Hastings, Loyola, Santa Clara, Chapman Forum

[kwabbs]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

[Ramius]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

Stop focusing on anecdotal evidence for some semblance of success. I went to a middling public school where a friend became a professional athlete, therefore I'm ready for pro athlete fame!

Law school isn't inherently a bad idea, it's just a bad idea if you don't know exactly what you're getting into (namely job prospects, debt, etc.)

[nlee10]

What is a decent scholarship to Loyola/Pdine to you?

At least half-tuition, but more the merrier. lol.

I don't know how to say this online without sounding too conceited...but I won't have any debt. The family business my dad and gramps started and which I helped since early college really took off, thus being able to afford such expense.

[Ramius]

What is a decent scholarship to Loyola/Pdine to you?

At least half-tuition, but more the merrier. lol.

I don't know how to say this online without sounding too conceited...but I won't have any debt. The family business my dad and gramps started and which I helped since early college really took off, thus being able to afford such expense.

Not trying to hijack, but what is your expected outcome from those schools?

I'm not trying to be overly negative, but using $100k for a degree that won't serve you in the future (read <50% chance) seems like an inherently bad investment, regardless of how "fortunate" you are.

[nlee10]

Not trying to hijack, but what is your expected outcome from those schools?

I'm not trying to be overly negative, but using $100k for a degree that won't serve you in the future (read <50% chance) seems like an inherently bad investment, regardless of how "fortunate" you are.

[AReasonableMan]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

In real life people are nicer, but that's likely because nobody wants to humiliate another person. If the criticism were attached to OP as a person rather than OP as a pseudonym, I'm sure most people would be more tactful.

Nobody said it was impossible. IDK what Kaiser is, but out of any three hundred people, a few are likely to have ridiculous connections. Also, one will be valedictorian. It's not a useful enough data point to evidence an argument.

Pretend law school were a bet on which team will win their next NBA game. Pretend that in this bet, the payoff was the same, you either win or lose, and there's no odds. All teams cost equal to bet on. It would be crazy to choose to bet on the Sixers instead of the Spurs. Yes, the Sixers win some games. Yes, the Spurs lose some. But this is about probable outcomes, not extraordinary ones.

It's crazy to subject yourself to being on the low end of the stick throughout your entire career for no real advantage. For instance, a person may pick Firm B over Firm A despite Firm A being better regarded in their practice area, because they believe that Firm B will make them a better lawyer and that they will be happier there. Even the two people you mentioned didn't get anything great. I'm not discounting their achievements, but am saying that this outcome would be standard at other schools. Equally important is the fact that their going to Loyola will always be a disadvantage. At their second and third job, it will be a disadvantage. Maybe they'll overcome it, but an identical person from UCLA will always be picked first, even a decade from now.

[kwabbs]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

In real life people are nicer, but that's likely because nobody wants to humiliate another person. If the criticism were attached to OP as a person rather than OP as a pseudonym, I'm sure most people would be more tactful.

Nobody said it was impossible. IDK what Kaiser is, but out of any three hundred people, a few are likely to have ridiculous connections. Also, one will be valedictorian. It's not a useful enough data point to evidence an argument.

Pretend law school were a bet on which team will win their next NBA game. Pretend that in this bet, the payoff was the same, you either win or lose, and there's no odds. All teams cost equal to bet on. It would be crazy to choose to bet on the Sixers instead of the Spurs. Yes, the Sixers win some games. Yes, the Spurs lose some. But this is about probable outcomes, not extraordinary ones.

It's crazy to subject yourself to being on the low end of the stick throughout your entire career for no real advantage. For instance, a person may pick Firm B over Firm A despite Firm A being better regarded in their practice area, because they believe that Firm B will make them a better lawyer and that they will be happier there. Even the two people you mentioned didn't get anything great. I'm not discounting their achievements, but am saying that this outcome would be standard at other schools. Equally important is the fact that their going to Loyola will always be a disadvantage. At their second and third job, it will be a disadvantage. Maybe they'll overcome it, but an identical person from UCLA will always be picked first, even a decade from now.

Very true.. Kaiser Permanente one of the nation's largest health plans.. more centralized in California though I guess.

[romothesavior]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

This is like saying, "A guy I know made six figures gambling, so it's not impossible. Throw 100k on the craps table and follow your dreams!"

[kwabbs]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

This is like saying, "A guy I know made six figures gambling, so it's not impossible. Throw 100k on the craps table and follow your dreams!"

hey hey I never said to actually do it.. I just said there is a possibility.

