Ok, I think I've narrowed it down to three now. Bear with me, buddies Forum

[fliptrip]

If I read correctly, OP does not just have an amorphous "commitment to PI". OP has an established track record working on a specific issue. If OP is making this move to law school to deepen her impact within that path, she's already made some huge financial choices and concessions. But, that's what people who choose their work with their conscience and not with their rational utility maximizing brains do.

Making this kind of commitment has myriad consequences, many of which I feel confident (just my feeling, I have no evidence) OP has already made. So, basically, OP has to decide whether she can stay committed to this path for 10 years straight...a ton of things can happen...as she said, her current organization could fold, she could get fired, she could get blackballed, she could get disbarred, there could be a dramatic change in the immigration/naturalization regime that obviates the type of work she does, and if any of those things happen, she and her family will be in a tough spot for sure. But, there's also a chance it works out. She sticks as an attorney at her current organization or a similar one and does great work that advances a cause she has given her life to. LRAP/PSLF works out and she's free of student loan debt in 10 years.

I just see OP in a different light. She's not the 22 year old K-JD who was getting ready to go to UNLV to accommodate her boyfriend's mediocre LSAT scores with the vague desire to go into "health law" as someone with a history degree. This OP already has the grown up pants on big time.

[BigZuck]

If I read correctly, OP does not just have an amorphous "commitment to PI". OP has an established track record working on a specific issue. If OP is making this move to law school to deepen her impact within that path, she's already made some huge financial choices and concessions. But, that's what people who choose their work with their conscience and not with their rational utility maximizing brains do.

Making this kind of commitment has myriad consequences, many of which I feel confident (just my feeling, I have no evidence) OP has already made. So, basically, OP has to decide whether she can stay committed to this path for 10 years straight...a ton of things can happen...as she said, her current organization could fold, she could get fired, she could get blackballed, she could get disbarred, there could be a dramatic change in the immigration/naturalization regime that obviates the type of work she does, and if any of those things happen, she and her family will be in a tough spot for sure. But, there's also a chance it works out. She sticks as an attorney at her current organization or a similar one and does great work that advances a cause she has given her life to. LRAP/PSLF works out and she's free of student loan debt in 10 years.

I just see OP in a different light. She's not the 22 year old K-JD who was getting ready to go to UNLV to accommodate her boyfriend's mediocre LSAT scores with the vague desire to go into "health law" as someone with a history degree. This OP already has the grown up pants on big time.

Not sure if this was addressed to me but I didn't mean to say or imply that the OP is immature or not a grown up. I agree with this, but I think that having a kid/being married changes the calculus somewhat. I was just trying to say that I think the OP needs to make sure she is doing all this for the right reasons and must remove emotions surrounding things like not having the proper title or whatever. Stakes and costs are just too high here.

I actually think it's really cool that the OP has this commitment and wants to do this with her life, you almost never see something like this on TLS. It's just that the OP needs to think all this through carefully and make sure she's not in the same place 4 years from now, except with 100K+ debt hanging over her head. Not to mention the OP is only 24, is she sure she'll want to do this stuff when she's 37?

It's a big decision and I'm sure the OP has thought it through but she needs to keep thinking it through IMO. That's all I was trying to say, didn't mean to be pedantic.

[fliptrip]

Not to mention the OP is only 24, is she sure she'll want to do this stuff when she's 37?

No, Zuck, I was moreso responding to PnJ, but I do 100% agree with you. This is a BIG one. The stakes couldn't be higher really. Generally when you're 24 your choices should be ones that preserve or increase your long-term flexibility. As someone who's been both 24 and on the other side of 30, the whole what will you want to do at 37 question is a very real thing. Sticker at Berkeley counting on LRAP is the opposite of promoting flexibility.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think the OP sounds about as well-positioned to do the work she wants to do as anyone is. And while I get people's concerns about the family/kids, I also think that's a very personal decision that only the OP can make, and I also don't think that having kids means having to pass on opportunities to advance and develop in a career, even if it's expensive. (Again, I think that goes down to personal choices about what you value and what you think is necessary for raising kids.)

