m=1

[bananatopia]

deleted

[Aeon]

OP, given your projected costs of attendance at the schools you're considering and your desire for geographical (and possibly practice area) flexibility, I'm leaning toward Michigan here. Have you visited any of these schools yet?

[slizerd]

OP, given your projected costs of attendance at the schools you're considering and your desire for geographical (and possibly practice area) flexibility, I'm leaning toward Michigan here. Have you visited any of these schools yet?

I visited Penn and loved Philly, but didn't love Penn's campus. I prefer a more traditional campus feel (where there is a distinction between the campus and the city), and Penn was kind of blended in with Philly/Drexel campus/other campuses.
I'm visiting Michigan very soon and I'm really hoping I like the feel of it, for the reasons you mentioned.

[slizerd]

On that note, I feel like I should apologize to OP for participating in a bit of a tangent. General statements as to the relative placement strength of various schools doesn't specifically answer her questions. My position, that Michigan students do about as well in New York, if they target it, implies, in converse, that they don't really do that much better in non-NY markets. The idea is that in the t-14, geographic placement is hugely influenced by self-selection/ties. What isn't self-selection is the overall legal employment percentage, and to a lesser degree, the percentage of grads in the most desirable jobs, defined as inclusively as reasonably possible. Penn's placement is 8% to 11% stronger than Michigan's on those measures, and that's probably about the gap in biglaw odds, if that's what you want starting out of school. If I were targeting biglaw as my first job out of school, I'd consider paying the 56k extra for Penn that you quoted in your OP. What makes me hesitate is that, if you want your career trajectory to be biglaw -> applicant side immigration, you probably want to avoid corporate practice, because it will have so little to do with your long term employment goals. That will probably reduce your odds of getting biglaw proportionately at both schools. Essentially, you'll have to turn down, or more likely, avoid targeting, a certain percentage of biglaw opportunities, just to preserve your biglaw -> immigration trajectory, because it's not super realistic to expect to transition to any kind of public interest work after working in m&a for three years. So for me, Penn for 56k more than Mich would be a wash, in terms of costs/outcomes. Penn certainly costs quite a bit more, but it also gives you a significantly higher chance of starting your career off on the right foot (which, most importantly means employed full-time long-term (not by your school or yourself) practicing law). So I would decide based on feel. That very much includes how you subjectively feel about a.) being in significantly less/more debt; and b.) having significantly lower/higher risk of unemployment. Different people can rationally weigh these two types of risks very differently. But it should also include how you feel about the environment of the law school and the city. It's probably smart to put substantial weight on non-cost, non-placement factors anyway. You do have to spend a non-trivial portion of your life at the place you choose.

This was extremely helpful, thank you! I'm very debt averse, but also extremely unemployment-averse (naturally), so I keep going back and forth between the two. You make a great point about the feel of the school, Penn's didn't feel really community-oriented, but I think I could still see myself there. I'm visiting Mich soon, so I will be able to weigh in on if its feel is worth the added risk.

[slizerd]

Your job goals are confusing to me. You won't learn anything about immigration in biglaw outside of any pro bono. You would be trying to be hired out of biglaw as a mid level attorney with no experience, taking a massive pay cut and no shown interest in immigration work.
Could you explain your plan a little better?
Do you know anything about immigration law or practice now?

All of these posts are eye-opening; the students at Penn I spoke to who want immigration law as their endgame but are doing biglaw first were saying that as long as you do something immigration related during 1L summer, it is feasible to transition into immigration after biglaw.
One of the girls I spoke to said Mich would actually be a better option because of their LRAP, and said this would be the best plan (assuming that these opportunities are available): do immigration/PI during 1L summer, firm & after graduation 2L summer, and do biglaw to save up money while paying min loan payments, then within 5 years transition into immigration/PI so that, since it's a markedly lower paying job, Mich's LRAP still applies.
She seemed completely confident that this was doable and practical, but the advice here is definitely not reaffirming that

[Tls2016]

You are making a lot of assumptions about your future in that post. I'm not sure where to start unpacking them.
How do you even know you can find something immigration related after 1L? Are there many immigration PI groups that take volunteers for the summer? A couple of places I've volunteered with in the city can't take volunteers because they don't have space for them or time for training for a few months. Find out what exists in your area as you will be working for free.

