The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame Forum

[McAvoy]

someone who has a strong desire to become a lawyer should not attend a school that gives them a 50% chance of doing so

Again, this is not happening in a vacuum. Idaho law is open enrollment. Someone with legit credentials is more likely to clean up than not.

are they open enrollment?
their 509 says 653 apps and 364 offers
unless i'm misunderstanding what open enrollment means?

I didn't literally mean open enrollment. 50% and 152/3.2 medians is effectively open enrollment, I would say.

[muskies970]

In sum. Approximately and based on averages

50% chance of being 60k in debt and "wasting" 3 years of life
50% chance of being 60k in debt but making 500k+ more over the course of a career.

it's great how you're missing the point
people don't go to law school to play roulette
it's not like you fail to find employment after law school and say, oh well, guess it's onto the next thing

you go to law school because you have a strong desire to become a lawyer
that is what you want to do with your life

even if the positive outcome far outweighs the negative outcome
someone who has a strong desire to become a lawyer should not attend a school that gives them a 50% chance of doing so

Why are you so angry? I'm just pointing out that it's not a terrible financial decision which is what I thought we were debating.

Looking at it purely from this new position you're defending, becoming a lawyer, I would suggest a slight modification to becoming a lawyer in Idaho. In that case, it seems to be the general consensus that Idaho for law school
Is the highest chance albeit not a guarantee. If you're only advice then is don't do anything unless you have a certain threshold of certainty fine, but I think that's a bit outrageous. Life is a series of risks that can be lessened through hard work. It's not a literal spin of the roulette wheel a lot of it will be hustling/ studying hard while at uIdaho.

[03152016]

re: nony
but my point was that the goal itself seems very risky
over the course of the argument we shifted into different territory about retaking and other markets, etc., but my main point is that the risk of failure seems awfully high

also, we don't know op's calculation here
how strongly he wants to become a practicing lawyer vs how strongly he wants to stay in idaho
he says that ultimately he wants to stay in idaho, but i think we can assume that ultimately he wants to become a lawyer as well
obviously those aren't incompatible, but he may need to prioritize one when making this decision (assuming he hasn't already matriculated)

[PepperJack]

The issue isn't, like some have said, that you can't be a good lawyer coming out of a shitty school. The issue is you may never have the chance to be. Helping Johnny get his 60 in a school zone reduced to points isn't going to get you on CNN. In the baby boomer era there was a shortage of lawyers so talent and work ethic won out. These things still matter, but only half of all lawyers will be in a position where talent and work ethic are applicable. It's not elitist, it's objective logic. Ignoring the objective for the subjective is elitist.

[6lehderjets]

In sum. Approximately and based on averages

50% chance of being 60k in debt and "wasting" 3 years of life
50% chance of being 60k in debt but making 500k+ more over the course of a career.

it's great how you're missing the point
people don't go to law school to play roulette
it's not like you fail to find employment after law school and say, oh well, guess it's onto the next thing

you go to law school because you have a strong desire to become a lawyer
that is what you want to do with your life

even if the positive outcome far outweighs the negative outcome
someone who has a strong desire to become a lawyer should not attend a school that gives them a 50% chance of doing so

Stop.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

1) 60K is exaggerated. Have you been to Idaho? You can find a great apartment for $500. Cut that in half if you have a roommate. Cost of living is dirt cheap.

2) Some of the incoming students that go to these rural schools have plans to work as solos coming into law school. They return to their hometowns and hang a shingle right away.

3) Many students don't enter practice right away. There are many students, who are in the late 20s and early 30s, who decide to have kids during 3L and raise their kids. That skews employment stats.

You're from the east coast. Dont be on here talking about something you have no clue about. LST isn't gospel. There is more to those numbers that meets the eye in some situations.

[03152016]

In sum. Approximately and based on averages

50% chance of being 60k in debt and "wasting" 3 years of life
50% chance of being 60k in debt but making 500k+ more over the course of a career.

it's great how you're missing the point
people don't go to law school to play roulette
it's not like you fail to find employment after law school and say, oh well, guess it's onto the next thing

you go to law school because you have a strong desire to become a lawyer
that is what you want to do with your life

even if the positive outcome far outweighs the negative outcome
someone who has a strong desire to become a lawyer should not attend a school that gives them a 50% chance of doing so

Why are you so angry? I'm just pointing out that it's not a terrible financial decision which is what I thought we were debating.