I honestly don't know where that leads me wrt to the OP's choices because there are legitimate pros/cons to all of them. I suppose the consolation to OP is that if there isn't a clear right answer, there may not be a clear wrong answer, either.

[cron1834]

If it were my money, the choice would come down to how much faith you have in PSLF/LRAP working out. It sounds like OP is pretty much guaranteed a qualifying job with her organization (and could get another one if the org folded)... but, on the other hand, no one has yet seen the 10-year PSLF thing actually pay off. And LRAPs are subject to change.

Tough call. Lots of PI people are presented with this dilemma. I don't know what the answer is.

[BigZuck]

I think the OP sounds about as well-positioned to do the work she wants to do as anyone is. And while I get people's concerns about the family/kids, I also think that's a very personal decision that only the OP can make, and I also don't think that having kids means having to pass on opportunities to advance and develop in a career, even if it's expensive. (Again, I think that goes down to personal choices about what you value and what you think is necessary for raising kids.)

I honestly don't know where that leads me wrt to the OP's choices because there are legitimate pros/cons to all of them. I suppose the consolation to OP is that if there isn't a clear right answer, there may not be a clear wrong answer, either.

I don't think there's much disagreement here, if any at all. I'm certainly not trying to say that the OP should pass on career advancement or that it isn't a personal decision.

I guess I'm just thinking about my personal experience and interactions I have had with government and PI lawyers. I'm sure you (and probably the OP) have a lot more interactions there than I have. But from what I have seen there tends to be two camps (these are over generalizations of course): People who are very satisfied with what they do because it matters and they don't care about the money they make. And then people who have become pretty jaded and almost beaten down by the work they do. Honestly, from what I have seen the second group sometimes seem like the majority, or at least a very visible minority. I know it's impossible to predict what will happen down the line and all of life is a risk and it does sound like the OP is well-positioned to do this. But, she is just 24 and there are some pretty substantial risks here.

Lots of people I know or have heard of who (but certainly not everyone, I'll admit) have gone into "impactful PI" or whatever you want to call it come from families who have money. Or spouses who have money. Or they are single so YOLO. The OP is young, has a kid, has an undocumented husband, and doesn't have family support to fall back on. I don't think it's necessarily a bad decision or anything, but there's a ton of stuff to weigh here and all I was saying is just think about it, a lot. I don't think this can really be overthought, IMO.

Good luck OP. For what it's worth I think it's cool that you've found something that you're so passionate about and I'm sure you'll make the best decision you can for you and your family.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, that makes sense, and I agree about the impactful PI thing and the risk of burnout/getting jaded (though I think that's kind of endemic to all law!). I think the real kind of grassroots work in a specific community that the OP seems to be describing has less of that privilege/coming from money thing than prestige impact litigation does, but it is something to consider.

[fliptrip]

Yeah, that makes sense, and I agree about the impactful PI thing and the risk of burnout/getting jaded (though I think that's kind of endemic to all law!). I think the real kind of grassroots work in a specific community that the OP seems to be describing has less of that privilege/coming from money thing than prestige impact litigation does, but it is something to consider.

At least OP has had a chance to see the beast for exactly what it is. She's worked closely with the clients and has been in the disputes, so nothing that awaits her post law school should be a surprise. I could definitely see the "passionate" and "committed" PI person who has never spent a meaningful minute in their lives around the people they are so "committed" to helping freaking the f out when they see what's really going on with folks.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

How did we get 50 posts into this thread without anyone asking whether OP, who has a broke undocumented husband and a child she presumably wants to raise in a safe part of getting-more-unaffordable-every-year Oakland, might be better served taking a job that lets her build a real nest egg, at least for a few years?

The PI focus/commitment is admirable, but given that that door will basically always be open and the door allowing her to make more than a pittance won't, it perhaps is not the most responsible path.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Except she's currently working in the field she wants to pursue, and has said that she would get a big raise if she became a lawyer. I don't think taking an unrelated job for money is actually the way to go here, in that this is someone who's already done a lot of the work of building a career in a particular area, and switching gears for a stretch would undo that.

