Harvard vs NYU$$$ Forum

[brianiac]

You people have a sick obsession with sticker. It's completely inappropriate. You act like it's the end of the world. But news flash: it's not gonna be that hard to pay off. If you get biglaw you have it made. Your first year salary is $160000, that's the same as sticker tuition. Or if you're like me, you'll have multiple income streams. Stop pretending you know everything about finances. And stay out of ours.

[buckiguy_sucks]

.

[brianiac]

So is GW a mule or a stallion? Asking for a friend.

For politics it is one of the top schools in the country, on par with Georgetown and not far behind HYS. So stallion.

[heythatslife]

But your proverbial man on the street would not know GWU. At least Columbia was featured in Suits and HIMYM.

[brianiac]

a

[03152016]

But your proverbial man on the street would not know GWU. At least Columbia was featured in Suits and HIMYM.

The man on the street in D.C. would certainly know of GW so your metaphor doesn't make sense. Also, we're widely regarded as up and coming, a new contender on the national stage.

"I knew the university by reputation: an up-and-coming school that had become more exclusive over time, the home to many respected scholars and a student body that was nationally competitive."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/educa ... .html?_r=0

lol why even bother doctoring the quote if you're going to provide a link to it

[heythatslife]

Also from the same article: "“You can go to G.W. and essentially buy a degree.”

[03152016]

normally i'd never post a pm
but brianiac deserves it

[jbagelboy]

I think that, given your financial situation and the options presented, you should go with your gut. And I think, based on your previous posts OP, your gut is saying Harvard. Don't feel bad because debt-averse TLSers are scaring you away from monthly debt payments by pointing to employment outcomes.

YHS is a floor above CCN for a reason. YHS will give you more latitude to do with your career whatever it is you'd like to. Not saying NYU won't give you any latitude, but an HLS degree will certainly give you more. If your parents are OK with financing, there's no need to feel bad about turning down a full ride at a school with a lower reputation. I'm not dogging NYU, which would be an excellent choice. I'm merely saying that OP's financial situation does not necessitate the typical debt-averse "take sticker and you'll die" argument, so thus OP should consider the prestige, network, and reputation of HLS and NYU before deciding.

Financially, you will be fine with an HLS degree at sticker. Anyone who wishes to suggest that an HLS degree will push you into squalor or middle-class "mediocrity" can be my guest...but I think rational people know that an HLS degree will make you rich the same way an NYU degree does. Outside of the TLS bubble, it is my opinion that NYU over HLS with any financial package given your circumstances would be hard to rationalize.

Note that this is just me, a 0L, speaking for the minority here when I say that debt cannot always and should not always be the final consideration. You can be obsessed about money and maybe you'll always feel financially secure. Or you can take a risk to put yourself in a better position. Best case scenario, you control your destiny with an HLS degree. Worst case scenario, you have a degree from Harvard Law School and your loving parents will gladly incur monthly payments because they can afford to and because wisdom has told them that money cannot always be one's #1 consideration.

You're not a very good poster, you write with a lot of fluff and zero substance, you've never been to law school and you should probably stop and revisit these opinions in a few years when you realize how little it matters between these schools.

[exitoptions]

I'll admit that it's hard to quantify H's impact on a grad's life. For many the benefit will be worth over $200k in debt (particularly if it's interest free, as is OP's contemplated debt). But it's also impossible to quantify the affect that $200k in debt will have on your life over the next 10 years (particualrly the non-dischargeable kind, which I think family debt qualifies as, since you'll pay it back one way or the other at Thanksgivings to come). The debt will invade every major decision you make in your life. Want to buy a condo? Well maybe in a few years once that big law salary inches up. Want to have a baby? Try paying $3k a month to a nanny/day care on top of the $2k a month in student loans. Take clerkship? Fine, but you will almost certainly have to extend out your payment schedule. Public interest? Even if your debts are eligible for forgiveness (which OP's would not be), you still have to stay for 120 payments, meaning that your life decisions again will be controlled by your debt. Want to go to a firm after prosecuting for 5 years? Well, you better consider the huge make-wholes you'll be paying.

