Temple Law - employment prospects? 60k job after graduation? Forum

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

I just don't see why you wouldnt do it. Getting a higher score would be easy for you if games are your biggest struggle. The games are easy to get better at. With a higher score comes a HUGE range of options and more scholly money. With more options comes a better understanding of how much worse Temple is compared to the rest of the law schools in your area.

I practice the games and devote about 6 hours every day to the study of this exam. It is actually incredibly difficult to do that while maintaining other commitments, so I do believe that I am doing what you suggest.

[ilikebaseball]

I just don't see why you wouldnt do it. Getting a higher score would be easy for you if games are your biggest struggle. The games are easy to get better at. With a higher score comes a HUGE range of options and more scholly money. With more options comes a better understanding of how much worse Temple is compared to the rest of the law schools in your area.

I practice the games and devote about 6 hours every day to the study of this exam. It is actually incredibly difficult to do that while maintaining other commitments, so I do believe that I am doing what you suggest.

You practice the games 6 hours a day and you're still having time issues...?

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

I just don't see why you wouldnt do it. Getting a higher score would be easy for you if games are your biggest struggle. The games are easy to get better at. With a higher score comes a HUGE range of options and more scholly money. With more options comes a better understanding of how much worse Temple is compared to the rest of the law schools in your area.

I practice the games and devote about 6 hours every day to the study of this exam. It is actually incredibly difficult to do that while maintaining other commitments, so I do believe that I am doing what you suggest.

You practice the games 6 hours a day and you're still having time issues...?

No, sir. I practice the games doing a section, 4 games, every day and then going over the inferences by viewing youtube videos. Then I try to replicate those inferences myself by redoing the games enough times so I can get the games without any errors done in around 8 minutes. This whole process takes over 2 hours. The rest of the time is devoted to other aspects of the exam.

[03152016]

reading powerscore and doing 30 pts over 2 years is a ridiculously light amount of prep
the score u got is right in line w what i'd expect from someone putting in that amount of prep

look, you came to a site called 'top-law-schools.com'
a site where virtually all regular posters put in actual, serious prep hours and didn't make excuses
and virtually all regular posters ended up with top decile scores and top schools

if u don't want to follow that path, that's ur own business
just don't expect validation on this forum

[objctnyrhnr]

no one said you have to do biglaw
where is that coming from?

also, you are prepping wrong
you should be drilling before taking prep tests, and reading the bibles + 30 PTs ought to take 2 months, not 2 years
you do not have time to maximize your potential by september
you should visit the prep forum and shoot for a december take

Never accused anyone of saying that I had to do BIGlaw. I was merely making an observation that after graduating from Temple, I would not be very attractive to them, but that this didn't bother me for the above-stated reasons..
If you're referring to the *drills* on the bible books, I've done them all last summer when I bought the latest version of the book. Since then I've only done practice tests. I'll visit the prep forum to see if there's anything else you guys can suggest. Thanks.

I'll be the guy who says what you did re: LSAT prep was not enough.

I did not bother quoting your original post, but you said you did 30 LSAT tests over the course of two years? You need to do all 80 (or whatever)...and then do them again. You should probably take a class, or maybe at least hire a tutor for a couple sessions. You need to look over every right and wrong answer and write out why it is right and why the others were wrong (particularly in the arguments). The arguments and the puzzles are insanely learnable. You need to be able to do every game in your sleep, to the point that the answers start to come to you without physically having to draw out the pictures. You just have not put enough into it. I acknowledge that you have put some, but the sheer gravity of the situation still does not seem to be appreciated by you. The amount that a few additional LSAT points will get you, admissions or $$ wise, is completely absurd.

Perhaps you'll respond with something about lack of money to devote enough time and all that and then you'll talk about how you don't have enough $ for a class either, but if you are seriously contemplating severely limiting your options in the way that you are [by going to temple] for the amount you're going to end up spending on it, both in opportunity cost and tuition, it's worth taking out a small loan to finance your living for a few months so that you can live this test. additionally, a lot of classes give finaid.

you clearly have the aptitude--you got into a top UG and excelled there. of LSAT-type standarized tests, the LSAT is the one that most closely correlates to IQ (I have read this a couple times, but I don't feel like finding the source to cite it). part of the reason everybody on this thread is so adamant is because you could get at least a decent LSAT score if you really applied yourself.

so yeah--you are not doing enough. I did not let myself take the LSAT until I was getting 177+ on every single practice test I took. I thought this would take a year (of college). it ended up taking three--two years of college, one year of FT job, but I ended up getting a score I was really happy with. it was not a 177, but I got perfect scores on every section besides the RC, and that was when I knew I could not do any better. take your time. you'll get there.