[fliptrip]

Except she's currently working in the field she wants to pursue, and has said that she would get a big raise if she became a lawyer. I don't think taking an unrelated job for money is actually the way to go here, in that this is someone who's already done a lot of the work of building a career in a particular area, and switching gears for a stretch would undo that.

It's clear why you are who you are Nony. I would not have been able to write this good of a retort to MO's statement.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Except she's currently working in the field she wants to pursue, and has said that she would get a big raise if she became a lawyer. I don't think taking an unrelated job for money is actually the way to go here, in that this is someone who's already done a lot of the work of building a career in a particular area, and switching gears for a stretch would undo that.

Depends on whether that "big raise," can actually cover day care, a safe neighborhood with good schools, a minimal level of savings etc. Someone on a typical PI salary with not a lot of spousal help living in the Bay Area might have a serious issue providing that. If they can't, you can throw that "I've been building toward this" stuff out the window as a sunk cost.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Except she's currently working in the field she wants to pursue, and has said that she would get a big raise if she became a lawyer. I don't think taking an unrelated job for money is actually the way to go here, in that this is someone who's already done a lot of the work of building a career in a particular area, and switching gears for a stretch would undo that.

Depends on whether that "big raise," can actually cover day care, a safe neighborhood with good schools, a minimal level of savings etc. Someone on a typical PI salary with not a lot of spousal help living in the Bay Area might have a serious issue providing that. If they can't, you can throw that "I've been building toward this" stuff out the window as a sunk cost.

It more depends on whether that big raise can cover what the OP wants it to cover. Those are her choices to make, not yours.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I don't really feel like it's a particular egregious intrusion to say "If only one option maximizes your family's security/opportunities/overall well-being, you should at least consider that option."

Which is moot regardless, because those things can't be disregarded in favor of what OP "wants" to do, since safe streets for her family to walk, adequate daycare, a good school to send her kid to etc. are presumably also things she wants. And it's quite possible that a PI salary plus a "broke" undocumented guy's salary doesn't cover those things in the Bay Area.

[A. Nony Mouse]

This is just all getting a little too into people's parenting choices for me. Safe/adequate/good are fairly subjective.

[fliptrip]

This is just all getting a little too into people's parenting choices for me.

+1

[Unfathomableruckus]

I don't really feel like it's a particular egregious intrusion to say "If only one option maximizes your family's security/opportunities/overall well-being, you should at least consider that option."

Which is moot regardless, because those things can't be disregarded in favor of what OP "wants" to do, since safe streets for her family to walk, adequate daycare, a good school to send her kid to etc. are presumably also things she wants. And it's quite possible that a PI salary plus a "broke" undocumented guy's salary doesn't cover those things in the Bay Area.

I'll put in my two cents about this. I currently live in a rather low income immigrant neighborhood, but in a gated community so it's super safe. We get by ok, and I am currently paying $800/month for daycare, so without that cost, we'd feel rich! When I graduate, my husband could organize his schedule so that he could work while the kid is in school and then pick her up, so no daycare would need to be paid for. I figure that with the raise is get, and with loan payments, I'd still be in slightly better shape now. Plus, my husband should have his green card by the end of the year, so he'd be making more too. I'm mostly worried about my kid's schooling, but I think she should get pretty good scholarships thanks to her dad being an indigenous Guatemalan immigrant with a sixth grade education. Honestly, even if our combined income was only about 1000 more than it is now, that would be great for me.

[NUDad]

This is a very difficult decision. There is no question that Berkeley would be the best choice for you, not considering finances. Your job is there, your home and your young daughter is there, you did your UG there, etc. Everything is on the east side of the bay.

But, please don't take that on at full sticker, especially not for PI work. It's just too risky. Come on, Berkeley, do the right thing and help out this woman!

Honestly, I think that if you cannot get some assistance from Berkeley, I would recommend taking the LSAT again, try to improve your score by 3-4 points and re-apply next year. That would put you in the money.

[krads153]

Lots of people I know or have heard of who (but certainly not everyone, I'll admit) have gone into "impactful PI" or whatever you want to call it come from families who have money. Or spouses who have money. Or they are single so YOLO.

