Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride) Forum

[jw316]

i knew you would do that

i even said you'd do it in an attempt to shame you, but you couldn't stop yourself

this is so sad

What's more sad is your desire to want to turn it into a dick measuring contest/argument between you and me. Yes Brut I concede everything to you. The sky is green. You're right. I'm an idiot. For the millionth time it isn't about me. I'm not considering these schools and wouldn't and I'm not trying to sell OP on attending somewhere he wasn't considering. I'm trying to clear up the fact that yes LST says this about employment statistics and yes LST is right but it's also not surprising given the caliber of the average student/graduate of the school and that OP likely doesn't fit that mold.

But still doesn't change my question.

Where should OP go to school oh wise and all knowing Brut? And does that school place better in Michigan/metro-Detroit?

Whatever I was saying about Wayne is irrelevant, I'm just still waiting to hear all of these schools that place better!

quoting this post in case you try to delete it later

Don't have time to dick measure Brut! You win! I'm out!

Re-quoting the below in case it gets lost in the dick measuring. There you go OP, someone else chiming in. This is where I bow out because for the millionth time it isn't about me, it's about you. I'm not even considering either of these schools but was just trying to help someone who is considering them, with the added view of living in Michigan and extensively looking into the state of the legal market here before deciding I would/had to go another route. I know Michigan because I had to figure out if I could stay here and accomplish my career goals—it's possible coming from UMichigan but even with that I'd have to be at least top third of my class and would still be leaving the state upon graduation. So in my own decision, doesn't really make sense for me to stay in Michigan. My PMs are open, even if it's just offering advice on where you should grab a burger in Ann Arbor or Detroit.

If you are alright working in Michigan and there are no stipulations on the full ride, the Wayne choice isn't terrible assuming you don't want big law or a prestigious position right out of law school.

Notre Dame has a lot of lay prestige but not great placement, which results in very smart students attending but not great job options outside the top of the class. I would imagine the competition is going to be comparable to a t-14, but that LR would be required to compete with median at a t-14. This is a very bad position.

It's heresy to say you can predict grades on this website, but the truth is that you can to some vague degree. You may or may not be above median at ND, but all available data suggests that with your numbers, you will do very well at Wayne. Obviously the issue is it's too risky to assume you'll be #1 or in the top 5%, but if you didn't have debt you wouldn't have to be.

Retaking is the better option, because with a 10 point improvement, you could get close to a full ride to Michigan where you'll be in a great position. There is no scenario where the difference would justify paying full cost to Notre Dame, and if there are no stips on your Wayne scholarship there is an argument it is a better option than sticker at Michigan.

Thank you. You are aptly named.

[03152016]

Don't have time to dick measure Brut! You win!

it's sad how this is all a game to you

you're too busy trying to "win" an internet argument to care about helping people, which is why decent people post in the OTs
we're trying to help people make rational decisions and weed out misinformation
we're trying to give back to this community because of how it helped us in the past
but to you it's all just a big game, trying to score points so you can "win"
ha ha! i can say whatever i want on the internet consequence free! who cares if i'm playing loose with the facts, i'll just cover my ears! who cares if i'm literally ruining lives!

you are the embodiment of the law school scam

you are a bad person

and you make me fucking sick

[03152016]

to anyone who is dropping into the thread at this point, go back and read page 2

it is a perfect demonstration of how, even in an era where law school transparency is becoming mainstream, lemmings are still trotting off to law schools that are terrible decisions for their circumstances

it's not all shady deans

[jw316]

Don't have time to dick measure Brut! You win!

it's sad how this is all a game to you

you're too busy trying to "win" an internet argument to care about helping people, which is why decent people post in the OTs
we're trying to help people make rational decisions and weed out misinformation
we're trying to give back to this community because of how it helped us in the past
but to you it's all just a big game, trying to score points so you can "win"
ha ha! i can say whatever i want on the internet consequence free! who cares if i'm playing loose with the facts, i'll just cover my ears! who cares if i'm literally ruining lives!

you are the embodiment of the law school scam

you are a bad person

and you make me fucking sick

It isn't a game but you arguing and trying to turn it into "jw316 vs Brut" is making it into one. I also don't know how you reached that conclusion when clearly I'm trying to help and you're not because you STILL have yet to provide ANY schools that place better. I don't give a fuck about Wayne.

