Yell at me and tell me to pick UVA (Dillard) over H (off WL) Forum

[jrf12886]

So many people hate being a lawyer that the ability to just not give a fuck and do something different is invaluable.

The extra $375,000 is also nice if you end up liking being a lawyer.

Where is this extra $375K coming from? For the OP, isn't the difference between HLS and UVA the cost of tuition? That's a lot--it's about $160K--but it's not as much as is being hinted at ITT.

OP: The smarter choice is UVA. No one seems to realize how much debt sucks until they actually have to live with it. Having said that, HLS will give you a shot at some things (in PI and elsewhere) that UVA likely won't. I don't think it's $160K worth of difference, but it is a real difference.

I agree. I think people are overestimating the COA. Tuition will be about $160k-170k depending annual increases. Housing in Cambridge is expensive, but you can reduce it by living farther away from campus or with roommates (I paid 750/mo for my room in Somerville). Assume $1k/month for rent and utilities which puts the total at $36k (I don't know what rent is like in Charlottesville, but conservatively let's say it's about half) so the extra housing cost is about $18k. Everything else (food, entertainment, furniture, emergencies) would be incurred even if you go to UVA. So the extra cost is around $180-190k. That's still a lot of money, and I'm not sure what I'd do in your position, but it's a nice problem to have.

[cotiger]

So many people hate being a lawyer that the ability to just not give a fuck and do something different is invaluable.

The extra $375,000 is also nice if you end up liking being a lawyer.

Where is this extra $375K coming from? For the OP, isn't the difference between HLS and UVA the cost of tuition? That's a lot--it's about $160K--but it's not as much as is being hinted at ITT.

OP: The smarter choice is UVA. No one seems to realize how much debt sucks until they actually have to live with it. Having said that, HLS will give you a shot at some things (in PI and elsewhere) that UVA likely won't. I don't think it's $160K worth of difference, but it is a real difference.

I agree. I think people are overestimating the COA. Tuition will be about $160k-170k depending annual increases. Housing in Cambridge is expensive, but you can reduce it by living farther away from campus or with roommates (I paid 750/mo for my room in Somerville). Assume $1k/month for rent and utilities which puts the total at $36k (I don't know what rent is like in Charlottesville, but I assume it's much less). Everything else (food, entertainment, furniture, emergencies) would be incurred even if you go to UVA. So the extra cost is around $200-210k. That's still a lot of money, and I'm not sure what I'd do in your position, but it's a nice problem to have.

You're still missing interest. And the fact that it takes a long time to pay back that much debt, all the while even more interest continues to pile on.

A frugal budget in Cambridge of 20k/yr will still leave you with 280k debt at graduation. That's 410k paid over 10 years of repayment, and even more if you decide to clerk.

A Charlottesville budget of 17k/yr will leave you with 60k debt at graduation. You could pay that off in a year and a half if at a firm, or you could pay 80k over 10 years.

That's a cost difference of 330-350k.

[NYSprague]

So many people hate being a lawyer that the ability to just not give a fuck and do something different is invaluable.

The extra $375,000 is also nice if you end up liking being a lawyer.

Where is this extra $375K coming from? For the OP, isn't the difference between HLS and UVA the cost of tuition? That's a lot--it's about $160K--but it's not as much as is being hinted at ITT.

OP: The smarter choice is UVA. No one seems to realize how much debt sucks until they actually have to live with it. Having said that, HLS will give you a shot at some things (in PI and elsewhere) that UVA likely won't. I don't think it's $160K worth of difference, but it is a real difference.

I agree. I think people are overestimating the COA. Tuition will be about $160k-170k depending annual increases. Housing in Cambridge is expensive, but you can reduce it by living farther away from campus or with roommates (I paid 750/mo for my room in Somerville). Assume $1k/month for rent and utilities which puts the total at $36k (I don't know what rent is like in Charlottesville, but conservatively let's say it's about half) so the extra housing cost is about $18k. Everything else (food, entertainment, furniture, emergencies) would be incurred even if you go to UVA. So the extra cost is around $180-190k. That's still a lot of money, and I'm not sure what I'd do in your position, but it's a nice problem to have.

Dillard is full tuition plus fees plus $5,000 stipend the first year and stipend in 2nd and 3rd year based on financial info. He just won't need to borrow much at all. Plus he can get other income from summer jobs or fellowships.