Generally agree with your post. Anecdotal, but people I know working in PI.....:

- Parents have net worth 10 million (most of it liquid) and paid for that person's law school; plus they pay part of that person's rent
- Father is a big time Hollywood celebrity actor (you'd know the name if I mentioned it)
- Parents own tons of rental properties in the Bahamas
- Husband works in big pharma industry
- Husband is an investment banker
- Parents bought this person a 4 million dollar apartment in Manhattan - not to mention this person has a trust fund of 30 million

If you don't have rich parents/rich spouse, it's just so risky paying sticker with debt for PI. PI is littered with trust fund kids who don't have to make the same kind of big sacrifices to go to law school and work in PI as most of us would have to.

[twenty]

Tough call. Lots of PI people are presented with this dilemma. I don't know what the answer is.

It is a tough call, and it's going to vary a lot by person. There is a universe of difference between the typical entry-TLSer who wants to do "public interest, but maybe mergers or environmental law, idk!" and OP, who knows what working in direct legal services is like, knows exactly what they want out of law school, and doesn't care about/yet still understands the money aspect. The problem with the first person is that so often they get swept up into OCI and then onto biglaw, only to realize later on that they could have attended a lower ranked school with a better scholarship and not have had to put half their income towards student loans. I tend to take someone a lot more seriously if they've lived on a low income (even if not for very long) than I do a K-JD who thinks they'd be just dandy on 60k/year.

[twenty]

Does anyone know if WT still lurks around on TLS? OP would probably do well to hear directly from a former Berkeley student that does effectively what she wants to do.

edit> WT call in

[fliptrip]

I don't really feel like it's a particular egregious intrusion to say "If only one option maximizes your family's security/opportunities/overall well-being, you should at least consider that option."

Which is moot regardless, because those things can't be disregarded in favor of what OP "wants" to do, since safe streets for her family to walk, adequate daycare, a good school to send her kid to etc. are presumably also things she wants. And it's quite possible that a PI salary plus a "broke" undocumented guy's salary doesn't cover those things in the Bay Area.

I'll put in my two cents about this. I currently live in a rather low income immigrant neighborhood, but in a gated community so it's super safe. We get by ok, and I am currently paying $800/month for daycare, so without that cost, we'd feel rich! When I graduate, my husband could organize his schedule so that he could work while the kid is in school and then pick her up, so no daycare would need to be paid for. I figure that with the raise is get, and with loan payments, I'd still be in slightly better shape now. Plus, my husband should have his green card by the end of the year, so he'd be making more too. I'm mostly worried about my kid's schooling, but I think she should get pretty good scholarships thanks to her dad being an indigenous Guatemalan immigrant with a sixth grade education. Honestly, even if our combined income was only about 1000 more than it is now, that would be great for me.

It's worth a lot more than two cents considering it's your life. And again, you sound like an adult who has real responsibilities who is actually living life and does not consider a more modest income as the abject horror that your typical K-JD does. In terms of your daughter's schooling, that's a pickle that obviously correlates strongly with the median income of the neighborhood where you live. If you're in a place where your default options are bad, then it will definitely be on you to hustle and scramble, scratch claw and fight to get your kid into the best educational situation possible. It can be done, but you're going to have to work really hard for it.

You are hearing from folks what typically happens, but you've already shown yourself to be atypical in a number of ways. First, you're married at 24. Second, you married a "broke" (how insulting is that?) undocumented immigrant. Third, you are doing work you care about. You clearly are guided by your own sense of what path to take and I encourage you to stay on it and I suspect this is hardly the first time you've heard the pushback from the conventional wisdom. You seem to have done alright for yourself so far and I really hope things continue to work out for you.

[Unfathomableruckus]

I don't really feel like it's a particular egregious intrusion to say "If only one option maximizes your family's security/opportunities/overall well-being, you should at least consider that option."

Which is moot regardless, because those things can't be disregarded in favor of what OP "wants" to do, since safe streets for her family to walk, adequate daycare, a good school to send her kid to etc. are presumably also things she wants. And it's quite possible that a PI salary plus a "broke" undocumented guy's salary doesn't cover those things in the Bay Area.

