Lay prestige Forum

[fliptrip]

gotta disagree with you. I know the west coast extremely well. Stanford is king. The only schools that would be thought of as more prestigious would be HLS and HMS (over SLS and SMS, respectively), and even then the difference is minor.

Okay, I guess since you know the west coast extremely well, I'll go ahead and change my opinion...lol

I needed to give myself some clout, since I was dealing with someone who has "lived everywhere" and thus, clearly knew what he was talking about

Ooooh you got me. *Hands up in surrender*

[juzam_djinn]

gotta disagree with you. I know the west coast extremely well. Stanford is king. The only schools that would be thought of as more prestigious would be HLS and HMS (over SLS and SMS, respectively), and even then the difference is minor.

Okay, I guess since you know the west coast extremely well, I'll go ahead and change my opinion...lol

Stanford is more prestigious than Harvard on the west coast. Full stop. And I think that's justified, considering it now has the best b-school, is on par with Harvard in medicine and law (though Stanford is much harder (more desirable?) to get into for both degrees), and blows Harvard out of the water in most graduate degrees in the science/engineering fields. I realize lay people aren't aware of these rankings and field-specific reputations, but they do trickle down over time. It's not hard to imagine Stanford surpassing Harvard in national reputation in the next fifty years.

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field. Internationally it is seen as on par with Harvard and Stanford, and even domestically I'd say it's up there reputation-wise with the lower-tier Ivies.

SLS is slightly harder than HLS to get into. SMS isn't harder to get into than HMS though. MGH (HMS's teaching hospital) is the most prestigious medical institution in the world. SMS traditionally has always been great but never amongst the top med schools like HMS, UCSF

[juzam_djinn]

gotta disagree with you. I know the west coast extremely well. Stanford is king. The only schools that would be thought of as more prestigious would be HLS and HMS (over SLS and SMS, respectively), and even then the difference is minor.

Okay, I guess since you know the west coast extremely well, I'll go ahead and change my opinion...lol

I needed to give myself some clout, since I was dealing with someone who has "lived everywhere" and thus, clearly knew what he was talking about

Ooooh you got me. *Hands up in surrender*

nice, that was my plan all along

[SLS_AMG]

gotta disagree with you. I know the west coast extremely well. Stanford is king. The only schools that would be thought of as more prestigious would be HLS and HMS (over SLS and SMS, respectively), and even then the difference is minor.

Okay, I guess since you know the west coast extremely well, I'll go ahead and change my opinion...lol

Stanford is more prestigious than Harvard on the west coast. Full stop. And I think that's justified, considering it now has the best b-school, is on par with Harvard in medicine and law (though Stanford is much harder (more desirable?) to get into for both degrees), and blows Harvard out of the water in most graduate degrees in the science/engineering fields. I realize lay people aren't aware of these rankings and field-specific reputations, but they do trickle down over time. It's not hard to imagine Stanford surpassing Harvard in national reputation in the next fifty years.

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field. Internationally it is seen as on par with Harvard and Stanford, and even domestically I'd say it's up there reputation-wise with the lower-tier Ivies.

SLS is slightly harder than HLS to get into. SMS isn't harder to get into than HMS though. MGH (HMS's teaching hospital) is the most prestigious medical institution in the world. SMS traditionally has always been great but never amongst the top med schools like HMS, UCSF

Pretty much every Stanford school has a lower acceptance rate than the comparable Harvard school, including, for the very first time just a couple of years ago, the undergrad.

That should actually be even more impressive considering the non-neglible amount of students with 0 chance of admission that throw out Harvard applications just for the hell of it and because it's Harvard.

[juzam_djinn]

gotta disagree with you. I know the west coast extremely well. Stanford is king. The only schools that would be thought of as more prestigious would be HLS and HMS (over SLS and SMS, respectively), and even then the difference is minor.

Okay, I guess since you know the west coast extremely well, I'll go ahead and change my opinion...lol

Stanford is more prestigious than Harvard on the west coast. Full stop. And I think that's justified, considering it now has the best b-school, is on par with Harvard in medicine and law (though Stanford is much harder (more desirable?) to get into for both degrees), and blows Harvard out of the water in most graduate degrees in the science/engineering fields. I realize lay people aren't aware of these rankings and field-specific reputations, but they do trickle down over time. It's not hard to imagine Stanford surpassing Harvard in national reputation in the next fifty years.