[lapolicia]

I'll admit that it's hard to quantify H's impact on a grad's life. For many the benefit will be worth over $200k in debt (particularly if it's interest free, as is OP's contemplated debt). But it's also impossible to quantify the affect that $200k in debt will have on your life over the next 10 years (particualrly the non-dischargeable kind, which I think family debt qualifies as, since you'll pay it back one way or the other at Thanksgivings to come). The debt will invade every major decision you make in your life. Want to buy a condo? Well maybe in a few years once that big law salary inches up. Want to have a baby? Try paying $3k a month to a nanny/day care on top of the $2k a month in student loans. Take clerkship? Fine, but you will almost certainly have to extend out your payment schedule. Public interest? Even if your debts are eligible for forgiveness (which OP's would not be), you still have to stay for 120 payments, meaning that your life decisions again will be controlled by your debt. Want to go to a firm after prosecuting for 5 years? Well, you better consider the huge make-wholes you'll be paying.

I'm just wondering...what are the outcomes (other than academia) that are open to most Harvard grads in the long run that aren't open to most NYU grads? From what I understand after several years of practice, Harvard's advantage over CCN is primarily the fact that academia is actually possible--but still very unlikely--from there, the better clerkship placement (but you still need to be top 1/3 or above, unlike Y), slightly better biglaw placement, and in the long run the excellent network in political positions in government. For someone just interested in biglaw, it doesn't seem like any of these are career defining in the long run in any way.

[03152016]

I think that, given your financial situation and the options presented, you should go with your gut. And I think, based on your previous posts OP, your gut is saying Harvard. Don't feel bad because debt-averse TLSers are scaring you away from monthly debt payments by pointing to employment outcomes.

YHS is a floor above CCN for a reason. YHS will give you more latitude to do with your career whatever it is you'd like to. Not saying NYU won't give you any latitude, but an HLS degree will certainly give you more. If your parents are OK with financing, there's no need to feel bad about turning down a full ride at a school with a lower reputation. I'm not dogging NYU, which would be an excellent choice. I'm merely saying that OP's financial situation does not necessitate the typical debt-averse "take sticker and you'll die" argument, so thus OP should consider the prestige, network, and reputation of HLS and NYU before deciding.

Financially, you will be fine with an HLS degree at sticker. Anyone who wishes to suggest that an HLS degree will push you into squalor or middle-class "mediocrity" can be my guest...but I think rational people know that an HLS degree will make you rich the same way an NYU degree does. Outside of the TLS bubble, it is my opinion that NYU over HLS with any financial package given your circumstances would be hard to rationalize.

Note that this is just me, a 0L, speaking for the minority here when I say that debt cannot always and should not always be the final consideration. You can be obsessed about money and maybe you'll always feel financially secure. Or you can take a risk to put yourself in a better position. Best case scenario, you control your destiny with an HLS degree. Worst case scenario, you have a degree from Harvard Law School and your loving parents will gladly incur monthly payments because they can afford to and because wisdom has told them that money cannot always be one's #1 consideration.

no one is questioning the notion that harvard has some advantages. that isn't the point being argued here
what's being argued here is which school is right for op's stated goals given op's stated price
he wants nyc biglaw. he'll get it whether he goes to H or N. nyu had an 88% oci success rate last year (and likely significantly higher when you factor in non-oci channels such as mass mailing, networking, and referrals). plus he can put vandy scholar on his resume. employers will know he was recruited away from hys
when you consider op's specific goals, it is very clear to me the difference is not worth $200k (which if invested, due to the magic of compounding interest, will be worth considerably more at retirement)

[exitoptions]

I'll admit that it's hard to quantify H's impact on a grad's life. For many the benefit will be worth over $200k in debt (particularly if it's interest free, as is OP's contemplated debt). But it's also impossible to quantify the affect that $200k in debt will have on your life over the next 10 years (particualrly the non-dischargeable kind, which I think family debt qualifies as, since you'll pay it back one way or the other at Thanksgivings to come). The debt will invade every major decision you make in your life. Want to buy a condo? Well maybe in a few years once that big law salary inches up. Want to have a baby? Try paying $3k a month to a nanny/day care on top of the $2k a month in student loans. Take clerkship? Fine, but you will almost certainly have to extend out your payment schedule. Public interest? Even if your debts are eligible for forgiveness (which OP's would not be), you still have to stay for 120 payments, meaning that your life decisions again will be controlled by your debt. Want to go to a firm after prosecuting for 5 years? Well, you better consider the huge make-wholes you'll be paying.

I'm just wondering...what are the outcomes (other than academia) that are open to most Harvard grads in the long run that aren't open to most NYU grads? From what I understand after several years of practice, Harvard's advantage over CCN is primarily the fact that academia is actually possible--but still very unlikely--from there, the better clerkship placement (but you still need to be top 1/3 or above, unlike Y), slightly better biglaw placement, and in the long run the excellent network in political positions in government. For someone just interested in biglaw, it doesn't seem like any of these are career defining in the long run in any way.

