Michigan vs UCLA vs Cornell vs UVA Forum

[Emperor of Ice-Cream]

True. I don't know how bad things were before I got there (c/o 2016), but there's almost no anxiety about employment now.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

M does well in NYC, is better than DVCP for Chicago and CA, and is better than DCP for PI/Gov. This isn't complicated, but it's something NYC BL-focused 0Ls really have trouble with.

It's hard for me to imagine what PI/Gov jobs Michigan students have a greater chance of landing in comparison to their DCP cohort. Can you fill us in?

Doesn't Michigan have a better loan repayment assistance program than the others? (It's tied to income, not non profit jobs only?) I think the other schools only help with repayment if they are certain types of jobs. That's what I recall when I was looking at schools back in the day.

A lot of PI jobs at least are connections based hiring - so the more people in PI from your school, the better the network I would assume. My spouse does hiring for a large non profit in NYC and I can tell you that schools aren't that important. They focus on languages, your experience, and they do look at grades. If you aren't bilingual, you can forget working in most non profit agencies in NYC.

Also I work in NYC biglaw, I can tell you that hiring at my firm is something like YH > CN > other T-14s. I'm not even sure my firm likes Chicago that much...maybe that's different at other firms.

[Emperor of Ice-Cream]

I don't think an individual PI-focused student necessarily has a better chance of finding her dream job at M over D or C. I just know that P/C strain out such applicants while M seeks them out, so there's more support at M. If M's LRAP is better, then that figures into it. It's also likely that public schools like UVA, Berk, Mich attract students who want to work in government.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I don't think an individual PI-focused student necessarily has a better chance of finding her dream job at M over D or C. I just know that P/C strain out such applicants while M seeks them out, so there's more support at M. If M's LRAP is better, then that figures into it. It's also likely that public schools like UVA, Berk, Mich attract students who want to work in government.

I wish I went into government.

Biglaw blows and the money is garbage for the amount of hours you pull/being on call 24/7.

Now though, fed gov at least is almost impossible to get without connections. Something like 1-3000 applications for one spot on USAJobs....I'm seriously jealous of my friends who missed the biglaw boat - they ended up with way cooler jobs than biglaw with reasonable pay.

Fuck this profession.

[fliptrip]

I want to say I find this thread damn interesting. I definitely think it's important to realize that we won't have much objective data about how UM's placement power has been effected by the changes they undertook until we get the employment data 9 months after the Emperor and his class graduate, which will be March of next year.

The whole rankings thing just isn't that important. If you derive some psychic benefit from being able to tell someone you meet 10 years from now that you went to the #12 school while they went to the 15th school, then that's your business. But, I do think it's really important to be able to determine whether or not you could be making a decision that is going to f*ck your life up big time. So, the question I'd make sure I had an answer to would be "what's the chance this choice is going to f*ck me up long-term?"

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I want to say I find this thread damn interesting. I definitely think it's important to realize that we won't have much objective data about how UM's placement power has been effected by the changes they undertook until we get the employment data 9 months after the Emperor and his class graduate, which will be March of next year.

The whole rankings thing just isn't that important. If you derive some psychic benefit from being able to tell someone you meet 10 years from now that you went to the #12 school while they went to the 15th school, then that's your business. But, I do think it's really important to be able to determine whether or not you could be making a decision that is going to f*ck your life up big time. So, the question I'd make sure I had an answer to would be "what's the chance this choice is going to f*ck me up long-term?"

By going to law school and taking out debt you're likely fucking up your life long term...so what's your point?

Me and my biglaw coworkers spend a bunch of time at work talking about other jobs to get into....do you want to be like us? And we're likely less fucked than most of you - many of us don't have debt and/or come from rich families. I think you guys underestimate how few people in biglaw are as fucked as most TLSers seem to be, at least financially.

Anyway, just remember, don't take out large debt - or else you are fucked for life. HTH.

[fliptrip]

My point is exactly what you said. Don't borrow a ton of money, especially based on what some magazine says, to:

1. In the best case, enter a job that a lot of people who have gone before you simply loathe.
2. In the worst case, waste three years of your life and not have a job that gives you any shot of repaying your loans.