Then you are assuming biglaw (after you've done PI for your summer) which is not a given no matter which school you choose. People strike out. You don't just walk into biglaw because you go to a certain school, you can maximize your chances.

Then you are assuming you will just stay in biglaw, a job you don't want, for 5 years. I liked biglaw but it wasn't for most people and by year 5 almost everyone is gone. The mass exodus starts at year 2 if not a little sooner.

Then you are assuming some unknown PI group will hire you as an experienced attorney who knows nothing about immigration law and taking a pay cut from mid 6 figures to 5 figures. ( edit: you could easily be looking at a drop of 75% of your salary) And you have no demonstrable commitment to immigration. Most attorneys will be working in immigration from day one or have worked in immigration even well before law school.

You didn't answer my question: do you know anything about immigration or have you done any immigration work? It's repetitive and tedious while at the same time extremely high stakes. The reality is that there is almost nothing you can do to help people other than drag out the amount of time they can stay or tell them to continue to not be picked up. It can be demoralizing as hell.

I don't know how Michigans LRAP will help you. Why wouldn't you just pay off your debt in biglaw?

My bet is you will end up doing some kind of corporate law and doing at best one or two immigration cases as pro bono every once in a while.

if you want to know more about hiring in possible immigration non profits, contact them. They don't have much money or resources and hire few lawyers. Ask them how likely it will be they will even survive 8 years and if they would hire a biglaw attorney with no experience. If you don't know, non lawyers can be accredited to represent immigrants. Nonprofits use accredited representatives instead of lawyers to save money because they can't afford a lawyers salary.

[Toodle-loo]

You are making a lot of assumptions about your future in that post. I'm not sure where to start unpacking them.
How do you even know you can find something immigration related after 1L? Are there many immigration PI groups that take volunteers for the summer? A couple of places I've volunteered with in the city can't take volunteers because they don't have space for them or time for training for a few months. Find out what exists in your area as you will be working for free.

Then you are assuming biglaw (after you've done PI for your summer) which is not a given no matter which school you choose. People strike out. You don't just walk into biglaw because you go to a certain school, you can maximize your chances.

Then you are assuming you will just stay in biglaw, a job you don't want, for 5 years. I liked biglaw but it wasn't for most people and by year 5 almost everyone is gone. The mass exodus starts at year 2 if not a little sooner.

Then you are assuming some unknown PI group will hire you as an experienced attorney who knows nothing about immigration law and taking a pay cut from mid 6 figures to 5 figures. ( edit: you could easily be looking at a drop of 75% of your salary) And you have no demonstrable commitment to immigration. Most attorneys will be working in immigration from day one or have worked in immigration even well before law school.

You didn't answer my question: do you know anything about immigration or have you done any immigration work? It's repetitive and tedious while at the same time extremely high stakes. The reality is that there is almost nothing you can do to help people other than drag out the amount of time they can stay or tell them to continue to not be picked up. It can be demoralizing as hell.

I don't know how Michigans LRAP will help you. Why wouldn't you just pay off your debt in biglaw?

My bet is you will end up doing some kind of corporate law and doing at best one or two immigration cases as pro bono every once in a while.

if you want to know more about hiring in possible immigration non profits, contact them. They don't have much money or resources and hire few lawyers. Ask them how likely it will be they will even survive 8 years and if they would hire a biglaw attorney with no experience. If you don't know, non lawyers can be accredited to represent immigrants. Nonprofits use accredited representatives instead of lawyers to save money because they can't afford a lawyers salary.

I'm not sure sliz is making any "assumptions" that any of the rest of us don't make when we build basic "plans" for the future. Of course one can't just walk into Biglaw, but how many people on TLS say nothing other than "Biglaw is my plan for a few years and then I'll move to (blahblahblah)"? It would be great if one could see the future exactly before choosing a school, but none of us can, so we make basic plans and remain flexible in the future where we must.

If you don't see how Michigan's LRAP would be helpful, it makes me think you don't know a lot about the program. Their LRAP program is absolutely incredible for anyone with debt working in a low-paying legal job. Paying off the debt in Biglaw is an option, sure, but you could also go on IBR/PAYE/rePAYE during that time, max out your retirement contributions, and then use the extra money to save for a house or something instead of throwing it to loans. Or you could pay most of the loans off, save what you can, and use LRAP if there's a little left. Or perhaps OP won't go into Biglaw at all like you've mentioned is possible, goes straight into Immigration or PI, and uses LRAP for a full 10 years. WHO KNOWS. The option is relevant, though.