There are a ton of positions that you might move onto from Harvard -- like I said, there's no way to quantify the benefit of H over NYU. We don't have lifetime income statistics (that I know of), and even if we did, it's unclear how useful that information would be given the restructuring of the legal market in the last 10 years. I would imagine, however, that historically H has placed more partners at major firms (that's purely conjecture -- NYT had a recent article about a study on partnership prospects by school, but I don't think it was weighted by class size).

I think the fact that statistically H and NYU are likely to give you the same result with respect to big law at least, shows that someone would be crazy to take H sticker over NYU free. But, that's because I value the outlier outcomes (scotus clerk, bristow fellows, academia) less heavily than some.

I didn't go to H or NYU, but I have had pretty much the target outcome for people who do go to those schools (Fed clerkship in one of the big three districts and then big law). I also have substantial school debt. So I think I know essentially what the average H person feels after taking substantial debt and getting a "good" result. The fact that NYU promises the same "good" outcome as H for around the same number of students is instructive. And $200k in debt is a hell of a bubble burster. For example, on going to my firm and collecting my clerkship bonus, I immediately scheduled a payment for the after-tax bonus amount to my loan company...

[elterrible78]

normally i'd never post a pm
but brianiac deserves it

Wait...does this mean he's not a troll?

[03152016]

just wanted to point out real quick that all the people advocating that op take H at sticker itt have been 0Ls
and the people advocating NYU $$$ have been actual practicing attorneys and law students

[UnicornHunter]

You people have a sick obsession with sticker. It's completely inappropriate. You act like it's the end of the world. But news flash: it's not gonna be that hard to pay off. If you get biglaw you have it made. Your first year salary is $160000, that's the same as sticker tuition. Or if you're like me, you'll have multiple income streams. Stop pretending you know everything about finances. And stay out of ours.

Your schtick is amusing when it's in your own thread, but not in threads where people are asking for real advice.

[Eladriel]

normally i'd never post a pm
but brianiac deserves it

Apologies as a humble 0L for criticizing a megaposter (and I'm not endorsing anything Brainiac is saying) but you shouldn't post private messages as a general rule. Seems wrong. Just my 2 cents.

[rpupkin]

normally i'd never post a pm
but brianiac deserves it

Dude, come on.

Since you replaced Spicoli with the thumbs-up kid, I am sensing some regression to the old Brut.

[03152016]

normally i'd never post a pm
but brianiac deserves it

Apologies as a humble 0L for criticizing a megaposter (and I'm not endorsing anything Brainiac is saying) but you shouldn't post private messages as a general rule. Seems wrong. Just my 2 cents.

i agree with your "general rule", which is why i stated the same general rule when i said "normally i'd never post a pm"
however, brianiac made a factual assertion about a law school that was, at best, a misrepresentation. posting that he concedes the point is an effective rebuttal and educates other posters who saw his original post
because there was nothing remotely private in the pm, there is no difference between my post and a post in which i had stated, "braniac messaged me to ask me to remove the post because he didn't read the article, which is different from what he thought"
also, looming in the background of this, is the fact that brianiac is obviously a troll. i am beginning to suspect that i fell for it and did exactly what he wanted me to do

anyways, i'm open to hearing other views on this, but this kind of meta-discussion of the thread is more appropriate over pm, in its own separate thread in the lounge, in the mod thread, etc., not in someone else's on-topic, where it has limited value

[downbeat14]

.

[03152016]

normally i'd never post a pm
but brianiac deserves it

Dude, come on.

Since you replaced Spicoli with the thumbs-up kid, I am sensing some regression to the old Brut.

i don't find this post useful for the topic, as the point was already raised by another poster, and the discussion had moved back to H vs N, which is the topic of this post. since we're back on-topic, i think it would be best for us to remain on topic and not derail the thread with a board policy debate
i'd be more than happy to discuss this with you in a more appropriate venue, such as in the lounge, or over pm, or in a separate thread

also, i don't really know what "regression" you're seeing, but again, i don't think it's appropriate here. i'd be happy to discuss that topic with you as well, again in a more appropriate forum

[rpupkin]

normally i'd never post a pm
but brianiac deserves it

Dude, come on.

Since you replaced Spicoli with the thumbs-up kid, I am sensing some regression to the old Brut.

i don't find this post useful for the topic, as the point was already raised by another poster, and the discussion had moved back to H vs N, which is the topic of this post. since we're back on-topic, i think it would be best for us to remain on topic and not derail the thread with a board policy debate

Damn it, you broke my irony meter. Do you know how much these things cost?