[180kickflip]

Well at the very least we have to conclude that the struggle at UM was real because they made substantive structural changes to address them. They reduced class size and adjusted their grading policies.

This is spot on, and I'm not sure if some of the Michigan rashers are aware of/accounting for this. I don't see why it matters if Michigan was near Gtown in outcomes for 5 years or whatever when they have a huge/national alumni base due to decades of being T10 and higher, and now (after substantive changes) may no longer have the characteristics that led to their decline.

Plus, I can't say since the Op is deleted, but if it said 125k debt at graduation, it seems like we're adding a lot of assumptions (debt financed, not extremely frugal, no summer employment, etc.) to push that aside and say it's 170+. Yes, those assumptions could be the way things usually turn out (and it's important to keep that in mind), but, I think if 150k is a conservative estimate, and a 2L SA combined with a 1L low pay job can lop off 20k+, then 125k at graduation seems pretty possible.

[Toodle-loo]

I know the debt aversion on TLS can seem really dogmatic, but it is really backed up by the numbers. At Mich, the most recent objective and publicly available reports say that you have a 54% chance of landing biglaw. Those are not great odds, but let's just assume you get it. You'll be making $160k, but you'll be carrying not $125k in debt, but rather $168k in debt per the Georgetown COA calculator.

Just to be clear: 54% of people going into BigLaw ≠ 54% chance of getting BigLaw. There is some self-selection going on. Michigan has a number of people who have the qualifications for BigLaw but opt for government, clerkships, or public interest employment instead.

Otherwise, your points on the debt load hit the nail on the head. Many underestimate the significance of the burden.

I'm very glad that someone has pointed this out. It's so frustrating to watch this assumption be made over and over again, as it's just not statistically or LOGICALLY sound. I, for one, have been frustrated that the statistics required by the ABA aren't more accurate - how many got biglaw and bigfed out of how many that actually ATTEMPTED either one of those things? < This is the piece of info most prospective students actually want to know, and conflating 50% of students getting Biglaw with 50% of students who TRY for biglaw getting biglaw is just ridiculous.

[fliptrip]

Does anyone know if schools routinely publicize the % of students who participate in OCI for 2L SA positions? That would be a great proxy for interest in BigLaw, no?

[krads153]

Does anyone know if schools routinely publicize the % of students who participate in OCI for 2L SA positions? That would be a great proxy for interest in BigLaw, no?

No, they don't publish.

That said, coming from someone who is in biglaw, in general, federal government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biglaw. They are also statistically much harder to get these days.

[Biglaw1990]

.

[Toodle-loo]

Does anyone know if schools routinely publicize the % of students who participate in OCI for 2L SA positions? That would be a great proxy for interest in BigLaw, no?

No, they don't publish.

That said, coming from someone who is in biglaw, in general, federal government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biglaw. They are also statistically much harder to get these days.

I've been struggling with this reality. My goal is fedgov, not biglaw, and as such, I've been unsure as to whether the extra debt is worth it - the answer, as far as I can tell, is probably yes, especially with PSLF, but....

So, for OP, who isn't necessarily still around, a Sports law position would be considered biglaw? and thus T14 necessary?

[krads153]

Does anyone know if schools routinely publicize the % of students who participate in OCI for 2L SA positions? That would be a great proxy for interest in BigLaw, no?

No, they don't publish.

That said, coming from someone who is in biglaw, in general, federal government >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biglaw. They are also statistically much harder to get these days.

I've been struggling with this reality. My goal is fedgov, not biglaw, and as such, I've been unsure as to whether the extra debt is worth it - the answer, as far as I can tell, is probably yes, especially with PSLF, but....

So, for OP, who isn't necessarily still around, a Sports law position would be considered biglaw? and thus T14 necessary?

If your goal if fed gov, there are a lot more factors besides school that matter and minute differences in ranking don't really matter...so no, I'd say the extra debt isn't worth it.

It's tough to land a fed gov job these days, a lot of it has to do with connections too. So if you really want a fed gov job, I'd also summer with a government agency and try to get into the honors program - once you get locked out during law school, it's going to be a lot harder to compete with the people on USAjobs. I heard somewhere like they get a couple thousand applications for one job these days via USAjobs....Minute differences in rankings (i don't know what rank schools you're looking at but if they are similarly ranked, go for the cheaper one) don't really matter for fed gov. Grades matter, and connections matter, and a lot of it is luck.