I wonder how many people who have gotten into T14 universities have actually done what you have and what you're suggesting that I do. Your answer, in a nutshell, is "you studied hard, now study more and 'live this exam', make this the focus and sole purpose of your life until you finally break that 170 barrier". I could be wrong, but I sincerely believe that I've already studied more than the average T14 student. Members can correct me on this. And while I applaud your mental fortitude and devotion, I will say that it is not how I hope to spend the next few years. Not to mention that you make the assumption that because you did this, that I can pull it off too since it has proven to work for you. You also make the assumption that since I did well at a "top UG" that I have the aptitude. Then you equal aptitude with IQ and correlate that to LSAT score. A big leap. Since we both believe that IQ is correlated to LSAT score, you should at least recognize that we have different IQs and that possibly yours is a lot higher than mine, thus making you achieve a higher score on the LSAT, and not necessarily owing to the study methods that you hope I espouse. Study harder is all too easy to say, but we're different people with different circumstances; I cannot just drop everything and make this commitment on a leap of faith.

You don't need to break the 170 barrier with your GPA. you need to get like mid 160's...even low 160's would give you tons of options that you don't have. i'm not saying you'll be able to do what I did, but if you can just take the time to improve substantially on the games, objectively the most learnable section, your whole life will be different.

you are saying that you are not willing to put your life on hold for a couple months (i bet 2-3 months of full time studying would do the trick...or a couple years of part time studying) to take a shot on a better outcome, basically. but when you think about it, especially from your position the way you described it, that's literally what law school is. it's THREE YEARS for a shot at a better outcome (you say you don't like your outcomes as you see them now; i'm not saying that being a lawyer is objectively better...just that you feel that way)

if you are willing to spend 3 years of your life gambling on a better outcome, why are you not willing to spend 3 months of your life doing the same? is it because you don't think that it'll work?

[pancakes3]

I wonder how many people who have gotten into T14 universities have actually done what you have and what you're suggesting that I do. Your answer, in a nutshell, is "you studied hard, now study more and 'live this exam', make this the focus and sole purpose of your life until you finally break that 170 barrier". I could be wrong, but I sincerely believe that I've already studied more than the average T14 student. Members can correct me on this. And while I applaud your mental fortitude and devotion, I will say that it is not how I hope to spend the next few years. Not to mention that you make the assumption that because you did this, that I can pull it off too since it has proven to work for you. You also make the assumption that since I did well at a "top UG" that I have the aptitude. Then you equal aptitude with IQ and correlate that to LSAT score. A big leap. Since we both believe that IQ is correlated to LSAT score, you should at least recognize that we have different IQs and that possibly yours is a lot higher than mine, thus making you achieve a higher score on the LSAT, and not necessarily owing to the study methods that you hope I espouse. Study harder is all too easy to say, but we're different people with different circumstances; I cannot just drop everything and make this commitment on a leap of faith.

1) If you're not willing to "live this exam" and get in the 90th percentile of LSAT takers, you're going to have a tough time living multiple exams come law school at temple when you're trying to get in the 90th percentile of Temple students.

2) It's entirely irrelevant how much more or less work you put in than the average T14 student. You don't get A's for effort at this stage in life.

3) Study more, don't study more, it's really up to you. I think if you go over the posts one by one, the overwhelming advice is 1 sided but if you're determined to stick to your guns, then it's your prerogative. It doesn't bode well for you even at Temple though, when the advice all around you steering you towards one action but you dismissing it and cherrypicking justifications for your own intuition.

