International Human Rights is not as cool as you think Forum

[quijotesca1011]

Because one is 100x more important than the other in terms of getting the job.

That still doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. There is no reason you can't go to a prestigious university and work at a well-renowned agency abroad (be it a IOG or a prestigious national entity). I'm not saying that's easy but there are plenty of people within IHR who do it.

If you had to choose a super prestigious job or an unknown field placement that's a different question. But there's no reason to assume that's the case.

[worldtraveler]

Because one is 100x more important than the other in terms of getting the job.

That still doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. There is no reason you can't go to a prestigious university and work at a well-renowned agency abroad (be it a IOG or a prestigious national entity). I'm not saying that's easy but there are plenty of people within IHR who do it.

If you had to choose a super prestigious job or an unknown field placement that's a different question. But there's no reason to assume that's the case.

ok what exactly are you arguing? that field work is important to be a good IHR attorney? Yeah, I get that and agree with you, but the people in charge have determined there are far more important criteria.

[quijotesca1011]

Because one is 100x more important than the other in terms of getting the job.

That still doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. There is no reason you can't go to a prestigious university and work at a well-renowned agency abroad (be it a IOG or a prestigious national entity). I'm not saying that's easy but there are plenty of people within IHR who do it.

If you had to choose a super prestigious job or an unknown field placement that's a different question. But there's no reason to assume that's the case.

ok what exactly are you arguing? that field work is important to be a good IHR attorney? Yeah, I get that and agree with you, but the people in charge have determined there are far more important criteria.

I'm trying to understand why you think field world precludes you from fulfilling those criteria...and/or why you argue field work is somehow Inherently not prestigious enough

[worldtraveler]

Because one is 100x more important than the other in terms of getting the job.

That still doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. There is no reason you can't go to a prestigious university and work at a well-renowned agency abroad (be it a IOG or a prestigious national entity). I'm not saying that's easy but there are plenty of people within IHR who do it.

If you had to choose a super prestigious job or an unknown field placement that's a different question. But there's no reason to assume that's the case.

ok what exactly are you arguing? that field work is important to be a good IHR attorney? Yeah, I get that and agree with you, but the people in charge have determined there are far more important criteria.

I'm trying to understand why you think field world precludes you from fulfilling those criteria

I didn't. I'm saying the other criteria are way more important in terms of breaking into the field, unless you want to be a field person.

I said you are a field person or an office personin your job. Once you are in there is not a lot of overlap. I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying.

[quijotesca1011]

I didn't. I'm saying the other criteria are way more important in terms of breaking into the field, unless you want to be a field person.

I said you are a field person or an office personin your job. Once you are in there is not a lot of overlap. I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying.

I do understand thank you. I don't know why these threads always have to devolve into condescension - I can read, and I have office experience. I understand that office work wil mostly be office work and indeed I think that's better than bopping in and out of countries. But we are talking about a whole career - not a single job - and there's no reason that career can't exist of field experience and office experience.

The original question was:

is there anything in between spending your entire career on connecticut ave. and spending your entire career in cameroon?

it seems that a lot of the people wanting international human rights have this idea that they'll fly to belgium/south africa for a month-long law thing once or twice a year.

I think there are plenty of in betweens. Yes, each posting will probably be one or another. But I fail to see why you can't have both types of postings if your career, particularly as from what I have seen starting in field work and moving to international centers (i.e. Geneva, NY, Washington) doesn't seem all that outlandish or uncommon.

I was saying that

a) I don't know what these mysterious criteria are that you seem to insist that you couldn't fulfill them if you take a field post initially

and b) yes, as we have already agreed, that that field work serves you to be much better at your job, even if it's in an office. And that it IHR that's really important, because to take a job for prestige and then impose American/European values in a region because you have little to no understanding of the area is highly problematic (taking this to it's extreme). Could people gain understanding of areas otherwise? yes, but maybe not as deep. And yes, there are some positions where field experience won't be super helpful because it's hyper technical. But if we agree that field work generally makes you better at your job, if you want to do IHR, I don't see why it wouldn't behoove you to seek it out. Because I fail to see how it somehow makes your résumé less prestigious

[bizzike]

I think what the OP has hinted at but hasn't been addressed directly is the about of nepotism with these kinds of jobs. Went to yale? Top 5%. Hey guess what, the other person interviewing is the president's daughter.