[cotiger]

Also, note the costs that are being mentioned are only explicit costs. There's also opportunity costs. That extra 35k/yr you're not paying to your loans is presumably not just sitting there. It's hopefully actually making money for you, making the effect on your bottom line even greater.

Part of it is also presumably going towards your quality of life.

[Mack.Hambleton]

So many people hate being a lawyer that the ability to just not give a fuck and do something different is invaluable.

The extra $375,000 is also nice if you end up liking being a lawyer.

Where is this extra $375K coming from? For the OP, isn't the difference between HLS and UVA the cost of tuition? That's a lot--it's about $160K--but it's not as much as is being hinted at ITT.

OP: The smarter choice is UVA. No one seems to realize how much debt sucks until they actually have to live with it. Having said that, HLS will give you a shot at some things (in PI and elsewhere) that UVA likely won't. I don't think it's $160K worth of difference, but it is a real difference.

I agree. I think people are overestimating the COA. Tuition will be about $160k-170k depending annual increases. Housing in Cambridge is expensive, but you can reduce it by living farther away from campus or with roommates (I paid 750/mo for my room in Somerville). Assume $1k/month for rent and utilities which puts the total at $36k (I don't know what rent is like in Charlottesville, but conservatively let's say it's about half) so the extra housing cost is about $18k. Everything else (food, entertainment, furniture, emergencies) would be incurred even if you go to UVA. So the extra cost is around $180-190k. That's still a lot of money, and I'm not sure what I'd do in your position, but it's a nice problem to have.

Dillard is full tuition plus fees plus $5,000 stipend the first year and stipend in 2nd and 3rd year based on financial info. He just won't need to borrow much at all. Plus he can get other income from summer jobs or fellowships.

There's no stipend

[NYSprague]

^^^
I have no idea where I read that it had a stipend. I googled it quickly and must have found an old page on the UVA website.
Edit:
Lol. Turns out it was from 1997.
http://www.virginia.edu/registrar/recor ... 0-toc.html

Hardy Cross Dillard, nominated by a subcommittee of the Admissions Committee and selected by the Foundation Selection Committee from among applicants with highest overall admissions credentials who have demonstrated financial need. These scholarships provide, for each of the three years in the Law School, full payment of all tuition and fees, including increases which take place during the three years, plus an annual stipend, which is designed to cover a substantial portion of living and educational expenses. In the first year of law school, the stipend is $5,000 for all Dillard scholars. During the second and third years, the amount of the stipend is determined by a review of the amount of need a student demonstrates in documents filed with the Financial Aid Office. This scholarship is presently the largest that the Law School awards.

Not sure why that was a top result of my google search. But definitely my bad.

For fun:
http://www.virginia.edu/registrar/recor ... 0-3.2.html
COA instate in 1997 was about $25,000.

Tuition instate was just under $14,000. Out of state was just under $20,000.

[TheSpanishMain]

UVA is obviously a PC answer.

But you live only once. I'd take Harvard.

YOLO! So spend the entire time in debt!

[rpupkin]

A frugal budget in Cambridge of 20k/yr will still leave you with 280k debt at graduation. That's 410k paid over 10 years of repayment, and even more if you decide to clerk.

A Charlottesville budget of 17k/yr will leave you with 60k debt at graduation. You could pay that off in a year and a half if at a firm, or you could pay 80k over 10 years.

I'm still missing something. I don't see how the difference ends up being $220K at graduation. If you're assuming a COA difference of $3K/yr, and if HLS tuition is currently $55K/yr, wouldn't the total difference over three years be (55*3) + (3*3), or about $175K? Is someone projecting that HLS is going to jack up its tuition to $80K/yr in 2016 and 2017? Or is $45K of additional interest really going to accumulate over the three years that the OP is in school?

Also, note the costs that are being mentioned are only explicit costs. There's also opportunity costs. That extra 35k/yr you're not paying to your loans is presumably not just sitting there. It's hopefully actually making money for you, making the effect on your bottom line even greater.

That's true. But it's also true that inflation during the repayment period offsets some of the cost of the interest. Yeah, inflation has mostly been (and will likely remain) below the OP's interest rate, but it's not really accurate to isolate the interest payments over the years and then represent that as a "cost" independent of inflation, while at the same time adding in lost opportunity costs from missed investments.