[ilikebaseball]

I wonder how many people who have gotten into T14 universities have actually done what you have and what you're suggesting that I do. Your answer, in a nutshell, is "you studied hard, now study more and 'live this exam', make this the focus and sole purpose of your life until you finally break that 170 barrier". I could be wrong, but I sincerely believe that I've already studied more than the average T14 student. Members can correct me on this. And while I applaud your mental fortitude and devotion, I will say that it is not how I hope to spend the next few years. Not to mention that you make the assumption that because you did this, that I can pull it off too since it has proven to work for you. You also make the assumption that since I did well at a "top UG" that I have the aptitude. Then you equal aptitude with IQ and correlate that to LSAT score. A big leap. Since we both believe that IQ is correlated to LSAT score, you should at least recognize that we have different IQs and that possibly yours is a lot higher than mine, thus making you achieve a higher score on the LSAT, and not necessarily owing to the study methods that you hope I espouse. Study harder is all too easy to say, but we're different people with different circumstances; I cannot just drop everything and make this commitment on a leap of faith.

1) If you're not willing to "live this exam" and get in the 90th percentile of LSAT takers, you're going to have a tough time living multiple exams come law school at temple when you're trying to get in the 90th percentile of Temple students.

2) It's entirely irrelevant how much more or less work you put in than the average T14 student. You don't get A's for effort at this stage in life.

3) Study more, don't study more, it's really up to you. I think if you go over the posts one by one, the overwhelming advice is 1 sided but if you're determined to stick to your guns, then it's your prerogative. It doesn't bode well for you even at Temple though, when the advice all around you steering you towards one action but you dismissing it and cherrypicking justifications for your own intuition.

[NYSprague]

OP is willing to throw away his past hard work and accomplishments and seriously risk his financial future because he doesn't want to study correctly for the LSAT.

I'm sure OP assumes he will be top of his class at temple, so it won't matter. Why study hard for a learnable test when you can probably get into a bad school and do well. He doesn't understand the curve, employment or much else about the process.

You have very poor judgement OP.

It's true that not every T14 student has to study that much for the exam, but there are people who do. I'm not sure why it matters to you that other people are just naturally better than you are at law games or why that should keep you from studying to improve.


At the very least, you've been given good advice. What you decide is up to you.

[Clearly]

Stepping in to make a few points:
1) Don't overfocus on LG. It might feel like your biggest problem, but it's likely not. Your score indicates more missed points elsewhere. There simply aren't enough points in LG that only doing 3 of the 4 games would have you scoring where you did. Personal experience, games WERE biggest problem, I only did 3 on my first take too, ended up with 164.

2) This cycle I had a student with three lsat takes 3.78/162 high. She got offered a full ride/named scholly to Temple, declined it for a better option, because even for free the job prospects didn't justify it. Think about that...

[goldenboy514]

Stepping in to give my annecdotal evidence...From the philly area as well. Scored low (sub 160s) my first LSAT go around. I did not attend right out and decided to take a year off after college graduation. I devoted that year to the LSAT, and though I didn't score as well as many others here, I scored well enough to open up options. Increasing my LSAT in one year changed my options from:

Options before retake
Rutgers C@20k/yr scholly
Temple @10k/yr scholly
Didnt bother applying to Penn

Options after retake
Full scholly to Rutgers, Nova, Temple
Accepted with $ to Penn

I don't think im extraordinarily intelligent, and I would bet that given your UG compared to mine, your intellect is superior to mine. Instead of just being hammered with RETAKE, I thought it would be nice to see some hard evidence that pertains to you. If you like Temple and think you can do well there, by all means go for it. But at least save 60k and go for free.
PM me if you'd like

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

Look, I think we've gotten a bit off-topic here. I asked in my original post about whether Temple is worth it at around 80k (assuming I get no grants) and about my chances of employment after graduation at legal jobs paying a minimum 60k/yr. I was looking for anecdotes and observations. Few people actually addressed that.