Looking at it purely from this new position you're defending, becoming a lawyer, I would suggest a slight modification to becoming a lawyer in Idaho. In that case, it seems to be the general consensus that Idaho for law school
Is the highest chance albeit not a guarantee. If you're only advice then is don't do anything unless you have a certain threshold of certainty fine, but I think that's a bit outrageous. Life is a series of risks that can be lessened through hard work. It's not a literal spin of the roulette wheel a lot of it will be hustling/ studying hard while at uIdaho.

why do you think i'm angry?
i'm more incredulous at the audacity of your arguments than anything
maybe that's coming across as angry, if so, i apologize

read my last response to you again, carefully
i was writing about framing the decision in purely financial terms vs in terms of one's career
the roulette analogy was in reference to your argument which framed the issue as risk/reward, lifetime earnings vs debt + no job
you win big or you lose big
i was arguing there's a deeper motive, a desire to become a lawyer
so even if my 'loss' doesn't devastate me financially, it would in terms of my career goals

also, like i said above, my issue is the goal itself, and op needs to think about the relative weight that all these factors have on his decision
example:
ultimately i want to end up in nyc
for me (and not necessarily for op, but for me) that's where i want to work/live
but my desire to go to law school and become a lawyer ultimately trumps that
i'm young(ish), not tied down, etc
so if my options are ut vs touro, i pack up my bags and head to austin
i'm not saying op has to make the exact same calculation i would make
what i am saying, however, is that op should reevaluate his goals in light of the available employment data
his current goals are risky and i think competing factors could outweigh the geography rationale
if he looks at the data and still decides staying in idaho is worth it, fine
but i suspect that may not be the case

[03152016]

Stop.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

1) 60K is exaggerated. Have you been to Idaho? You can find a great apartment for $500. Cut that in half if you have a roommate. Cost of living is dirt cheap.

oh please
stop embarrassing yourself
those numbers are from the school itself
for col + books, transportation and other expenses
then recalculated to included cost inflation, loan fees, and interest
they're not pulled out of the air

maybe you can get the number lower, but that's what the school apparently thinks you need
and i trust them more than i trust you

[03152016]

i'll concede that i think the lst calculation is high by a few thousand
but by no more
i'll do the math itt if enough people are interested

[03152016]

[2) Some of the incoming students that go to these rural schools have plans to work as solos coming into law school. They return to their hometowns and hang a shingle right away.

oh great!
now we're up to 62% employment!
it's funny when people try to argue against numbers

[McAvoy]

Stop.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

1) 60K is exaggerated. Have you been to Idaho? You can find a great apartment for $500. Cut that in half if you have a roommate. Cost of living is dirt cheap.

oh please
stop embarrassing yourself
those numbers are from the school itself
for col + books, transportation and other expenses
then recalculated to included cost inflation, loan fees, and interest
they're not pulled out of the air

maybe you can get the number lower, but that's what the school apparently thinks you need
and i trust them more than i trust you

Come one, you know that's a bad piece of data to point at. These are notoriously arbitrary and inconsistent across schools. You're arguing that, for example, because UT and Idaho have the same COL budget, the cities have comparable real-life COL? https://www.utexas.edu/law/finaid/costs/

[03152016]

Stop.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

1) 60K is exaggerated. Have you been to Idaho? You can find a great apartment for $500. Cut that in half if you have a roommate. Cost of living is dirt cheap.

oh please
stop embarrassing yourself
those numbers are from the school itself
for col + books, transportation and other expenses
then recalculated to included cost inflation, loan fees, and interest
they're not pulled out of the air

maybe you can get the number lower, but that's what the school apparently thinks you need
and i trust them more than i trust you

Come one, you know that's a bad piece of data to point at. These are notoriously arbitrary and inconsistent across schools. You're arguing that, for example, because UT and Idaho have the same COL budget, the cities have comparable real-life COL? https://www.utexas.edu/law/finaid/costs/

ok!
i'll do the math! hang on

[03152016]

The issue isn't, like some have said, that you can't be a good lawyer coming out of a shitty school. The issue is you may never have the chance to be. Helping Johnny get his 60 in a school zone reduced to points isn't going to get you on CNN. In the baby boomer era there was a shortage of lawyers so talent and work ethic won out. These things still matter, but only half of all lawyers will be in a position where talent and work ethic are applicable. It's not elitist, it's objective logic. Ignoring the objective for the subjective is elitist.

well said

[McAvoy]

The issue isn't, like some have said, that you can't be a good lawyer coming out of a shitty school. The issue is you may never have the chance to be. Helping Johnny get his 60 in a school zone reduced to points isn't going to get you on CNN. In the baby boomer era there was a shortage of lawyers so talent and work ethic won out. These things still matter, but only half of all lawyers will be in a position where talent and work ethic are applicable. It's not elitist, it's objective logic. Ignoring the objective for the subjective is elitist.

well said

Said for the first time ever about a Pepperjack post

[03152016]

3) Many students don't enter practice right away. There are many students, who are in the late 20s and early 30s, who decide to have kids during 3L and raise their kids. That skews employment stats.

by how much?
because i've been arguing with numbers and data
can you do the same, or is this like, a 'gut feeling'
surely some students do that, but i highly doubt enough to move the needle in a significant way

[03152016]

these are the OFFICIAL numbers directly from the u idaho website

Room & Board $9,692
Books & Supplies $1,232
Transportation $1,106
Miscellaneous & Personal $3,786

that'll be a total of $15,816
now what about that cost inflation
lst says a modest 2%

1L: $15,816
2L: $16,132
3L: $16,454

now lets talk loan fees
all stafford bc under 20.5k
so a very modest 1.072

1L: $170 | $15,986 total so far
2L: $173 | $16,305 total so far
3L: $176 | $16,630 total so far

now interest
we'll assume a september start date and a may end date + six month deferment
that's 39 months
what will these loans look like at repayment?