Guess who writes a lot of checks to women's right's IHR/PI/NGO-- Jay Leno's wife. Guess who gets to decide who is hired: Jay Leno's wife.

Want to work in the State Dept., oh right, the secretary of state has a niece at GWU with below median grades, sorry bout that.

I respect and appreciate the individuals who want do this with their careers, but be cognizant of the kinds of people who are applying. No, it's not fair, but the number of people with significant DC connections AND top grades AND significant w/e will win the vast majority of the time.

[Total Litigator]

Who the hell is hcrimson2014 anyways.

I'm not reading those long ass posts until I see some credentials.

Sounds a lot like an international studies 0L.

ITT: 0L's tell the only guy that got an international PI law job how to get an international PI law job.

[timbs4339]

Is this like revenge of the dumb 0L week or something?

[worldtraveler]

I think what the OP has hinted at but hasn't been addressed directly is the about of nepotism with these kinds of jobs. Went to yale? Top 5%. Hey guess what, the other person interviewing is the president's daughter.

Guess who writes a lot of checks to women's right's IHR/PI/NGO-- Jay Leno's wife. Guess who gets to decide who is hired: Jay Leno's wife.

Want to work in the State Dept., oh right, the secretary of state has a niece at GWU with below median grades, sorry bout that.

I respect and appreciate the individuals who want do this with their careers, but be cognizant of the kinds of people who are applying. No, it's not fair, but the number of people with significant DC connections AND top grades AND significant w/e will win the vast majority of the time.

Tons of nepotism, yes (although I don't think it's quite that dire).

Also, most of the credentials you need require you to be rich. There are not many IHR attorneys who grew up working class. You need so many unpaid internships, language classes, expensive degrees. It all adds up.

And one thing that perhaps I did not make clear enough is that there are generally two kinds of people: people who can spend 60 hours a week staring at a computer screen and researching law in 5 different countries and 5 different languages, and people who willingly spend a week travelling in a canoe to get to a remote area to interview refugees. Those are very rarely the same people. You are not going to go back and forth between those kinds of jobs unless you're some special crazy person.

Yes it's possible, although unlikely, to have a career where you do it all. The only field people I know who gave up the field did so for family or health reasons beyond their control. You really shouldn't count on it and chances are you only want to do, or are capable of doing, one of the two anyway.

I'm in a HQ office right now, and leaving for a field placement. I won't accept another HQ placement no matter how awesome it sounds. I got insanely lucky to even be able to try an office posting and am even luckier to leave it.

[Splitter1415]

Thanks for starting the thread, worldtraveler. I have a question. Are you at a big disadvantage if you grew up in a poor/working class family?

[worldtraveler]

Thanks for starting the thread, worldtraveler. I have a question. Are you at a big disadvantage if you grew up in a poor/working class family?

You are if you can't find a way to get the credentials you need. But I'm from that background and I managed to do it.

You also won't have family money to fall back on for bar study and for the low starting salary you'll likely have.

[Splitter1415]

Thank you. I think I might need to change my plan for the future. I've talked to some people who work in human right, but they are all from upper middle class. Maybe law school is not for me.

[quijotesca1011]

I think what the OP has hinted at but hasn't been addressed directly is the about of nepotism with these kinds of jobs. Went to yale? Top 5%. Hey guess what, the other person interviewing is the president's daughter.

Guess who writes a lot of checks to women's right's IHR/PI/NGO-- Jay Leno's wife. Guess who gets to decide who is hired: Jay Leno's wife.

Want to work in the State Dept., oh right, the secretary of state has a niece at GWU with below median grades, sorry bout that.

I respect and appreciate the individuals who want do this with their careers, but be cognizant of the kinds of people who are applying. No, it's not fair, but the number of people with significant DC connections AND top grades AND significant w/e will win the vast majority of the time.

Tons of nepotism, yes (although I don't think it's quite that dire).

Also, most of the credentials you need require you to be rich. There are not many IHR attorneys who grew up working class. You need so many unpaid internships, language classes, expensive degrees. It all adds up.

And one thing that perhaps I did not make clear enough is that there are generally two kinds of people: people who can spend 60 hours a week staring at a computer screen and researching law in 5 different countries and 5 different languages, and people who willingly spend a week travelling in a canoe to get to a remote area to interview refugees. Those are very rarely the same people. You are not going to go back and forth between those kinds of jobs unless you're some special crazy person.