Instead, I was immediately confronted by the "RETAKE faction", which became annoyed when I started to question their reasoning and is instead labeling me as someone too stubborn and too lazy to just "study harder and retake." Forcing you guys to substantiate your reasoning a bit more than 'retake, retake' can hardly be considered sticking to my guns or trying to justify a bad decision (i.e. going to Temple). I appreciate everyone's willingness to share their opinion here with me, but I mean, this is the first time I talk to you guys... I have no idea what your story is, what you currently do, where you're going to school, how well you did on your exam, where you work, etc.. Yet you seem disgruntled that I question your advice and you have an unreasonable expectation that I should take your word at face value, just because you are regular posters here? Do you always take everything people tell you at face value? More importantly, do you respond in this manner every time someone questions your judgment in law school? I'm simply asking questions to make the best decision for myself. You're under no obligation to answer or to "save me" from a horrible life decision, but I appreciate the concern. Additionally, I have no reason to root for Temple. In fact, your answers here have told me that if I don't get into a (much) better school (read: higher ranked), I would be better off (especially in this economy) just pursuing something else, especially since it seems that by going to Temple law I would undo my work in UG. The other day I was also reading a report here that there are twice as many lawyers for every job that is considered even remotely "legal" in some way. That is very worrisome.

Some are even accusing me that I'm not willing to put in the hard work and 'live this exam.' It went initially from 2-3 years, which I said that no, that I couldn't do this full time for that period, to now being only '2-3 months.' Now, that is something I can certainly do! I am already doing, but the consensus from the retake guys is that I'm not doing enough, so I will reconsider! Others are assuming that if I'm not willing to put in the work to do well in this exam, I'm not willing to put in the work to do well on exams in law school. That's a fair assumption, but it is a wrong one. I have traditionally been a poor standardized test-taker, but I do much better in situations where I'm surrounded by studious peers. In high school my SAT didn't even break the 25% for Penn. I applied ED, but they were on the fence about me, offered to interview me anyway, guess they liked me, and offered me a spot. I did reasonably well in college, but I won't go tooting my own horn here because it was in an area that most people consider "soft" and most employers out of college won't jump at you just because your BA GPA was relatively high, which is primarily my motivation for now seeking an advanced degree, one that offers much more specialization, and one that I believe I like, and that will offer me a stable income. Law is the degree I've identified. To be fair, I also like business, but I'm terrible at math and don't even want to consider what my GMAT score would look like and all the sacrifices needed to make to drop this now and go into that direction, especially since I already have my letters of recommendation for law school from professors as well as a general layout for the personal statement.

The last wrong assumption, and I have to address this one, because the poster completely fails to read the previous discussion, yet still feels like they are entitled to give advice in this 'mightier-than-thou' attitude, is this (deliberately misleading) idea that I somehow believe that if I go to Temple, I am going to easily be in the top 10% of the class, because I believe that I'm so much smarter than everyone that goes there. Oh dear... where to begin to even address this one. Well, apart from the fact that I specifically said in a previous post that it is "unlikely", yes "unlikely", that I would be in the top 10% at Temple, here's another few reasons why your assumption about me is blatantly misleading to everyone else in this forum, especially those who, like you, don't bother reading the discussion but feel that they can contribute. First of all, it is my belief that at a school like Temple, competition is even more cut-throat because their jobs and the debt they have amassed literally depends on whether or not they can get into the top 10% of the class. (Anecdotes from other posters here affirm this.) At a T14 school, rankings matter, but not nearly as much as at a Tier Two. Secondly, no matter how smart one believes one is in law school, there is absolutely no guarantee than one will end up in the top 10% of the class. That's the reality of law school. Much of how you are graded is arbitrary. Thirdly, I have read way too many articles about horror stories of individuals who went to third and fourth tier who thought that it would be a piece of cake to maintain their scholarship money as long as they had above an x GPA or an x Class Rank. Later they found out how hard it was to actually compete to fulfill this expectation, and so they ended up losing their scholarship money. They found out the hard way that even at a Tier 3 or 4 everyone, repeat EVERYONE, guns hard, if not harder than in better placed institutions. So in conclusion, contrary to what you say, I do understand much about the "curve" and "the process" in law school, in addition to these other factors I mention. Please, stop assuming falsehoods about me. You're not adding to the discussion, but rather contributing to this image of me as someone too stubborn to listen to reason from people who have been down this path before.

Thanks everyone for your advice. What I think I'll do now is head over to the exam tips forum and see what strategies I can dig up to improve my score, not only by "studying harder" but also studying smarter.

[chuckbass]

Good luck OP, that's definitely the right idea.