Why did this conversation turn into one quizzing OP about how much they know about the law they want to pursue? What does it matter at this point? There have been people who knew BUNDLES of crap about the type of law they planned to go into, got to law school, and ended up in a completely different field. None of this is helpful to the potential position that each law school and relative debt load serves OPs CURRENT goals as they exist with as much info as OP currently has.

You asked for a plan and Sliz gave you the general idea that other Penn and Michigan students have given on how students with similar goals are currently working to reach those goals. I don't understand why anything else is necessary for the purposes of choosing a school.

[slizerd]

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I like you

[Toodle-loo]

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I like you

Hey, I like you too!

[Tls2016]

You are making a lot of assumptions about your future in that post. I'm not sure where to start unpacking them.
How do you even know you can find something immigration related after 1L? Are there many immigration PI groups that take volunteers for the summer? A couple of places I've volunteered with in the city can't take volunteers because they don't have space for them or time for training for a few months. Find out what exists in your area as you will be working for free.

Then you are assuming biglaw (after you've done PI for your summer) which is not a given no matter which school you choose. People strike out. You don't just walk into biglaw because you go to a certain school, you can maximize your chances.

Then you are assuming you will just stay in biglaw, a job you don't want, for 5 years. I liked biglaw but it wasn't for most people and by year 5 almost everyone is gone. The mass exodus starts at year 2 if not a little sooner.

Then you are assuming some unknown PI group will hire you as an experienced attorney who knows nothing about immigration law and taking a pay cut from mid 6 figures to 5 figures. ( edit: you could easily be looking at a drop of 75% of your salary) And you have no demonstrable commitment to immigration. Most attorneys will be working in immigration from day one or have worked in immigration even well before law school.

You didn't answer my question: do you know anything about immigration or have you done any immigration work? It's repetitive and tedious while at the same time extremely high stakes. The reality is that there is almost nothing you can do to help people other than drag out the amount of time they can stay or tell them to continue to not be picked up. It can be demoralizing as hell.

I don't know how Michigans LRAP will help you. Why wouldn't you just pay off your debt in biglaw?

My bet is you will end up doing some kind of corporate law and doing at best one or two immigration cases as pro bono every once in a while.

if you want to know more about hiring in possible immigration non profits, contact them. They don't have much money or resources and hire few lawyers. Ask them how likely it will be they will even survive 8 years and if they would hire a biglaw attorney with no experience. If you don't know, non lawyers can be accredited to represent immigrants. Nonprofits use accredited representatives instead of lawyers to save money because they can't afford a lawyers salary.

I'm not sure sliz is making any "assumptions" that any of the rest of us don't make when we build basic "plans" for the future. Of course one can't just walk into Biglaw, but how many people on TLS say nothing other than "Biglaw is my plan for a few years and then I'll move to (blahblahblah)"? It would be great if one could see the future exactly before choosing a school, but none of us can, so we make basic plans and remain flexible in the future where we must.

If you don't see how Michigan's LRAP would be helpful, it makes me think you don't know a lot about the program. Their LRAP program is absolutely incredible for anyone with debt working in a low-paying legal job. Paying off the debt in Biglaw is an option, sure, but you could also go on IBR/PAYE/rePAYE during that time, max out your retirement contributions, and then use the extra money to save for a house or something instead of throwing it to loans. Or you could pay most of the loans off, save what you can, and use LRAP if there's a little left. Or perhaps OP won't go into Biglaw at all like you've mentioned is possible, goes straight into Immigration or PI, and uses LRAP for a full 10 years. WHO KNOWS. The option is relevant, though.

Why did this conversation turn into one quizzing OP about how much they know about the law they want to pursue? What does it matter at this point? There have been people who knew BUNDLES of crap about the type of law they planned to go into, got to law school, and ended up in a completely different field. None of this is helpful to the potential position that each law school and relative debt load serves OPs CURRENT goals as they exist with as much info as OP currently has.

You asked for a plan and Sliz gave you the general idea that other Penn and Michigan students have given on how students with similar goals are currently working to reach those goals. I don't understand why anything else is necessary for the purposes of choosing a school.

I looked for the Michigan LRAP and only found the basic government plan, if you can show me the correct ones, I would appreciate it.