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field. Internationally it is seen as on par with Harvard and Stanford, and even domestically I'd say it's up there reputation-wise with the lower-tier Ivies.

SLS is slightly harder than HLS to get into. SMS isn't harder to get into than HMS though. MGH (HMS's teaching hospital) is the most prestigious medical institution in the world. SMS traditionally has always been great but never amongst the top med schools like HMS, UCSF

Pretty much every Stanford school has a lower acceptance rate than the comparable Harvard school, including, for the very first time just a couple of years ago, the undergrad.

That should actually be even more impressive considering the non-neglible amount of students with 0 chance of admission that throw out Harvard applications just for the hell of it and because it's Harvard.

Just so we're clear, I fully agree S is more prestigious than H. In my original post, I was talking about lay prestige (given the thread title). I still stand by my opinion that HLS is still a bit more lay prestigious than SLS on the west coast, but even then I think the diff. is minuscule and I wouldn't be surprised if some poll showed me I was wrong. In terms of "deserved" prestige, there's no doubt S>H. The overall quality of S is way better. That being said, SMS prestige < HMS prestige (by a small margin). You can't just go off of admission rate. Dig around some med school forums or talk to some med student/doctor friends and they will repeat what I've said. Unless, of course, you're only talking to people in Norcal...

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field. Internationally it is seen as on par with Harvard and Stanford, and even domestically I'd say it's up there reputation-wise with the lower-tier Ivies.

I'm from California originally, so I may have regional bias, but I have to agree with this. Berkeley is seen as better than the lower tier Ivies in California/Western states tbh, but I think in general its rep is on the same par as lower tier Ivies at least domestically. Internationally, it may have a better rep than a lot of the Ivies given its grad programs.

From my point of view, (coming from a science/engineering background plus West Coast), the schools with the least lay prestige are probably UVA and NYU. Most West Coasters probably think Penn is Penn State, as well. The people who are in the know obviously know Penn is a good school, but the average Joe probably gets them confused. I knew about Michigan because of its top ranked med school/engineering programs. It varies by region and field - some of the T-14 just have very mediocre science/med/engineering programs so I didn't really know about them beforehand.

I also knew a ton of people who chose Stanford over Harvard. The majority of West Coasters who got into both chose Stanford over Harvard. I think Harvard still has more "lay recognition" in the Western states, but Stanford is at least seen on the level same as Harvard.

[4thand9]

Missing Princeton Law and Brown University Law Center.

I love it when pre-law kids say, "Yeah I'm looking at all the Ivy League schools for law school, especially Harvard, Yale, and Princeton."

[Lawcat11]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field. Internationally it is seen as on par with Harvard and Stanford, and even domestically I'd say it's up there reputation-wise with the lower-tier Ivies.

I'm from California originally, so I may have regional bias, but I have to agree with this. Berkeley is seen as better than the lower tier Ivies in California/Western states tbh, but I think in general its rep is on the same par as lower tier Ivies at least domestically. Internationally, it may have a better rep than a lot of the Ivies given its grad programs.

From my point of view, (coming from a science/engineering background plus West Coast), the schools with the least lay prestige are probably UVA and NYU. Most West Coasters probably think Penn is Penn State, as well. I knew about Michigan because of its top ranked med school/engineering programs.

This is really true- I am from the Bay Area and know people who turned down Ivies for Berkeley for undergrad without blinking an eye. Maybe it's different other places on the west coast, but back home it's Stanford> Berkeley>> Ivies. There was one girl in my high school who went to Davis instead of Brown or Northwestern, and nobody really questioned that either. I think regional bias is probably stronger in Norcal than any other region in the country, honestly.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field. Internationally it is seen as on par with Harvard and Stanford, and even domestically I'd say it's up there reputation-wise with the lower-tier Ivies.