I'll put in my two cents about this. I currently live in a rather low income immigrant neighborhood, but in a gated community so it's super safe. We get by ok, and I am currently paying $800/month for daycare, so without that cost, we'd feel rich! When I graduate, my husband could organize his schedule so that he could work while the kid is in school and then pick her up, so no daycare would need to be paid for. I figure that with the raise is get, and with loan payments, I'd still be in slightly better shape now. Plus, my husband should have his green card by the end of the year, so he'd be making more too. I'm mostly worried about my kid's schooling, but I think she should get pretty good scholarships thanks to her dad being an indigenous Guatemalan immigrant with a sixth grade education. Honestly, even if our combined income was only about 1000 more than it is now, that would be great for me.

It's worth a lot more than two cents considering it's your life. And again, you sound like an adult who has real responsibilities who is actually living life and does not consider a more modest income as the abject horror that your typical K-JD does. In terms of your daughter's schooling, that's a pickle that obviously correlates strongly with the median income of the neighborhood where you live. If you're in a place where your default options are bad, then it will definitely be on you to hustle and scramble, scratch claw and fight to get your kid into the best educational situation possible. It can be done, but you're going to have to work really hard for it.

You are hearing from folks what typically happens, but you've already shown yourself to be atypical in a number of ways. First, you're married at 24. Second, you married a "broke" (how insulting is that?) undocumented immigrant. Third, you are doing work you care about. You clearly are guided by your own sense of what path to take and I encourage you to stay on it and I suspect this is hardly the first time you've heard the pushback from the conventional wisdom. You seem to have done alright for yourself so far and I really hope things continue to work out for you.

Thanks. I'm not actually too worried about the K-12 aspect of my daughter's education. I know it's important, but I have access to some great resources. I was talking about college. I will work hard to get her into charter schools though. There's some really cool stuff happening in my community in that respect as a reaction to the awful public school system. She'll also get a lot of the necessary cultural capital from me, I think.

I am sorry to have insulted my husband out of context. Let it be known that I found out quite serendipitously on the evening after taking the LSAT that this man had been cheating on me consistently for two years with sex workers. (Including while I was breastfeeding our daughter) Actually, TLS has been a godsend for me as far as taking my mind off of that and keeping it on my plans for the future. I am with him still for logistical reasons mostly, and because he's a good dad.

Thanks for all the great insight. I feel very lucky to have gotten all of these perspectives... and kind of like I owe you guys money. If any of you are ever in the Bay, I'll buy you a beer.

[fliptrip]

^^^^^^

Well, this changes the calculus. And I'm sorry, I assumed that the "broke" comment about your husband came from a TLSer, not you, so I wasn't insinuating that you were insulting your husband. I guess you don't need me to tell you that cheating with the sex workers is not the best way to conduct yourself in a marriage. I don't think I'm alone in saying that I logistically support giving that dude his walking papers. But, obviously that's your life and your business.

And no, I think we need to buy you a beer or two or three.

[PeanutsNJam]

OP I'm sorry to hear about your husband cheating on you. Subjectively, I like you and wish you success. However, objectively, I really don't think going to law school in your case is a good idea. There are just too many obstacles. You plan to be working still, and Berkeley is a 2 hour commute? You're going to be making this commute every single day for 1L. How is that on gas, much less your mental health and endurance? Law school takes time. 1L is not as time consuming but is mentally taxing; 2L is very time consuming. Put that on top of having to care for a child, and working 10 hrs/week, along with whatever else you have to deal with, it's just too much. It can be done, but is it worth risking $300k debt to find out whether you can pull it off or not?

Since you exclusively want to do PI work that will not pay well at all, I don't think you should go anywhere without a full scholarship, or something close to that, and I don't think you should go to Hastings under any circumstances whatsoever.

You're going to have to make some concessions at this point because you've set parameters for an impossible choice. You're going to either have to relocate, retake, not go to law school, or be willing to take a biglaw/midlaw/government job post graduation.

I'm going to refrain from giving any personal life advice because that's not my place, and other should do the same.