If you're looking at DOJ/SEC, then you have to do a federal clerkship and probably biglaw for 5 years to get it....The people from my firm who went to DOJ/SEC did not go to T14 - but they also had order of the coif grades and clerked at the district court and maybe appellate court level. I'm talking about most other agencies - you can get them straight out, but it will be a lot easier if you do a summer internship with a gov agency. Also the competition is ridiculous these days for a fed gov job (at least based on pure percentages)...

Also very, very few firms practice "sports law" (I think proskauer is one of them). I wouldn't go to law school planning on just doing sports law.

[Toodle-loo]

If your goal if fed gov, there are a lot more factors besides school that matter and minute differences in ranking don't really matter...so no, I'd say the extra debt isn't worth it.

Minute differences in rankings (i don't know what rank schools you're looking at but if they are similarly ranked, go for the cheaper one) don't really matter for fed gov. Grades matter, and connections matter, and a lot of it is luck.

If you're looking at DOJ/SEC, then you have to do a federal clerkship and probably biglaw for 5 years to get it....The people from my firm who went to DOJ/SEC did not go to T14 - but they also had order of the coif grades and clerked at the district court and maybe appellate court level. I'm talking about most other agencies - you can get them straight out, but it will be a lot easier if you do a summer internship with a gov agency. Also the competition is ridiculous these days for a fed gov job (at least based on pure percentages)...

Also very, very few firms practice "sports law" (I think proskauer is one of them). I wouldn't go to law school planning on just doing sports law.

I guess it depends on how you're defining "minute" differences in ranking - in my case, its' T10 vs T40 with a few in the middle falling where you'd think they would in terms of scholarships.

I've actually known a surprising amount of people who wanted to go into "sports law"...and "sports" marketing, and "sports" therapy, and "sports" management ... I get the idea that people don't fully grasp how limited those markets can really be. Although, I guess it really depends on location, connections, and potentially experience.

[krads153]

If your goal if fed gov, there are a lot more factors besides school that matter and minute differences in ranking don't really matter...so no, I'd say the extra debt isn't worth it.

Minute differences in rankings (i don't know what rank schools you're looking at but if they are similarly ranked, go for the cheaper one) don't really matter for fed gov. Grades matter, and connections matter, and a lot of it is luck.

If you're looking at DOJ/SEC, then you have to do a federal clerkship and probably biglaw for 5 years to get it....The people from my firm who went to DOJ/SEC did not go to T14 - but they also had order of the coif grades and clerked at the district court and maybe appellate court level. I'm talking about most other agencies - you can get them straight out, but it will be a lot easier if you do a summer internship with a gov agency. Also the competition is ridiculous these days for a fed gov job (at least based on pure percentages)...

Also very, very few firms practice "sports law" (I think proskauer is one of them). I wouldn't go to law school planning on just doing sports law.

I guess it depends on how you're defining "minute" differences in ranking - in my case, its' T10 vs T40 with a few in the middle falling where you'd think they would in terms of scholarships.

I've actually known a surprising amount of people who wanted to go into "sports law"...and "sports" marketing, and "sports" therapy, and "sports" management ... I get the idea that people don't fully grasp how limited those markets can really be. Although, I guess it really depends on location, connections, and potentially experience.

Yeah, I guess it depends on how much scholarship money you get and what the exact rankings are. That's a tough one, but I have some friends in fed gov and they say they automatically filter out TTTs at some agencies. I don't think a top 40 would be filtered out though. Also I know people who went to low ranked schools who are at the DOJ/SEC (given they all had clerkships).

Not just limited, but "sports law" isn't as glamorous as people think - you guys aren't going to be sports agents. You will still be dealing with paperwork, etc. If you want to do "sports" management, etc. don't go to law school....

[Aeon]

I know the debt aversion on TLS can seem really dogmatic, but it is really backed up by the numbers. At Mich, the most recent objective and publicly available reports say that you have a 54% chance of landing biglaw. Those are not great odds, but let's just assume you get it. You'll be making $160k, but you'll be carrying not $125k in debt, but rather $168k in debt per the Georgetown COA calculator.