I'm from California originally, so I may have regional bias, but I have to agree with this. Berkeley is seen as better than the lower tier Ivies in California/Western states tbh, but I think in general its rep is on the same par as lower tier Ivies at least domestically. Internationally, it may have a better rep than a lot of the Ivies given its grad programs.

From my point of view, (coming from a science/engineering background plus West Coast), the schools with the least lay prestige are probably UVA and NYU. Most West Coasters probably think Penn is Penn State, as well. I knew about Michigan because of its top ranked med school/engineering programs.

This is really true- I am from the Bay Area and know people who turned down Ivies for Berkeley for undergrad without blinking an eye. Maybe it's different other places on the west coast, but back home it's Stanford> Berkeley>> Ivies. There was one girl in my high school who went to Davis instead of Brown or Northwestern, and nobody really questioned that either. I think regional bias is probably stronger in Norcal than any other region in the country, honestly.

yeah, I'm from SF Bay Area originally too. Most people didn't bother applying to the Ivies, or if they did, they only applied to HYP.

I knew people who turned down the Ivies for UCLA/USC as well (or just didn't bother applying even with good stats). I've also lived in other Western states (think Washington, Oregon, etc.) and the consensus is similar to what I experienced in California.

When someone I knew went to Brown, I honestly thought "why would she do that?" Whereas to an East Coaster that's not unusual. Every region has its biases.

[Nebby]

It's a mix of regional, rural/urban and class-based. I'm from a poor, rural Kansas town and absolutely no one knows what Columbia Law School is and if you said Princeton Law they'd think it was legit.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I grew up outside Boston and the only Berkeley people knew was Berklee School of Music. Berkeley and Michigan were both considered random state schools on a par with any other ordinary state school. Like maybe U of Missouri or U of Nevada.

Not that any of this remotely matters.

[kartelite]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

[Iam3hunna]

It's a mix of regional, rural/urban and class-based. I'm from a poor, rural Kansas town and absolutely no one knows what Columbia Law School is and if you said Princeton Law they'd think it was legit.

This. No one knows what the hell I am talking about with regards to law schools. The only one people seem to know is Haaaaaaaaavard. Oh and Stanford/Berkeley as well but that's because I'm from Northern California.

PS: No Law School has more Lay Prestige than Cooley Law though.

[Iam3hunna]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

Puhleaaaaaaase. Berzzzerk all day.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

Puhleaaaaaaase. Berzzzerk all day.

I think Berkeley and UVA were tied for #1 a number of years ago (maybe even 10 years ago) and they aren't tied anymore.

Anyway, if you want to do science/engineering, you'd be an idiot to choose a school like UVA...I frankly don't even get why people who choose to major in English bother going to college.

[SLS_AMG]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

I'll send you a "Happy 60th" birthday card if you can just provide me with an address.

ETA: Just looked it up, and UC Berkeley has been #1 for 18 straight years. Maybe UVA randomly tied it one year a decade ago--much like UT tied GULC a few years ago--but everyone knows it's Berkeley and everyone else for public schools.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

I'll send you a "Happy 60th" birthday card if you can just provide me with an address.

lol when was Virginia Tech the number one public in the country? (echoing my dad, who thought I was applying to Virginia Tech for law school back in the day)

[Tls2016]

The problem with caring about lay prestige is that it never ends. There is always the next prestige thing to chase so you can validate yourself.

It goes from law school, to job, to apartment, to spouse and spouses credentials and did you get in the NYT, to weekend house, to country club, to where your kids go to school, and it just never ends.

And within that there are subgroups: like do you have a cabana at your country club, if so, where is it? Or like which private school do your kids attend, within the elite private schools of NYC there are clear tiers of elitism.

Some people can live for that chase and satisfaction. NYC is powered by people looking for a better job, better apartment, better spouse. But it's not just here. My uncle is a judge in drug court in some flyover state and feels like he is amazing because he has some Mercedes sports car and a retirement house on an island in South Carolina. It feeds his ego and is pretty much all of his identity. Most everyone I know in NYC thinks of his job as shit law.

It honestly doesn't ever end.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

The problem with caring about lay prestige is that it never ends. There is always the next prestige thing to chase so you can validate yourself.