Yes it's possible, although unlikely, to have a career where you do it all. The only field people I know who gave up the field did so for family or health reasons beyond their control. You really shouldn't count on it and chances are you only want to do, or are capable of doing, one of the two anyway.

I'm in a HQ office right now, and leaving for a field placement. I won't accept another HQ placement no matter how awesome it sounds. I got insanely lucky to even be able to try an office posting and am even luckier to leave it.

The nepotism and the fact that coming from a wealthy background helps are really important for people coming in (but a little outside of the in-office v. fieldwork debate, insofar as neither of those placements is going to give you those credentials if you don't have them already. so it still doesn't answer the question of why field work would be apparently considered less prestigious).

Maybe I was operating with a different understanding/definition of field work. I was, I suppose, more referring to ALL in-country work outside of the U.S. / Europe. And saying that I think it's really valuable to get experience out of the US/Europe if you want to do IHR, and even better to get regional expertise.

From what I have seen and heard some in-country posts could look more like office work -- i.e. to me the canoe example is on the extreme end of field work, particularly for a lawyer. You could, for example, be working in a INGO, in a IOG field posting, a local NGO (but I would think that's more rare) etc. Some of those are going to be more extreme direct work (like the canoe) and some are still going to be research, policy advising, fact-finding, court-oriented, all different things. Some of which (i.e. fact-finding) may imply going into the field but depending on where you are based (i.e. city v. rural, and where) the field may not always be as extreme and you are depicting. And it isn't necessarily the bulk of every in country person's work (i.e. I know a good number of foreign nationals who work in the IOM and UNHCR in the country where I am working and most of their work is in-office, pretty heavily research -- maybe you wouldn't define this as field work and that is where we differ. I still think it's valuable to get that in-country experience outside of the U.S./Europe, even if it is a person who prefers something more office-oriented). Because I agree with you that straight office work and extreme field work are not going to agree to the same people. But I don't think that all field placements are as extreme as your example suggests.

I don't think it's absurd or misguided to consider seeking out field placements at the beginning of your career, and have the desire to transition to non-field work later; I have a hard time believing that is THAT rare of a trajectory, as I can think of several people who have made that decision, and you are saying you are also transitioning (but in reverse). Like you said, a lot of things come into play with people leaving the field, but it's pretty logical that as people get older they want to have families and be more settled. Field work is tiring, emotionally and physically, in a lot of ways office work isn't.

And I still don't see how in-country work can be something that can hurt you on your résumé when you go to apply for an office job. And I still don't see why the skills, experience and expertise are not transferrable. You are still gaining an understanding of the IHR system but also gaining knowledge about the local context. Maybe it's more common with non-US nationals but I know a lot of IHR people that have bounced around (location and agency wise) in their careers (again, not really within one posting, but from posting to posting). And honestly places like the UN in their YPP almost encourage that (the main YPP diversity/nationality program has you in two different field placements in 5 years).

[NYSprague]

Thanks for starting the thread, worldtraveler. I have a question. Are you at a big disadvantage if you grew up in a poor/working class family?

You are if you can't find a way to get the credentials you need. But I'm from that background and I managed to do it.

You also won't have family money to fall back on for bar study and for the low starting salary you'll likely have.

I'm curious. Is there a while you could generally explain what you did? I will never follow your path but I would like to know how you got there.

[worldtraveler]

Thanks for starting the thread, worldtraveler. I have a question. Are you at a big disadvantage if you grew up in a poor/working class family?

You are if you can't find a way to get the credentials you need. But I'm from that background and I managed to do it.

You also won't have family money to fall back on for bar study and for the low starting salary you'll likely have.

I'm curious. Is there a while you could generally explain what you did?

I'm not sure I understand your question?

[NYSprague]

Thanks for starting the thread, worldtraveler. I have a question. Are you at a big disadvantage if you grew up in a poor/working class family?

You are if you can't find a way to get the credentials you need. But I'm from that background and I managed to do it.

You also won't have family money to fall back on for bar study and for the low starting salary you'll likely have.

I'm curious. Is there a while you could generally explain what you did?

I'm not sure I understand your question?

How you managed to get credentials without having money. Like went to state undergrad on scholarship and studied 5 languages.volunteered for free in Africa. Got into funded Phd with stipend.

[Splitter1415]

I think NYSprague meant to say he/she would like to know how you got the credentials you needed as somebody who did not come from a wealthy family.