Just to be clear: 54% of people going into BigLaw ≠ 54% chance of getting BigLaw. There is some self-selection going on. Michigan has a number of people who have the qualifications for BigLaw but opt for government, clerkships, or public interest employment instead.

Otherwise, your points on the debt load hit the nail on the head. Many underestimate the significance of the burden.

I'm very glad that someone has pointed this out. It's so frustrating to watch this assumption be made over and over again, as it's just not statistically or LOGICALLY sound. I, for one, have been frustrated that the statistics required by the ABA aren't more accurate - how many got biglaw and bigfed out of how many that actually ATTEMPTED either one of those things? < This is the piece of info most prospective students actually want to know, and conflating 50% of students getting Biglaw with 50% of students who TRY for biglaw getting biglaw is just ridiculous.

While we don't have the actual figures of how many people actually want Biglaw from Michigan, it's safe to say that their placement power is inferior to the majority of the T14 (minus Georgetown).

How can you conclude that without knowing the number of people aiming for BigLaw? Placement power is defined in percentages, not absolute numbers.

[Emperor of Ice-Cream]

While we don't have the actual figures of how many people actually want Biglaw from Michigan, it's safe to say that their placement power is inferior to the majority of the T14 (minus Georgetown).

*says we don't have actual figures
*proceeds to draw actual conclusions

[fliptrip]

Uh egregious unjustified disparagement!

[GFox345]

90k total isn't enough. Even if we throw out the sports agent aspiration and just change that to "generic biglaw", it's still way too much debt for a non-trivial chance at a bad outcome.

This is absolutely absurd. According to the most recent T-14 rankings on this cite, about 7% of the class at Michigan receives a scholarship of half tuition or greater (90k total surely fits into this category). Do you really mean to suggest that going to a top 10 school is not worth it for over 90% of the class? Your point that a bad outcome is possible is certainly true, but if Michigan with 2/3 tuition scholarship is not worth it, then what is?

Surely, if this is too risky of a proposition, how could you ever suggest that someone pay sticker even at HYS (which is acknowledged as one of the best outcomes possible for an applicant on TLS)? A bad outcome is always possible, and depending on your definition of non-trivial, the decision to attend any law school runs the student a non-trivial risk of a bad outcome.

OP, I would strongly urge you to ignore this advice. It is totally off-base. TLS is a great resource when it comes to dissuading people from attending a TTT school without a massive scholarship, but please, please do not let neurotic, oblivious, and pathologically debt-averse people on this forum talk you out of a fantastic outcome. Not all risks are created equal, but there really is truth in the saying "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." Going to law school is a risk - period. And Michigan with a 2/3 scholarship is a risk worth taking.

Michigan is NOT a T10 and the employment prospects at Mich are nearly as bad as Georgetown. Please don't buy into the notion that M and V are peer schools because they aren't. I'm not advising you to leave money on the table and pay sticker, but you need to understand that your chance of landing Biglaw is not the same. I would go to Cornell if you want NYC Biglaw, and UVA if you want to go to a different market, since UVA will provide you with more mobility. Best of luck!

You're right. Michigan isn't a T10. It's a T8! XD

[Biglaw1990]

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[Tls2016]

Does anyone know if schools routinely publicize the % of students who participate in OCI for 2L SA positions? That would be a great proxy for interest in BigLaw, no?

You may already know this but I just found it the other day looking at Michigans stats. Maybe this will help OP.

LST does show report of "job source" if the school discloses it. Michigan shows 35.1% of employed students got jobs through OCI - that includes a handful of judicial clerks and 128 people in firms greater than 50 attorneys.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... jobs/2014/

UCLA has 24.4 %
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ucla/jobs/2014/

Cornell has 63.9% from OCI but doesn't break down size of employer.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... jobs/2014/

UVA declined to submit job source data:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/uva/jobs/2014/

Note: I looked at Georgetown for comparison and the data is incorrect.
I don't think schools will ever publicly disclose the number of students who strike out at OCI. It's not helpful to their students.