It goes from law school, to job, to apartment, to spouse and spouses credentials and did you get in the NYT, to weekend house, to country club, to where your kids go to school, and it just never ends.

And within that there are subgroups: like do you have a cabana at your country club, if so, where is it? Or like which private school do your kids attend, within the elite private schools of NYC there are clear tiers of elitism.

Some people can live for that chase and satisfaction. NYC is powered by people looking for a better job, better apartment, better spouse. But it's not just here. My uncle is a judge in drug court in some flyover state and feels like he is amazing because he has some Mercedes sports car and a retirement house on an island in South Carolina. It feeds his ego and is pretty much all of his identity. Most everyone I know in NYC thinks of his job as shit law.

It honestly doesn't ever end.

That's true, and kind of sad. I've noticed people in NYC are more status obsessed than those in other places I've lived, which is odd considering a lot of them aren't even rich.

The only thing I truly care about is money. Don't really give a shit about pedigree or status or pleasing/showing off to others. I just want enough money to where I don't have to work for a living anymore and I have unlimited free time to do what I want. And in my experience, pedigree has very little to do with that.

[kartelite]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

I'll send you a "Happy 60th" birthday card if you can just provide me with an address.

ETA: Just looked it up, and UC Berkeley has been #1 for 18 straight years. Maybe UVA randomly tied it one year a decade ago--much like UT tied GULC a few years ago--but everyone knows it's Berkeley and everyone else for public schools.

UVA was #1 outright for a few years in the mid-late 90s (my high school days), and was at least tied post-2000. For obvious reasons I haven't really followed the rankings since then (nor do I have much knowledge of what they were prior). Maybe if your bubble is NorCal it's "Berkeley and everyone else" - sounds like the arrogant crap someone from there would say...but try going to DC and insinuating that UVA is in the bottom tier of public schools.

[TFALAWL]

It's not an inherently dumb thread as the stated purpose is not for finding out future legal employment success.

The stated purpose is dumb.

The unstated purpose (getting laid at a bar) is not dumb haha. To that end, I have had 0 lay prestige UVA -- people have even asked if I go to an online school. JBagel, you know my stance on this issue lol

[krads153]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

I'll send you a "Happy 60th" birthday card if you can just provide me with an address.

ETA: Just looked it up, and UC Berkeley has been #1 for 18 straight years. Maybe UVA randomly tied it one year a decade ago--much like UT tied GULC a few years ago--but everyone knows it's Berkeley and everyone else for public schools.

UVA was #1 outright for a few years in the mid-late 90s (my high school days), and was at least tied post-2000. For obvious reasons I haven't really followed the rankings since then (nor do I have much knowledge of what they were prior). Maybe if your bubble is NorCal it's "Berkeley and everyone else" - sounds like the arrogant crap someone from there would say...but try going to DC and insinuating that UVA is in the bottom tier of public schools.

I don't think he was saying that it's in the bottom tier of public schools...Berkeley is just clearly above the rest. My personal impression is that looking at the schools as a whole, it's something like Berkeley > UCLA/Michigan/UVA > the rest, although for grad programs generally, UCLA/Michigan probably have stronger grad programs than UVA.

[Hikikomorist]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

I'll send you a "Happy 60th" birthday card if you can just provide me with an address.

ETA: Just looked it up, and UC Berkeley has been #1 for 18 straight years. Maybe UVA randomly tied it one year a decade ago--much like UT tied GULC a few years ago--but everyone knows it's Berkeley and everyone else for public schools.

UVA was #1 outright for a few years in the mid-late 90s (my high school days), and was at least tied post-2000. For obvious reasons I haven't really followed the rankings since then (nor do I have much knowledge of what they were prior). Maybe if your bubble is NorCal it's "Berkeley and everyone else" - sounds like the arrogant crap someone from there would say...but try going to DC and insinuating that UVA is in the bottom tier of public schools.

I don't think he was saying that it's in the bottom tier of public schools...Berkeley is just clearly above the rest. My personal impression is that looking at the schools as a whole, it's something like Berkeley > UCLA/Michigan/UVA > the rest, although for grad programs generally, UCLA/Michigan probably have stronger grad programs than UVA.