[objctnyrhnr]

Some are even accusing me that I'm not willing to put in the hard work and 'live this exam.' It went initially from 2-3 years, which I said that no, that I couldn't do this full time for that period, to now being only '2-3 months.' Now, that is something I can certainly do! I am already doing, but the consensus from the retake guys is that I'm not doing enough, so I will reconsider! Others are assuming that if I'm not willing to put in the work to do well in this exam, I'm not willing to put in the work to do well on exams in law school. That's a fair assumption, but it is a wrong one. I have traditionally been a poor standardized test-taker, but I do much better in situations where I'm surrounded by studious peers. In high school my SAT didn't even break the 25% for Penn. I applied ED, but they were on the fence about me, offered to interview me anyway, guess they liked me, and offered me a spot. I did reasonably well in college, but I won't go tooting my own horn here because it was in an area that most people consider "soft" and most employers out of college won't jump at you just because your BA GPA was relatively high, which is primarily my motivation for now seeking an advanced degree, one that offers much more specialization, and one that I believe I like, and that will offer me a stable income. Law is the degree I've identified. To be fair, I also like business, but I'm terrible at math and don't even want to consider what my GMAT score would look like and all the sacrifices needed to make to drop this now and go into that direction, especially since I already have my letters of recommendation for law school from professors as well as a general layout for the personal statement.
.

To clarify, and I thought that this was clear in my prior posts, 2-3 months FULL TIME , 2-3 years PART TIME (on top of college or a FT job). obviously that is approximate and only you can determine when you get your target score, but I thought it was worth clarifying that.

[pancakes3]

By hook, or by crook, through faulty assumptions or hurt feelings, all that matters is that the OP is retaking.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

By hook, or by crook, through faulty assumptions or hurt feelings, all that matters is that the OP is retaking.

The decision to retake was made long before I posted on this forum.
However, those who contributed through anecdotes put in perspective to me what it means to graduate from Temple law right now.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

Some are even accusing me that I'm not willing to put in the hard work and 'live this exam.' It went initially from 2-3 years, which I said that no, that I couldn't do this full time for that period, to now being only '2-3 months.' Now, that is something I can certainly do! I am already doing, but the consensus from the retake guys is that I'm not doing enough, so I will reconsider! Others are assuming that if I'm not willing to put in the work to do well in this exam, I'm not willing to put in the work to do well on exams in law school. That's a fair assumption, but it is a wrong one. I have traditionally been a poor standardized test-taker, but I do much better in situations where I'm surrounded by studious peers. In high school my SAT didn't even break the 25% for Penn. I applied ED, but they were on the fence about me, offered to interview me anyway, guess they liked me, and offered me a spot. I did reasonably well in college, but I won't go tooting my own horn here because it was in an area that most people consider "soft" and most employers out of college won't jump at you just because your BA GPA was relatively high, which is primarily my motivation for now seeking an advanced degree, one that offers much more specialization, and one that I believe I like, and that will offer me a stable income. Law is the degree I've identified. To be fair, I also like business, but I'm terrible at math and don't even want to consider what my GMAT score would look like and all the sacrifices needed to make to drop this now and go into that direction, especially since I already have my letters of recommendation for law school from professors as well as a general layout for the personal statement.
.

To clarify, and I thought that this was clear in my prior posts, 2-3 months FULL TIME , 2-3 years PART TIME (on top of college or a FT job). obviously that is approximate and only you can determine when you get your target score, but I thought it was worth clarifying that.

I understand that, and of course I understand that you're not making any guarantees for anything. Thanks for sharing your story with me, though. In your opinion, when you say "full time," how many hours daily are we talking about so I can organize my schedule a little? Also, if you had to recommend a study plan to someone in my circumstances what would your advice be? Thanks again.

[miles2go-b4Isleep]

Stepping in to give my annecdotal evidence...From the philly area as well. Scored low (sub 160s) my first LSAT go around. I did not attend right out and decided to take a year off after college graduation. I devoted that year to the LSAT, and though I didn't score as well as many others here, I scored well enough to open up options. Increasing my LSAT in one year changed my options from:

Options before retake
Rutgers C@20k/yr scholly
Temple @10k/yr scholly
Didnt bother applying to Penn

Options after retake
Full scholly to Rutgers, Nova, Temple
Accepted with $ to Penn

I don't think im extraordinarily intelligent, and I would bet that given your UG compared to mine, your intellect is superior to mine. Instead of just being hammered with RETAKE, I thought it would be nice to see some hard evidence that pertains to you. If you like Temple and think you can do well there, by all means go for it. But at least save 60k and go for free.
PM me if you'd like

Wow, that's a very motivational story. Thanks for sharing with me and congratulations! Penn is my dream school for many reasons, not least of which is the fact that I want to do a dual JD/MA in Spanish with the Lauder Institute. Do you mind sharing with me here or through PM what your score was after the Retake? It's cool if you'd rather not. I'm actually very interested to know what you think the reason was for the initial "low" score and what study regime you followed to improve it for the retake? Also, how do you like Penn?