I DO give a fuck about OP going to wherever he can best realize his career goals and not taking on unnecessary debt to do so or just to impress someone on a forum like you who's only concerned with prefftige if it means he could have gotten the EXACT SAME JOB graduating from Wayne with his full ride.

And no I'm not responding anymore because this is fucking stupid given that we still don't know OPs goals. If OP posts and says "hey guys I want biglaw!" then everything I've said is nearly moot.

Again it isn't a game but that's what you've turned it into. You win dude. You're the best poster on TLS. A masterful arguer. And a wonderful person. I'm sure you're such a joy to be around.

[03152016]

except i never said any of that

i literally said not a single one of the things you think i've said

i really, really hope you just briefly skimmed that long post i made on page 2

if you actually took the time to carefully read and understand that post, and you still think i said all of those things, then you have absolutely no business going to law school or ever representing a client

[ballcaps]

Again what other schools are those hiring in metro-Detroit going to draw from?

this is just a really bad argument. it's analytical, when the only relevant question is empirical:

what is the employment outlook for wayne grads?

the answer is poor: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wayne/2013/

[03152016]

@jw

you keep editing your posts so that by the time i hit submit i'm responding to something completely different

in your edit, you've now apparently adopted the position i was arguing on the last page, and are now attempting to convince people that i was arguing against that position

if you'll recall, i said that we don't know enough about OP to make a call on the schools, which was a huge part of my argument. i stated that we don't know whether wayne would be a good choice for op, and i stated that regionals are a good choice for many students.

your attempts to warp the argument we had on page 2 won't work, since everyone can just go back and read the posts for themselves (and because i quoted your posts so you couldn't keep this constant post revision charade going)

you've really managed to make an ass out yourself this time, jw

[jw316]

@jw

you keep editing your posts so that by the time i hit submit i'm responding to something completely different

in your edit, you've now apparently adopted the position i was arguing on the last page, and are now attempting to convince people that i was arguing against that position

if you'll recall, i said that we don't know enough about OP to make a call on the schools, which was a huge part of my argument. i stated that we don't know whether wayne would be a good choice for op, and i stated that regionals are a good choice for many students.

your attempts to warp the argument we had on page 2 won't work, since everyone can just go back and read the posts for themselves (and because i quoted your posts so you couldn't keep this constant post revision charade going)

you've really managed to make an ass out yourself this time, jw

Yes Brut. I am an ass. The biggest ass of all asses in the history of asses.

The edit times for my posts are all there so not sure what you're implying. I haven't misrepresented anything I've said or tried to say I said otherwise, just edited for clarification as the conversation was taking place. Go back to the first page and my first post...edited at 1:13PM...what did I say then before you chimed in at all? Oh right, I asked for OPs goals and qualified my post based on that.

Albeit I'm only quoting a portion but still....

1.) What do you think you want to do after law school?
2.) What are your views on debt—is it more important for you to go to a school that's higher ranked, or to walk away with your J.D. and the least amount of student loan debt possible?

I'm not going to say Wayne is a great school but a lot of posters probably don't realize that it does tend to place well in the state of Michigan. Obviously U of Michigan is the best law school in the state with the best outcomes and that's why many posters are suggesting that—but for someone who KNOWS they want to practice in Michigan/stay in Michigan then Wayne isn't necessarily a bad idea. It just depends on what you want to do AFTER Wayne

And I still stand by that. Look at ABA disclosures for the Class of 2013 for Michigan schools. Notice the difference in class size and the # of school funded positions.

