There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls Forum

[yadiermolina]

So lower t14 with a projected 100k or so debt (35k/yr + 30k total from family)--still fucked?

Possibly...

Well, the question is, do you really really want to be a lawyer?

Haha well perhaps just one" really."Honestly, if law school didn't cost so much and the profession weren't structurally in crisis, I'd have no hesitation. Yet it does and it is, so here we are.

ITE yes, it's what I want to do and it's the thing I'm best suited for. I hope most here embarking on this path feel similarly. And now, somewhat thanks to tls, my eyes are wide open. Count me in the 99% of 0Ls who thinks he is making the right decision, yet believes it's the wrong decision for most. Best of luck to all.

[Otunga]

So lower t14 with a projected 100k or so debt (35k/yr + 30k total from family)--still fucked?

Possibly...

Well, the question is, do you really really want to be a lawyer?

Haha well perhaps just one" really."Honestly, if law school didn't cost so much and the profession weren't structurally in crisis, I'd have no hesitation. Yet it does and it is, so here we are.

ITE yes, it's what I want to do and it's the thing I'm best suited for. I hope most here embarking on this path feel similarly. And now, somewhat thanks to tls, my eyes are wide open. Count me in the 99% of 0Ls who thinks he is making the right decision, yet believes it's the wrong decision for most. Best of luck to all.

What's the reason that it's what suits you best? I mean, I think that could be true for many, but it's not adequate on its own to justify going to law school.

[sublime]

..

[star fox]

I've never understood the idea that because fewer people are going this is a good time to attend.

Think why it is that people are fleeing law for other careers.

There are too few jobs and school is too expensive.

My understanding was more that because there are less attending, it is a good time to get an offer that makes attending make sense financially.

Yeah I know in my personal case, less people going now compared to three years ago significantly changed the numbers game favorably.

[NYSprague]

I've never understood the idea that because fewer people are going this is a good time to attend.

Think why it is that people are fleeing law for other careers.

There are too few jobs and school is too expensive.

My understanding was more that because there are less attending, it is a good time to get an offer that makes attending make sense financially.

Yes, cheaper is good. But there aren't more jobs. I've seen people think that fewer people mean more jobs. The job market doesn't increase because fewer students attend.

[smaug_]

I've never understood the idea that because fewer people are going this is a good time to attend.

Think why it is that people are fleeing law for other careers.

There are too few jobs and school is too expensive.

My understanding was more that because there are less attending, it is a good time to get an offer that makes attending make sense financially.

Yes, cheaper is good. But there aren't more jobs.

... but there are fewer candidates for those jobs

ETA: not defending the original argument, just explaining why you're not getting it

[NYSprague]

^^^^
But the number of people with strong credentials will remain about the same. The only benefit is that you don't have to get a job to repay debt.

[sublime]

..

[smaug_]

^^^^
But the number of people with strong credentials will remain about the same. The only benefit is that you don't have to get a job to repay debt.

Yeah, no. Regardless, there's still a surplus of qualified applicants, so I agree with you, but with T14 school making meaningful cuts to class sizes, the number of people with strong credentials has gone down.

[NYSprague]

^^^^
But the number of people with strong credentials will remain about the same. The only benefit is that you don't have to get a job to repay debt.

Yeah, no. Regardless, there's still a surplus of qualified applicants, so I agree with you, but with T14 school making meaningful cuts to class sizes, the number of people with strong credentials has gone down.

So the below median person at Michigan will get a better job or any job because there are fewer people? I don't see that happening. The top people were doing basically ok already.

How many T14 grads are there now?

[A. Nony Mouse]

^^^^
But the number of people with strong credentials will remain about the same. The only benefit is that you don't have to get a job to repay debt.

Yeah, no. Regardless, there's still a surplus of qualified applicants, so I agree with you, but with T14 school making meaningful cuts to class sizes, the number of people with strong credentials has gone down.

Weren't most schools making cuts to class sizes outside the T14?

[spleenworship]

^^^^
But the number of people with strong credentials will remain about the same. The only benefit is that you don't have to get a job to repay debt.

Yeah, no. Regardless, there's still a surplus of qualified applicants, so I agree with you, but with T14 school making meaningful cuts to class sizes, the number of people with strong credentials has gone down.

Weren't most schools making cuts to class sizes outside the T14?

Some were. Others actually increased class sizes, lol.

[NYSprague]

I realize that I don't know how many people will be in law school in the fall. I still think about half of them shouldn't go.

[A. Nony Mouse]

^^^^
But the number of people with strong credentials will remain about the same. The only benefit is that you don't have to get a job to repay debt.

Yeah, no. Regardless, there's still a surplus of qualified applicants, so I agree with you, but with T14 school making meaningful cuts to class sizes, the number of people with strong credentials has gone down.

Weren't most schools making cuts to class sizes outside the T14?

Some were. Others actually increased class sizes, lol.

Cuz it's a GREAT time to go to law school!