[BigZuck]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

This is like saying, "A guy I know made six figures gambling, so it's not impossible. Throw 100k on the craps table and follow your dreams!"

hey hey I never said to actually do it.. I just said there is a possibility.

Why would the fact that it is possible possibly matter? Lots of stuff is possible. But probability, etc.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

OP if you are willing to retake there are very good free study guides on here and people you can communicate with to help. Honestly attending any of these schools without at least half tuition would be so crazy. At my school there are a bunch of people on law review without jobs--nationwide only about half of graduates are finding work, and at these schools that's more like a quarter.

[AReasonableMan]

The job thing isn't a joke. No one is going to even consider you for a job enabling you to pay off the debt. Your hustle and networking is largely irrelevant. There are two scenarios where it factors in:

ONE: You network with someone high up at a big or midsize firm. One of the 3 big things is not terrible but is lacking - school, grades or interviewing. You will probably get rejected given how competitive the market is, but low and hold your contact comes to the rescue, and saves your ass. These are group decisions so it's unlikely that this will surpass 2 of 3 not being there. Going to bat helps along edges but it can't paint the whole painting.

TWO: A solo really likes you. He or she gives you a job.

The issue with One is you're already out of the running due to school, and these schools are so poor in such a rough market that the top ten percent won't do it. You'll need to be in the top 3 or 4 students of the whole class.

The issue with Two is as well meaning as the solo is unless they're insane they won't pay you the salary you need to live and pay back sticker debt. When the going rate is 500/week, why pay you 2000/week? Even if they are charitable, they would rather give money to the charity of their choice than some pasty ass middle class lawyer. If they are insane then they'll likely do something to get themselves disbarred, thus taking away your job.

[romothesavior]

hey hey I never said to actually do it.. I just said there is a possibility.

No one ever said its impossible to get a good job from any school. But when you're looking at investing three years and taking on a ton of debt, you deal in probabilities, not mere possibilities.

Going to any of these schools is just a bad investment, period.

[AReasonableMan]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

This is like saying, "A guy I know made six figures gambling, so it's not impossible. Throw 100k on the craps table and follow your dreams!"

hey hey I never said to actually do it.. I just said there is a possibility.

Isn't it possible that they can make 6-figures with their BA? Heck, is it not possible that had they never even gotten a GED, lost both eyes in a fishing accident, and only speak Ancient Egyptian they could make six-figures?

[pancakes3]

I know a double-blinded HS-dropout ancient Egyptian translator but his job was school-funded so the point still stands - don't go to Loyola.

[RamenNoodle]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

This is like saying, "A guy I know made six figures gambling, so it's not impossible. Throw 100k on the craps table and follow your dreams!"

OP just wants to throw down 100k on the craps table that is most CA law schools.

[AReasonableMan]

I feel ya OP.. It's not that people aren't giving advice.. I've just noticed on here ppl tend to lend to the more jerk side of giving advice. Sometimes it's hard to even differentiate if people are being serious or sarcastic (usually sarcastic). It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get jobs from these schools.. Maybe not as an actual attorney but who knows. I know two people who graduated from Loyola and now work for Kaiser making 6 figures so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Though those scores are kind of low for loyola and hastings.

This is like saying, "A guy I know made six figures gambling, so it's not impossible. Throw 100k on the craps table and follow your dreams!"

OP just wants to throw down 100k on the craps table that is most CA law schools.

1.) In a pass/come bet, your odds of beating the casino are slightly over 49%.
2.) You get paid all at once, and don't wait 3 years of law school, plus at least 5 years of practice to reap the benefits.
3.) You don't sink 3 years of your life into the bet.
4.) If you bring a 100k to a casino, you're going to get some damn good buffet and hotel accommodations (admittedly if you get some callbacks, you will get some damn good food and hotel accommodations, but this is only if you are on the track to wining).

On the other hand, law school does make you somewhat smarter, but being smart and being poor is a very depressing combo.

[deadpanic]

On the other hand, law school does make you somewhat smarter, but being smart and being poor is a very depressing combo.

I am not so sure about this. I know a lot of dumb people that came in dumb to law school and left the same way. You get you to read a bunch of random cases you otherwise probably wouldn't read, but I do not think it makes you that much smarter. If anything, it usually makes dumb people have some unfounded confidence that will inevitably lead to a drunk argument with someone about the constitutionality of something completely irrelevant.

OP: stay far away from any of these schools. Only with a full ride and free place to stay could I honestly recommend one. Even then, I wouldn't because your chances of becoming a lawyer are not very good from any of these schools.