I don't think this is a very common view outside of CA (and maybe the West Coast generally), and I struggle to understand how they would justify such a view statistically. I mean, I've heard the claims about earning potential for the subset of Berkeley grads with certain majors, but I've never seen a credible, comprehensive comparison with other schools--as opposed to what's available for comparing admissions selectivity/student body quality.

[krads153]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

I'll send you a "Happy 60th" birthday card if you can just provide me with an address.

ETA: Just looked it up, and UC Berkeley has been #1 for 18 straight years. Maybe UVA randomly tied it one year a decade ago--much like UT tied GULC a few years ago--but everyone knows it's Berkeley and everyone else for public schools.

UVA was #1 outright for a few years in the mid-late 90s (my high school days), and was at least tied post-2000. For obvious reasons I haven't really followed the rankings since then (nor do I have much knowledge of what they were prior). Maybe if your bubble is NorCal it's "Berkeley and everyone else" - sounds like the arrogant crap someone from there would say...but try going to DC and insinuating that UVA is in the bottom tier of public schools.

I don't think he was saying that it's in the bottom tier of public schools...Berkeley is just clearly above the rest. My personal impression is that looking at the schools as a whole, it's something like Berkeley > UCLA/Michigan/UVA > the rest, although for grad programs generally, UCLA/Michigan probably have stronger grad programs than UVA.

I don't think this is a very common view outside of CA (and maybe the West Coast generally), and I struggle to understand how they would justify such a view statistically. I mean, I've heard the claims about earning potential for the subset of Berkeley grads with certain majors, but I've never seen a credible, comprehensive comparison with other schools--as opposed to what's available for comparing admissions selectivity/student body quality.

I'm talking more about how like 100% of Berkeley grad programs are in the top 10 or whatever. I think Michigan/UCLA also have really high percentages for grad programs in the top 15. Michigan is mainly known for its med school/engineering/sciences. UCLA has really good med school/science programs too. For admissions selectivity on undergrad level, I think Berkeley is still more selective than the rest.

USNews also does a global rankings here:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gl ... ngs?page=2
- Berkeley is #3
- UCLA is #8
-Michigan is #17
- Virginia is #94...so not exactly on the same level.

I think a big part of international rankings is research/science focused though, so that's probably why UVA lags behind the others.

I don't know why people get offended by this - if you look at all grad program rankings (and frankly even undergrad rankings) Berkeley is above the others.

Schools that focus on science/engineering/med are obviously going to have higher starting salaries at both undergrad/grad levels - so of course schools that focus on basket weaving or whatever, are going to lag behind others in placement.

[kartelite]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

I'll send you a "Happy 60th" birthday card if you can just provide me with an address.

ETA: Just looked it up, and UC Berkeley has been #1 for 18 straight years. Maybe UVA randomly tied it one year a decade ago--much like UT tied GULC a few years ago--but everyone knows it's Berkeley and everyone else for public schools.

UVA was #1 outright for a few years in the mid-late 90s (my high school days), and was at least tied post-2000. For obvious reasons I haven't really followed the rankings since then (nor do I have much knowledge of what they were prior). Maybe if your bubble is NorCal it's "Berkeley and everyone else" - sounds like the arrogant crap someone from there would say...but try going to DC and insinuating that UVA is in the bottom tier of public schools.

I don't think he was saying that it's in the bottom tier of public schools...Berkeley is just clearly above the rest. My personal impression is that looking at the schools as a whole, it's something like Berkeley > UCLA/Michigan/UVA > the rest, although for grad programs generally, UCLA/Michigan probably have stronger grad programs than UVA.

I inferred that because he said there were two tiers, Berkeley and "the rest" (putting UVA in the bottom tier). I'm not disagreeing that Berkeley has generally higher-ranked graduate programs because of its research emphasis, but there was an implication that it's in a class by itself based on undergrad metrics, which I think is a bit far-fetched (nothing against community college students, but it also accepts a ton of transfers from Cali CCs that if anything would "dilute" the selctiveness). Having lived in the Bay Area for years, I guess I should have gotten used to the notion that people from the area think that it's the center of the universe...South Park even did an episode on it, so that should tell you something