Michigan: http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... of2013.pdf
Wayne: http://law.wayne.edu/pdfs/class_of_2013 ... report.pdf
Michigan State: http://www.law.msu.edu/careers/ABA%20Em ... 202013.pdf
UDM: https://law.udmercy.edu/index.php/caree ... statistics

UND: http://www3.nd.edu/~ndlaw/career/employ ... ksheet.pdf

Yes Notre Dame's was better, but again how many of those people are headed to practice in Michigan? Not many. So to go back to the original question, Notre Dame with no $ vs Wayne with full ride for someone who wants to practice in Michigan, what makes more sense. Depending on goals, Wayne at full ride isn't a bad call and may be the best call.

[03152016]

i was referring to the edit to your post on page 3
there's no edit time because you made the edit before anyone else posted
also, you're trying to respond to parts of my posts that are on the periphery so that it appears you're responding even though you're actually not actually addressing my point
my point was that i didn't say any of the things you claimed i said, you've been attacking a straw man this entire time. why do you feel the need to lie just to win an internet argument?

i also want to point something out about your pd friend who wants to work in detroit. apparently you think wayne would be a good choice.
i'll leave it to pi people to respond more substantively, but to clear the air – there's a common misconception that pd offices aren't selective. this isn't true in large cities. while pd offices are less concerned with school rank and grades than firms are, and a strong commitment to pi and hustle are prerequisites, prospective students still need to strike a balance – the least amount of debt for the best possible school. here's part of a message i received over the summer from someone who has recently been through the process, posted with permission:

The problem that I've noticed is more that public defender offices are starting to get an influx of highly qualified law school applicants who have been liberated by PSLF. It used to be that the best law school candidates would shy away from public defense. Why do something you love if it won't pay off your $200,000 of debt, when you can just get a miserable firm job for five years and then become a public defender if you still feel the white guilt? Nowadays it's different -- just about every public defender office in a big city across America is getting inundated with applications from students at Yale, NYU, Berkeley, GTown, Vanderbilt and all the way down the ranking food chain, because those public-service-minded individuals can finally afford to go into the work they love.

When I went through the hiring cycle this past year as a 3L, I interviewed with a bunch of offices throughout the country, and most of them simply did not know what to do with all the talent. A lot of them got greedy. The office in CA where I interned for two summers and a school semester passed me up after my callback to do brand new interviews for some students from Harvard, even though they knew nothing about those students. I was pissed, and I bet there are lots of people at the Minneapolis officer where I'll be working who are going to pissed when they find out the Minneapolis office hired a bunch of people from out-of-state T-14 schools this year instead of the people who interned at their office.

i'm not a pi person; i'll leave it to them to hash it out over the best way to get pd in detroit. however, hopefully this post clears some things up. also, note that wayne is not known as a strong school for pi

[03152016]

oh god you did it again
another chapter added onto your post while i was typing
so responding to your latest revision:

you think i'm making a different argument than i am
before i engage any further, just answer this – do you think that my argument is that op should not go to wayne?

[AReasonableMan]

oh god you did it again
another chapter added onto your post while i was typing
so responding to your latest revision:

you think i'm making a different argument than i am
before i engage any further, just answer this – do you think that my argument is that op should not go to wayne?

Relax. Keep it level headed. This isn't Jerry Springer. Being as informed and educated as you are you're expected to abide by a higher standard.

[missruffian]

As someone who works in a legal aid office in Michigan, has a boss who went to Wayne State, and a coworker who went to Michigan, I hope to have some relevant advice. If you plan to stay in Michigan, honestly Wayne is a perfectly good choice. Of course, it also depends what type of law you're interested in. Wayne actually has a much better immigration clinic than Michigan, for example.

Grads coming out of Michigan are having just as hard of a time finding employment as Wayne. The difference is that Michigan students are going for out-of-state jobs whereas Wayne grads are going for in-state. Michigan is so desperate to boost their employment stats that they are paying their students' salaries (like my coworker).