Part of it is also presumably going towards your quality of life.

Yes, of course. Were it otherwise, why would anyone care about debt at all?

Look, however you cut it, OP will have to take on a lot more debt to attend HLS. And, as I said earlier, I think the smart choice is UVA. But it does seem like folks are exaggerating the debt consequences of choosing HLS here.

[brazleton]

.

[NYSprague]

I think what always ends up being unhelpful about these threads is the absolutism. Costs equal, this forum would say someone was nuts to go to UVA over H. Therefore, OP has to take into consideration why H is the better school and what it means to walk away from that opportunity. I would take the money, but trust me, if you are telling OP that this is a no-brainier, you are getting tuned out. So let's be honest, there is a cost to turning down Harvard and it is real. It just might not be worth 250k. Prestige blinders is not the only reason for OP to be hesitant.

What are you talking about?

[brazleton]

.

[NYSprague]

I think what always ends up being unhelpful about these threads is the absolutism. Costs equal, this forum would say someone was nuts to go to UVA over H. Therefore, OP has to take into consideration why H is the better school and what it means to walk away from that opportunity. I would take the money, but trust me, if you are telling OP that this is a no-brainier, you are getting tuned out. So let's be honest, there is a cost to turning down Harvard and it is real. It just might not be worth 250k. Prestige blinders is not the only reason for OP to be hesitant.

What are you talking about?

It was a rational and coherent thought. Try reading again.

I didn't see any explanation of why there is a cost to turning down Harvard other than people here would think it is a bad idea because Harvard "is the better school."

[jingosaur]

I'm one of the biggest YHS over $$$ at other T14s people on this forum and in your situation, UVA is the better option.

With financial aid, I'm sure you won't come out owing $300k at HLS, but it's still too risky of a proposition (and we don't know your financial situation).

EDIT: Holy shit, I can't believe so many people picked HLS here. I bet a lot of them didn't read the OP since for a typical law school applicant in the middle of the cycle with a typical financial situation for a strong law school applicant, HLS could easily be the better option.

[brazleton]

.

[$$$$$$]

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could possibly choose Harvard over UVA here. UVA for essentially free is one of the best outcomes you can get outside of T-6 for free. My friends that went to HLS ended up in the same firms as those that went to MVP, have the same or way more debt, are are just as miserable. You got lucky with the Dillard, take that an run.

[truckstop]

So I see that TLS hasn't rid the world of 0L bigdumb yet

Don't attack the OP for asking a legitimate question in the on-topic forums. It's not an easy decision, especially once you are in that position.

I dunno, IMO it's a pretty simple decision unless you've got prestige blinders on. And if you've got that, why even ask? Just go to Harvard.

1. It may not be a simple decision when you are in OP's situation. Assuming that people are voting legitimately, there are a decent amount of votes for the Harvard option. Plus, OP presumably just got off a waitlist and has to make a decision in a short amount of time.
2. Even if it were a really simple decision, TLS on-topic forums are exactly the place to confirm that you are making the right decision.

Thank you, ph14.

Clearly cotiger didn't actually read anything I wrote (or the title of the post). I know that UVA is the responsible decision. It just helps to have confirmation from other people that I'm doing the right thing (especially when non-law people in my life don't understand why I would possibly turn down Harvard). I really didn't think it would be a hard decision to say no to Harvard if I got in off the wait list without receiving financial aid information (I also didn't think it likely at all that I would get in, so maybe I just underestimated how difficult it would actually be), but it's definitely difficult (again, especially when non-law people think/tell me I'd be crazy not to go to Harvard).

[Danger Zone]

I like how OP split UVA into two choices so that the percent picking Harvard could appear artificially inflated relative to the other two.

[truckstop]

If it helps, OP, I turned it down for substantially less than a full ride - still going to have ~$100k debt from UG and LS COA - and I don't regret that particular decision for a second. I already get anxious about what will effectively be $150k or more by the time I repay it; if I had $400k+ hanging over my head I would probably wake up in a cold sweat every night, fancy degree be damned.

No amount of prestige is worth that much loss of freedom and sound sleep. Be wise.

Thank you. I think I would feel the same way with that much debt. I just needed to be reminded by people who know about this stuff that UVA is 100% the right call.