[NYSprague]

I skimmed an article that predicts about 38,390 grads in 2017 on the faculty lounge. I don't know if that is accurate.

http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2014/04 ... -2018.html

[smaug_]

Weren't most schools making cuts to class sizes outside the T14?

I'm sure more schools made cuts outside of the T14 because there are only 14 law schools in the T14.

I just know that here at Columbia they made (seemingly permanent) 10%ish cut to class size.

So the below median person at Michigan will get a better job or any job because there are fewer people? I don't see that happening. The top people were doing basically ok already.

How many T14 grads are there now?

top people weren't (and aren't) always doing OK, but I think the logic is that Cadwalader needs x number of bodies each year and they're going to need to reach a little farther than they would before or whatever.

breaks down when a firm is willing to take in more laterals/willing to be more leanly staffed rather than hire someone they consider a dud

[spleenworship]

I skimmed an article that predicts about 38,390 grads in 2017 on the faculty lounge. I don't know if that is accurate.

That would be about a 6,000 decrease from my class. If our numbers were like last year's that means only 14,000 grads without jobs in 2017.

[NYSprague]

Weren't most schools making cuts to class sizes outside the T14?

I'm sure more schools made cuts outside of the T14 because there are only 14 law schools in the T14.

I just know that here at Columbia they made (seemingly permanent) 10%ish cut to class size.

So the below median person at Michigan will get a better job or any job because there are fewer people? I don't see that happening. The top people were doing basically ok already.

How many T14 grads are there now?

top people weren't (and aren't) always doing OK, but I think the logic is that Cadwalader needs x number of bodies each year and they're going to need to reach a little farther than they would before or whatever.

breaks down when a firm is willing to take in more laterals/willing to be more leanly staffed rather than hire someone they consider a dud

It will be interesting to see what happens. I don't think that will be the result, but maybe it will help a handful of people. It isn't as if grades have ever been the sole hiring criteria.

I remember posting about firm class size, which is up at some firms and down at others. My firm worldwide still has a smaller summer class than we had in New York pre-recession.

Just doesn't seem to be a great argument for going to law school now. Having smaller debt is a positive reason. But improved employment chances seems like an unsupported argument.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Weren't most schools making cuts to class sizes outside the T14?

I'm sure more schools made cuts outside of the T14 because there are only 14 law schools in the T14.

I just know that here at Columbia they made (seemingly permanent) 10%ish cut to class size.

Perhaps I should have been more precise: I had only heard of non-T14s cutting classes. Thank you for the Columbia example; it's the only T14 I've heard of so far.

[NYSprague]

Weren't most schools making cuts to class sizes outside the T14?

I'm sure more schools made cuts outside of the T14 because there are only 14 law schools in the T14.

I just know that here at Columbia they made (seemingly permanent) 10%ish cut to class size.

Perhaps I should have been more precise: I had only heard of non-T14s cutting classes. Thank you for the Columbia example; it's the only T14 I've heard of so far.

Michigan. I read some posts about a smaller class size in one of their threads.

[star fox]

Number on left is 1Ls in Fall 2010, number on right is 1Ls in Fall 2013

Yale: 205 -> 199
Stanford: 180 -> 179
Harvard: 561 -> 568
Chicago: 205 -> 196
Columbia: 404 -> 352
NYU: 476 -> 437
Penn: 250 -> 251
Virginia: 368 -> 330
Michigan: 376 -> 315
Cal-Berkely: 286 -> 284
Duke: 238 -> 209
Northwestern: 274 -> 229
Cornell: 205 -> 193
Georgetown: 591 -> 544

Total T14 1Ls 2010: 4619
Total T14 1Ls 2013: 4286

Source is law school transparency school reports.

[Nightingale]

And just outside the T14, UT has cut class sizes by about 100 since 2010/2011.

[NYSprague]

The cuts in class size have been made to maintain medians. Is that right? Not directly in response to cost or employment data. It's because of fewer people with high numbers attending?

[star fox]

The cuts in class size have been made to maintain medians. Is that right? Not directly in response to cost or employment data. It's because of fewer people with high numbers attending?

I'd say this is a safe assumption. Of course, the schools frame it as being about concern for students.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Number on left is 1Ls in Fall 2010, number on right is 1Ls in Fall 2013

Yale: 205 -> 199
Stanford: 180 -> 179
Harvard: 561 -> 568
Chicago: 205 -> 196
Columbia: 404 -> 352
NYU: 476 -> 437
Penn: 250 -> 251
Virginia: 368 -> 330
Michigan: 376 -> 315
Cal-Berkely: 286 -> 284
Duke: 238 -> 209
Northwestern: 274 -> 229
Cornell: 205 -> 193
Georgetown: 591 -> 544

Total T14 1Ls 2010: 4619
Total T14 1Ls 2013: 4286

Source is law school transparency school reports.

Thanks for posting this. Clearly I'm not up on my T14s.