It makes a huge difference if OP has a background in immigration already. If she had that background, she might have a better chance at getting a job in it later. I agree most 0Ls know nothing about the area they intend to practice. I was the same. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. I think there would be far fewer miserable lawyers if people understood the actual work. OP should learn more about what she wants to do as it is a challenging area of law and doesn't look to be reformed anytime soon.

As for her plan, as mentioned, her problem will be trying to find a job ina field she nothing about, has zero experience in a technical and complicated area of law ,and has shown absolutely no interest in the field. Her plan for her future won't work. People who are dedicated to a PI cause have already been volunteering or working in it in college. That demonstrated interested is essential to being hired in PI. On top of that she will have to convince them that she will be happy with a huge pay cut. Employers are understandably skeptical about this.

I suggested that OP contact some PI immigration groups in her area to ask them about hiring. Maybe she will get information that will help her plan her career in a more realistic manner. Listening to the plans of other law students isn't that helpful.

Edit to add: most posters onTLS aren't planning to leave biglaw for PI. They plan to stay in firms or goin house. There is a divide between PI and biglaw paths that starts very early.

[Tls2016]

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I like you

I'm giving you advice based on working in biglaw for 5 years and volunteering with several immigration PIs in NYC. If you aren't interested I'm happy to bow out.

[krads153]

Michigan's LRAP link: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... yment.aspx

The difference between Michigan's LRAP from most of the T-14 is that it's not just tied to non profit work:

So the program is not limited to public interest jobs?
No, we do not require that employment be in public interest or public service. We really want our graduates to do the legal work they want to do, whether that is for a public interest organization, the government, or a small law firm in a sparsely populated area. The breadth of our program distinguishes it from most other similar programs.

That said, if you have no PI background it will be hard lateralling from biglaw from PI. I know a handful of people who have done this, but they did pro bono throughout biglaw and have second languages....most people who went into PI that I knew went straight out of law school. PI orgs are skeptical of biglawyers and won't really believe you're serious about PI if you haven't done a good amount of PI work in the past. Also, I think there's generally a stigma going from biglaw to PI (like you care too much about money...)

Also biglaw is pretty much irrelevant for PI work - there's basically no overlap beyond basic research and writing. So you'd know nothing useful for PI.

(My spouse does attorney hiring at a non-profit and I would estimate 95% of the attorneys there went straight into PI from law school)

[Toodle-loo]

I looked for the Michigan LRAP and only found the basic government plan, if you can show me the correct ones, I would appreciate it.

https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... MangPP.pdf
^This is a pretty good resource.

It makes a huge difference if OP has a background in immigration already. If she had that background, she might have a better chance at getting a job in it later. I agree most 0Ls know nothing about the area they intend to practice. I was the same. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. I think there would be far fewer miserable lawyers if people understood the actual work. OP should learn more about what she wants to do as it is a challenging area of law and doesn't look to be reformed anytime soon.

This isn't a thread about satisfaction in career or OP asking what kind of law they should go into. This is a thread about which school to choose given current goals.

As for her plan, as mentioned, her problem will be trying to find a job in a field she nothing about, has zero experience in a technical and complicated area of law ,and has shown absolutely no interest in the field. Her plan for her future won't work. People who are dedicated to a PI cause have already been volunteering or working in it in college. That demonstrated interested is essential to being hired in PI. On top of that she will have to convince them that she will be happy with a huge pay cut. Employers are understandably skeptical about this.

What is this, a job interview? Sliz doesn't have to demonstrate experience to YOU. You have no idea what her experience so far has been, and as I referenced above, she doesn't NEED experience yet.

I suggested that OP contact some PI immigration groups in her area to ask them about hiring. Maybe she will get information that will help her plan her career in a more realistic manner. Listening to the plans of other law students isn't that helpful.

And that's good advice, I'm not shitting on that advice. But you went on for a huge paragraph about why OPs plan wasn't a good plan and counseling her on whether her career goals are realistic, and that isn't what she was asking for .

[cron1834]

Mich LRAP is solid... with that said, I agree that OP has bizarre career goals that don't make a lot of sense. Not uncommon for a 0L, as toodles points out... but it's still fair to identify as a red flag.

[052220152]

penn is only 1 spot ahead of michigan in the rankings. not worth 50k imo.

[Biglaw1990]

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