[ymmv]

I like how OP split UVA into two choices so that the percent picking Harvard could appear artificially inflated relative to the other two.

Given the phrasing and his other posts, I think OP is smart enough to calculate options 1 and 3 in tandem.

[NYSprague]

If it helps, OP, I turned it down for substantially less than a full ride - still going to have ~$100k debt from UG and LS COA - and I don't regret that particular decision for a second. I already get anxious about what will effectively be $150k or more by the time I repay it; if I had $400k+ hanging over my head I would probably wake up in a cold sweat every night, fancy degree be damned.

No amount of prestige is worth that much loss of freedom and sound sleep. Be wise.

Thank you. I think I would feel the same way with that much debt. I just needed to be reminded by people who know about this stuff that UVA is 100% the right call.

What is your hesitation? Going to Harvard would put you in a difficult and avoidable financial situation for at least a decade.

Is this hesitation more than lay prestige? Or wishful thinking?

[Danger Zone]

I like how OP split UVA into two choices so that the percent picking Harvard could appear artificially inflated relative to the other two.

Given the phrasing and his other posts, I think OP is smart enough to calculate options 1 and 3 in tandem.

I'm sure he is. I just worry about the legions of 0Ls who will think this was a close choice.

[rpupkin]

If it helps, OP, I turned it down for substantially less than a full ride - still going to have ~$100k debt from UG and LS COA - and I don't regret that particular decision for a second. I already get anxious about what will effectively be $150k or more by the time I repay it; if I had $400k+ hanging over my head I would probably wake up in a cold sweat every night, fancy degree be damned.

No amount of prestige is worth that much loss of freedom and sound sleep. Be wise.

Thank you. I think I would feel the same way with that much debt. I just needed to be reminded by people who know about this stuff that UVA is 100% the right call.

What is your hesitation? Going to Harvard would put you in a difficult and avoidable financial situation for at least a decade.

Is this hesitation more than lay prestige? Or wishful thinking?

Are those in the UVA camp such absolutist simpletons that they actually think that there are no substantive differences between UVA and HLS? Or are they just exaggerating for effect? Folks are acting like "prestige" is the only reason anyone would choose HLS over UVA.

As another poster observed, HLS gives you more opportunities in government and PI. (Remember, the OP isn't interested in big law.) HLS gives you more portability. And if you end up below median, HLS gives you a better shot at a decent paying job; a not insignificant percentage of UVA's class ends up unemployed (or effectively unemployed) nine months out. Is that difference work $160K - $190K? I don't think do. But it's not a pointless question.

[NYSprague]

I wanted OP to articulate his reasons.

[NYSprague]

It looks like about 3 people get a Dillard every year. If OP turns it down, I suppose it will go to someone else.

[cotiger]

I'm still missing something. I don't see how the difference ends up being $220K at graduation. If you're assuming a COA difference of $3K/yr, and if HLS tuition is currently $55K/yr, wouldn't the total difference over three years be (55*3) + (3*3), or about $175K? Is someone projecting that HLS is going to jack up its tuition to $80K/yr in 2016 and 2017? Or is $45K of additional interest really going to accumulate over the three years that the OP is in school?

Tuition increases at like 5% per year at Harvard, so it's 55k, 58k, 61k. By the start of repayment, yeah, there's 45k of interest accumulated. It's a bitch.

Go check out the LS22 debt calculator that's stickied at the top of the page if you want to run numbers yourself.

That's true. But it's also true that inflation during the repayment period offsets some of the cost of the interest. Yeah, inflation has mostly been (and will likely remain) below the OP's interest rate, but it's not really accurate to isolate the interest payments over the years and then represent that as a "cost" independent of inflation, while at the same time adding in lost opportunity costs from missed investments.

True, the 330-350k extra is not in constant dollars. But also keep in mind that if there's any significant inflation (or even just economic improvement) around the corner, OP could be looking at 11% rates on his loans instead of 7%. Also, I dunno why the fact that the present value of that 330-350k is slightly less has any bearing on the opportunity cost of investments.

Let's just say they cancel out. So roughly 340k total deficit in present dollars.

To be fair, I am possibly overstating the cost differential due to lipp. If OP gets that DC DOJ job, third year iirc is 104k, which would only be required to pay 22k towards loans. There's still additional pay raises, of course, but he wouldn't be paying the full 41k/yr.