My boss got a full-ride at Wayne. He loves his job and he's never had trouble finding employment. If you do well at Wayne, put in some effort job-searching, you will be just fine. Honestly, I wouldn't put my life on hold for another year just to retake the LSAT and reapply.

ETA: in total agreement with jw.

[jw316]

As someone who works in a legal aid office in Michigan, has a boss who went to Wayne State, and a coworker who went to Michigan, I hope to have some relevant advice. If you plan to stay in Michigan, honestly Wayne is a perfectly good choice. Of course, it also depends what type of law you're interested in. Wayne actually has a much better immigration clinic than Michigan, for example.

Grads coming out of Michigan are having just as hard of a time finding employment as Wayne. The difference is that Michigan students are going for out-of-state jobs whereas Wayne grads are going for in-state. Michigan is so desperate to boost their employment stats that they are paying their students' salaries (like my coworker).

My boss got a full-ride at Wayne. He loves his job and he's never had trouble finding employment. If you do well at Wayne, put in some effort job-searching, you will be just fine. Honestly, I wouldn't put my life on hold for another year just to retake the LSAT and reapply.

ETA: in total agreement with jw.

[03152016]

As someone who works in a legal aid office in Michigan, has a boss who went to Wayne State, and a coworker who went to Michigan, I hope to have some relevant advice. If you plan to stay in Michigan, honestly Wayne is a perfectly good choice. Of course, it also depends what type of law you're interested in. Wayne actually has a much better immigration clinic than Michigan, for example.

Grads coming out of Michigan are having just as hard of a time finding employment as Wayne. The difference is that Michigan students are going for out-of-state jobs whereas Wayne grads are going for in-state. Michigan is so desperate to boost their employment stats that they are paying their students' salaries (like my coworker).

My boss got a full-ride at Wayne. He loves his job and he's never had trouble finding employment. If you do well at Wayne, put in some effort job-searching, you will be just fine. Honestly, I wouldn't put my life on hold for another year just to retake the LSAT and reapply.

ETA: in total agreement with jw.

you do realize that this proves one of my earlier points, right?
or are you too thick to understand?
want me to walk you through it?

[03152016]

also i've been talking with op via pm
she underperformed on the lsat
yet another reason why you're hilariously wrong (and stupid)

[03152016]

also, nice job getting in the ninja edit
i can see you're getting warmed up for another round of "how many times can i edit my posts?"

that's how i can tell you have strong convictions!

[bl1nds1ght]

Grads coming out of Michigan are having just as hard of a time finding employment as Wayne.

wut

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2013/

vs.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2013/

It's very apparent which is objectively better in all areas of employment.

My boss got a full-ride at Wayne. He loves his job and he's never had trouble finding employment.

Anecdotal.

If you do well at Wayne, put in some effort job-searching, you will be just fine.

Yeah, because the unemployed Wayne grads just didn't put enough effort into finding jobs. Not saying that considerable effort won't get you somewhere or that OP'll necessarily be doomed to unemployment from Wayne, but your statement is pretty ignorant.

Honestly, I wouldn't put my life on hold for another year just to retake the LSAT and reapply.

Pretty shortsighted.

[ballcaps]

that's a funny picture.

that said, i'm sorry but i've gotta beef with some (a lot) of what you guys are saying.

Grads coming out of Michigan are having just as hard of a time finding employment as Wayne.

on no planet is this statement even close to true:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wayne/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/2013/

you guys are both relying on anecdotes - people you know, stories you've heard - instead of abundant and readily available data.

i don't doubt that plenty of people graduate from wayne, get jobs, and are reasonably happy. the issue is that that outcome is much, much less likely at wayne than at, say, michigan.

to do well at wayne - to get a job at all, even - you need to be at least above median. surely you guys agree with this?

well if that's true, then it's a massive footnote on the quality of the school! that means that success is available to less than half of the people who attend!

moreover, if you're comfortable focusing on exceptions rather than rules, the same reasoning can be applied to literally any law school in the country. go deep into the TTT roster, and it's probably still true that if you do well, you'll be fine.

to recommend a law school to someone anonymously, without being able to predict how they will perform in law school (which no one in the world can do), you must go by the numbers. you cannot responsibly recommend an option that only works out for 48% of people who take it. that's just bad advice.