1L: $19,444
2L: $18,672
3L: $17,931

$56,047

1) 60K is exaggerated.

1) 60K is exaggerated.

1) 60K is exaggerated.

1) 60K is exaggerated.

1) 60K is exaggerated.

[03152016]

You're from the east coast. Dont be on here talking about something you have no clue about. LST isn't gospel. There is more to those numbers that meets the eye in some situations.

what does it matter that i'm from the east coast?
am i incapable of looking up data about a school in idaho because i'm from new york?

[03152016]

Come one, you know that's a bad piece of data to point at. These are notoriously arbitrary and inconsistent across schools. You're arguing that, for example, because UT and Idaho have the same COL budget, the cities have comparable real-life COL? https://www.utexas.edu/law/finaid/costs/

actually if we do an apples to apples comparison (i'm including books, transportation, misc in my numbers)
ut is $19,446
vs
idaho's $15,816

lst reflects that as well
they predict full-ride idaho owes $61,214 at graduation vs $74,136 full-ride ut

[pancakes3]

Bro, there are better ways to procrastinate than digging your heels in on an internet argument. You hungry? Want a snickers?

[03152016]

ugh i do have so much work to do


but i'm not digging in my heels really
i'm open to being proven wrong
just looking for facts though, not conjecture

[McAvoy]

Come one, you know that's a bad piece of data to point at. These are notoriously arbitrary and inconsistent across schools. You're arguing that, for example, because UT and Idaho have the same COL budget, the cities have comparable real-life COL? https://www.utexas.edu/law/finaid/costs/

actually if we do an apples to apples comparison (i'm including books, transportation, misc in my numbers)
ut is $19,446
vs
idaho's $15,816

lst reflects that as well
they predict full-ride idaho owes $61,214 at graduation vs $74,136 full-ride ut

You said a page back that Idaho's website budgeted 20K a year, so that's where my statement came from.

Austin costs a fuck ton more than 19K a year, especially when including all academic expenses (to the point about these projections being very arbitrary and generally stupid).

[eriedoctrine]

Notre Dame is probably the more recognized school.

[03152016]

Come one, you know that's a bad piece of data to point at. These are notoriously arbitrary and inconsistent across schools. You're arguing that, for example, because UT and Idaho have the same COL budget, the cities have comparable real-life COL? https://www.utexas.edu/law/finaid/costs/

actually if we do an apples to apples comparison (i'm including books, transportation, misc in my numbers)
ut is $19,446
vs
idaho's $15,816

lst reflects that as well
they predict full-ride idaho owes $61,214 at graduation vs $74,136 full-ride ut

You said a page back that Idaho's website budgeted 20K a year, so that's where my statement came from.

Austin costs a fuck ton more than 19K a year, especially when including all academic expenses (to the point about these projections being very arbitrary and generally stupid).

the 60k number was in reference to non-tuition costs according to idaho's website, then recalculated to include fees, interest, and cost inflation
i wasn't intending to suggest that room and board alone was 20k yearly

[03152016]

Notre Dame is probably the more recognized school.

i thought your comment was funny before you scrubbed it

[03152016]

also i don't think i said col would be 60k or 20k/yearly actually

[McAvoy]

Come one, you know that's a bad piece of data to point at. These are notoriously arbitrary and inconsistent across schools. You're arguing that, for example, because UT and Idaho have the same COL budget, the cities have comparable real-life COL? https://www.utexas.edu/law/finaid/costs/

actually if we do an apples to apples comparison (i'm including books, transportation, misc in my numbers)
ut is $19,446
vs
idaho's $15,816

lst reflects that as well
they predict full-ride idaho owes $61,214 at graduation vs $74,136 full-ride ut

You said a page back that Idaho's website budgeted 20K a year, so that's where my statement came from.

Austin costs a fuck ton more than 19K a year, especially when including all academic expenses (to the point about these projections being very arbitrary and generally stupid).

the 60k number was in reference to non-tuition costs according to idaho's website, then recalculated to include fees, interest, and cost inflation
i wasn't intending to suggest that room and board alone was 20k yearly

Gotcha. At any rate, OP is not a real person, so let's just call this good until U of I comes up in a real choosing thread later this cycle.