[objctnyrhnr]

Some are even accusing me that I'm not willing to put in the hard work and 'live this exam.' It went initially from 2-3 years, which I said that no, that I couldn't do this full time for that period, to now being only '2-3 months.' Now, that is something I can certainly do! I am already doing, but the consensus from the retake guys is that I'm not doing enough, so I will reconsider! Others are assuming that if I'm not willing to put in the work to do well in this exam, I'm not willing to put in the work to do well on exams in law school. That's a fair assumption, but it is a wrong one. I have traditionally been a poor standardized test-taker, but I do much better in situations where I'm surrounded by studious peers. In high school my SAT didn't even break the 25% for Penn. I applied ED, but they were on the fence about me, offered to interview me anyway, guess they liked me, and offered me a spot. I did reasonably well in college, but I won't go tooting my own horn here because it was in an area that most people consider "soft" and most employers out of college won't jump at you just because your BA GPA was relatively high, which is primarily my motivation for now seeking an advanced degree, one that offers much more specialization, and one that I believe I like, and that will offer me a stable income. Law is the degree I've identified. To be fair, I also like business, but I'm terrible at math and don't even want to consider what my GMAT score would look like and all the sacrifices needed to make to drop this now and go into that direction, especially since I already have my letters of recommendation for law school from professors as well as a general layout for the personal statement.
.

To clarify, and I thought that this was clear in my prior posts, 2-3 months FULL TIME , 2-3 years PART TIME (on top of college or a FT job). obviously that is approximate and only you can determine when you get your target score, but I thought it was worth clarifying that.

I understand that, and of course I understand that you're not making any guarantees for anything. Thanks for sharing your story with me, though. In your opinion, when you say "full time," how many hours daily are we talking about so I can organize my schedule a little? Also, if you had to recommend a study plan to someone in my circumstances what would your advice be? Thanks again.

yeah i mean this is such a person-specific question. the gist is do not be doing anything else work-related. socialize a bit, work out a bit if that's something you do, but it should really be a study one half of the day, take the test for the other half of the day. every single day. and don't be afraid to use tests you've already used. they are still really helpful if it's been a while since you've used them...just be aware that there will be an inflation in your score.

let's say it takes 3 hours to do an LSAT. if you do 6-8 hour days every day for a couple months, you'll be good to go I think. the thing about LR and puzzles is that they start to blend together after a while in a good way. like you'll be applying the exact same logic that you vaguely remember previously applying in an argument...or you'll draw the exact same picture in a puzzle. just quantity quantity quantity. don't rest until you have the LG games down and almost have the LR down also.

once you get good at this new skill,, it will become fun. I know that sounds unrealistic and potentially very nerdy, but it's true because being good at anything legitimate is fun. feel free to PM me for more specific tips or whatever.

[TooOld4This]

OP, if you have been unable to find a job as a Fulbright Scholar who graduated summa from Penn, you absolutely should not consider going to law school unless you get into a T14. The T14 is really the only set of schools where there is a clear path to good jobs (and even there it is possible to strike out). The rest of the schools, except for a few students at the very top, create no clear path to employment. You will be in the same situation you are in now, except with a worse degree, more debt, and a narrower set of options. You are sitting on 4 of a kind. Don't go trading it in for a pair of nines and expect better options.

[star fox]

Thanks everyone for your advice. What I think I'll do now is head over to the exam tips forum and see what strategies I can dig up to improve my score, not only by "studying harder" but also studying smarter.

This is a good idea and when you get discouraged remember that every point counts when your GPA is that high in terms of getting better admissions offers (plus apps will decline again next year which should further lower the medians).