[03152016]

As someone who works in a legal aid office in Michigan, has a boss who went to Wayne State, and a coworker who went to Michigan, I hope to have some relevant advice. If you plan to stay in Michigan, honestly Wayne is a perfectly good choice. Of course, it also depends what type of law you're interested in. Wayne actually has a much better immigration clinic than Michigan, for example.

Grads coming out of Michigan are having just as hard of a time finding employment as Wayne. The difference is that Michigan students are going for out-of-state jobs whereas Wayne grads are going for in-state. Michigan is so desperate to boost their employment stats that they are paying their students' salaries (like my coworker).

My boss got a full-ride at Wayne. He loves his job and he's never had trouble finding employment. If you do well at Wayne, put in some effort job-searching, you will be just fine. Honestly, I wouldn't put my life on hold for another year just to retake the LSAT and reapply.

ETA: in total agreement with jw.

this is an altogether terrible post. don't give people advice if you don't know what you're talking about, thank you.

reasons why this post is awful:
1) your anecdotes are, at very best, completely worthless. at worst, actively misleading.
2) wayne placement pre-recession is a complete non-factor post-recession, as i said before, if you bothered to read the thread before posting
3) specialty rankings are beyond worthless. if you're simply comparing the relative strengths of the programs, michigan smokes wayne, period. just look at the placement.
4) grads coming out of michigan are having a much easier time finding employment than wayne. have you even looked at the aba reports? there is no way you could compare the two with a straight face (unless you didn't have your facts straight)
5) wayne grads are going for in-state because they can't get out-of-state. they're not staying in-state out of their own choosing.
6) wayne pays students' salaries too you idiot. mich 3.5%, wayne 2.3%.
7) the myth that students graduating jobless just aren't trying hard enough is a convenient way to shift the blame.
7.5) or maybe you consider half the class failing to find legal jobs "just fine"
8) a retake would be life-changing for op, especially because she underperformed on the lsat. god help the poor soul who listens to your "advice"

[Young Marino]

I second what jw316 said. If you can see yourself working in a smaller firm after law school in Michigan, Wayne State isn't a bad bet.

[romothesavior]

Grads coming out of Michigan are having just as hard of a time finding employment as Wayne.

This is wrong. As in, statistically wrong.

Huge fallacy: "Wayne grads get more jobs in Michigan than Notre Dame or Michigan grads, so it's a better school for getting a job in Michigan." Self-selection bias plays a huge factor.

OP should retake. Wayne State for free isn't a terrible option if OP wants Michigan small law. But I do think OP should consider aiming higher, because 5-10 opens a LOT of doors.

[AReasonableMan]

Grads coming out of Michigan are having just as hard of a time finding employment as Wayne.

This is wrong. As in, statistically wrong.

Huge fallacy: "Wayne grads get more jobs in Michigan than Notre Dame or Michigan grads, so it's a better school for getting a job in Michigan." Self-selection bias plays a huge factor.

OP should retake. Wayne State for free isn't a terrible option if OP wants Michigan small law. But I do think OP should consider aiming higher, because 5-10 opens a LOT of doors.

Yep. S/he's basically limiting themselves to a fairly low spot on the pecking order. Statistically, they're limiting themselves to half the salary, and half the chance at securing any job at all with the only tangible benefit being they don't have to spend another Saturday at an LSAC testing center. There is nothing wrong with the modest life, but if one is able to go down a much easier path it becomes irrational not to pursue path. On the other hand, weekends are very important, and as the Beastie Boys once said you have to fight for your right to party. If OP believes in this mantra then it would be intellectually dishonest to prioritize a better future over being able to sleep in on a Saturday in February.