[jselson]

These schools aren't even worth going to on a full ride because of opportunity costs and the high risk of depression/substance abuse they may cause.

[Pragmatic Gun]

On the other hand, law school does make you somewhat smarter, but being smart and being poor is a very depressing combo.

I am not so sure about this. I know a lot of dumb people that came in dumb to law school and left the same way. You get you to read a bunch of random cases you otherwise probably wouldn't read, but I do not think it makes you that much smarter. If anything, it usually makes dumb people have some unfounded confidence that will inevitably lead to a drunk argument with someone about the constitutionality of something completely irrelevant.

OP: stay far away from any of these schools. Only with a full ride and free place to stay could I honestly recommend one. Even then, I wouldn't because your chances of becoming a lawyer are not very good from any of these schools.

Clever the person, but none the wiser.

[canuckabroad]

OP,

I can't give you any better advice than the harsh truths you've received above, but if you are truly intent on going to a subpar school with massive debt, the only semi-viable *emphasis on the semi* option would be Santa Clara for IP, because their placement in that sector isn't too bad (just purely because of the area they are in). But even so, if you don't have the credits you need for patent bar, you will be taking a year to get those (and should also use that time to retake).

A jump up from 156 is easy, its when you get into the 170+ range where you can't always count on a score jump. I understand not wanting to retake but at 156 I think you're in a spot where you have to if you really want to go to law school. Honestly with a little bit of practice (a few hours a week doing practice tests) you could get into the mid 160's and at least be looking at getting a year+ covered at these schools. And if you aren't willing to commit a couple hours a week to studying for the LSAT because of "overloading" how are you going to a) make it through law school b) ever be a lawyer and c) ever pay off that debt. Studying for the LSAT while working and studying undergrad is nothing compared to the burden you're going to be under if you're working contract attorney jobs and likely a full-time non-legal position trying to pay off 200,000+ in debt.

[yunjh1066]

Dear OP,

These are the schools that I consider as well, although I may be applying for next cycle. It's really case by case, I believe. I sincerely want to believe that top-tiered law schools are worth it but I also hear from law students that the attorneys that they worked for graduated from thomas cooley, Whittier, or Cal Western etc. They think they are doing incredible in the fields that they settled down with. The firm that I am trying to work for, the attorneys also all graduated from T30.

I am considering to work part time and apply to these schools for their part-time programs. Hopefully, I don't have to pay a chunk of tuition and working under the attorneys who graduated from these schools will lead me to the right way after I graduate (big hopes, I know). But if you can get a good scholarships from those schools, then you should go! I know how you feel with those lsats and not getting improvements. Maybe, retaking after a hardcore study of one year may help. But, i know, currently, you are probably exhausted. Same here. I just want to enjoy my life and not be taken by those highly-stressful law firms/big laws.

[Pragmatic Gun]

Dear OP,

These are the schools that I consider as well, although I may be applying for next cycle. It's really case by case, I believe. I sincerely want to believe that top-tiered law schools are worth it but I also hear from law students that the attorneys that they worked for graduated from Thomas Cooley, Whittier, or Cal Western etc. They think they are doing incredible in the fields that they settled down with. The firm that I am trying to work for, the attorneys also all graduated from T30.

I am considering to work part time and apply to these schools for their part-time programs. Hopefully, I don't have to pay a chunk of tuition and working under the attorneys who graduated from these schools will lead me to the right way after I graduate (big hopes, I know). But if you can get a good scholarships from those schools, then you should go! I know how you feel with those lsats and not getting improvements. Maybe, retaking after a hardcore study of one year may help. But, i know, currently, you are probably exhausted. Same here. I just want to enjoy my life and not be taken by those highly-stressful law firms/big laws.

Those big law firm jobs are available overwhelmingly for a select few. It's delusional to think that, if these are the schools you are considering, that you can afford to blow off these firms.

[Rigo]

These are the schools that I consider as well, although I may be applying for next cycle. It's really case by case, I believe. I sincerely want to believe that top-tiered law schools are worth it but I also hear from law students that the attorneys that they worked for graduated from Thomas Cooley, Whittier, or Cal Western etc. They think they are doing incredible in the fields that they settled down with. The firm that I am trying to work for, the attorneys also all graduated from T30.
...But if you can get a good scholarships from those schools, then you should go!

Oh god. Future readers please disregard.
OP has left the building anyways.

[brorepresentation1]

"sub" ivy? "pre" law? 156?

You're lost.