[Phil Brooks]

This whole "if it's your parents' money then sure, pay sticker to H" is inaccurate. It is your money. If your parents are willing to pay for your law degree, then they are also probably going to pass their money on to you as an inheritance. By going to H, you're effectively reducing that inheritance by $200k + interest compounded over 20-30 years.

[03152016]

normally i'd never post a pm
but brianiac deserves it

Dude, come on.

Since you replaced Spicoli with the thumbs-up kid, I am sensing some regression to the old Brut.

i don't find this post useful for the topic, as the point was already raised by another poster, and the discussion had moved back to H vs N, which is the topic of this post. since we're back on-topic, i think it would be best for us to remain on topic and not derail the thread with a board policy debate

Damn it, you broke my irony meter. Do you know how much these things cost?

again, a gentle reminder that we are in an on-topic thread. if you have a legitimate concern, please feel free to make your own thread, or post in the lounge, or in the mod thread, or contact me via pm. tyia

This whole "if it's your parents' money then sure, pay sticker to H" is inaccurate. It is your money. If your parents are willing to pay for your law degree, then they are also probably going to pass their money on to you as an inheritance. By going to H, you're effectively reducing that inheritance by $200k + interest compounded over 20-30 years.

yeah i think this is plausible
obviously it's a better argument for families where $200k isn't a drop in the bucket (i get that sense from op, since he has to pay it back)

[wsag826]

I think that, given your financial situation and the options presented, you should go with your gut. And I think, based on your previous posts OP, your gut is saying Harvard. Don't feel bad because debt-averse TLSers are scaring you away from monthly debt payments by pointing to employment outcomes.

YHS is a floor above CCN for a reason. YHS will give you more latitude to do with your career whatever it is you'd like to. Not saying NYU won't give you any latitude, but an HLS degree will certainly give you more. If your parents are OK with financing, there's no need to feel bad about turning down a full ride at a school with a lower reputation. I'm not dogging NYU, which would be an excellent choice. I'm merely saying that OP's financial situation does not necessitate the typical debt-averse "take sticker and you'll die" argument, so thus OP should consider the prestige, network, and reputation of HLS and NYU before deciding.

Financially, you will be fine with an HLS degree at sticker. Anyone who wishes to suggest that an HLS degree will push you into squalor or middle-class "mediocrity" can be my guest...but I think rational people know that an HLS degree will make you rich the same way an NYU degree does. Outside of the TLS bubble, it is my opinion that NYU over HLS with any financial package given your circumstances would be hard to rationalize.

Note that this is just me, a 0L, speaking for the minority here when I say that debt cannot always and should not always be the final consideration. You can be obsessed about money and maybe you'll always feel financially secure. Or you can take a risk to put yourself in a better position. Best case scenario, you control your destiny with an HLS degree. Worst case scenario, you have a degree from Harvard Law School and your loving parents will gladly incur monthly payments because they can afford to and because wisdom has told them that money cannot always be one's #1 consideration.

You're not a very good poster, you write with a lot of fluff and zero substance, you've never been to law school and you should probably stop and revisit these opinions in a few years when you realize how little it matters between these schools.

I have thought every now and then that I'm not qualified to respond to these threads...until I realize the people behind the "debt doomsday" posts are mostly 0Ls, current law students, or associates fresh out of law school--none of whom are qualified to tell anyone about the uncertainty of debt payments a decade or two decades out of law school. That's when I realized that it's worth speaking up since the vast majority of TLSers run away from debt for personal reasons--and not with any substance either.

OP is free to take my comments how OP pleases and I was clear in saying that I'm a 0L. But I'm struggling to ascertain how one could rationally suggest that "little matters" between HLS and NYU. Name matters. Don't think so? It's time to look at this country's elite firms and elite jobs (federal clerkships, elite PI and government jobs, etc.) and I'm sure you won't be surprised to find that the majority come from YHS. YHS simply has an upper hand over CCN and any other T14 school and yes, it is because of their names, reputations, alumni networks, and endowments. To look at these things and suggest that they don't matter in comparison with short-term employment outcomes is far-fetched. Short-term employment outcomes do not speak to where graduates end up in a decade or two. In fact, like many other TLSers believe, short-term employment outcomes are often skewed by self-selection in the T3.

Everyone who chooses to chide me for saying that there is justification for taking HLS sticker > NYU $$ is free to do so. But please do not for a minute suggest that your posts come with any more substance than my posts when all you're basing your argument on are short-term employment outcomes and loan payments you've heard others in debt are making.