[worldtraveler]

I think NYSprague meant to say he/she would like to know how you got the credentials you needed as somebody who did not come from a wealthy family.

ok i was just having trouble understanding. too busy arguing in the lounge

went to state undergrad on scholarship.
Used 2 NSEP boren scholarships to study abroad 2 years (I don't think you can get 2 anymore)
applied for all kinds of other research/academic scholarships and got a lot of them
got another fellowship to do grad work/teach in africa for a year
taught ESL in a foreign country for a year

law school:
studied like crazy for the LSAT on my own, spent a ton of time on apps
got a few FLAS fellowships
had funding to do 3 summers with NGOs in Africa (2 funding through school; the third a competitive fellowship)
did other clinic work/volunteer work in law school
got a fellowship to launch a new project with an NGO for a year
after that got hired by a university human rights center

so it can be done

[Flanker1067]

Thanks for starting the thread, worldtraveler. I have a question. Are you at a big disadvantage if you grew up in a poor/working class family?

You are if you can't find a way to get the credentials you need. But I'm from that background and I managed to do it.

You also won't have family money to fall back on for bar study and for the low starting salary you'll likely have.

This. Aside from ineffectiveness (add: I'm not saying all development work in ineffective, far from it, but it can't help being so when you have foreign governments actively working against you), this is the most infuriating thing about international human rights work. Some people speak 5 languages because their parents were ambassadors, others spent years getting international school credentials and interning while learning languages. It's all great, but it's definitely a rich persons club.

Quijotesca, I think you originally responded to my comment where I said field skills would not be useful in an office. I have to take one step back on that, in an ideal world, they would be, and they sometimes can be. But I'm not sure there's a job outside the country I am now in that focuses on this country anywhere. What I learned here applies mostly to here, and once I leave, it's likely I could find a job dealing only with regional issues (if at all) rather then focused on the country. Of course, that changes depending on where your field work is, and what international organizations are focusing on at any time. That being said, I don't really know about headquarters, so I defer to worldtraveler on that.

Added reminder: I don't practice human rights law right now. I did human rights work (not law) briefly when I arrived in this country, and now I work for a law firm. However, this is the field, and I am constantly surrounded (many of my friends here) by people doing international human rights, criminal, and environmental law. It's what my SO does here too.

[dresden doll]

But if continuing in this field means working in a DC office or in NY, I'd rather go teach high school or something, so in that case not worth it.

Doesn't it though? I'm not in IHR although some of our stuff does touch on it, and it's definitely going to be a step down for me professionally if I try to do what I do anywhere that's not-NYC or not-DC.

[worldtraveler]

But if continuing in this field means working in a DC office or in NY, I'd rather go teach high school or something, so in that case not worth it.

Doesn't it though? I'm not in IHR although some of our stuff does touch on it, and it's definitely going to be a step down for me professionally if I try to do what I do anywhere that's not-NYC or not-DC.

I've just determined I'm not meant for an office at all, or at the very least not a headquarters one.

And one thing I didn't mention is that you will have very little control over where you live. You take the offer you can get, not the one you want, much like academia.

[Flanker1067]

But if continuing in this field means working in a DC office or in NY, I'd rather go teach high school or something, so in that case not worth it.

Doesn't it though? I'm not in IHR although some of our stuff does touch on it, and it's definitely going to be a step down for me professionally if I try to do what I do anywhere that's not-NYC or not-DC.

To me, that depends on what you mean by continuing. If your goal is to make a difference in peoples' lives, absolutely not. Other goals, maybe.

[quijotesca1011]

Quijotesca, I think you originally responded to my comment where I said field skills would not be useful in an office. I have to take one step back on that, in an ideal world, they would be, and they sometimes can be. But I'm not sure there's a job outside the country I am now in that focuses on this country anywhere. What I learned here applies mostly to here, and once I leave, it's likely I could find a job dealing only with regional issues (if at all) rather then focused on the country. Of course, that changes depending on where your field work is, and what international organizations are focusing on at any time. That being said, I don't really know about headquarters, so I defer to worldtraveler on that.

Yeah, it makes sense that it may depend a lot on the country. I also work in LA at the moment which is perhaps distinct in a lot of ways -- for example, linguistic uniformity, or the fact that there are a lot of regional issues that manifest themselves differently in different national contexts, but still have perhaps more common threads than in other regions. So I think that having in country experience in LA with an issue would help you to more quickly gain a grasp on the dynamics of that issue in another LA country, although you would obviously have to take the national context into account (the major disclaimer being that I do NOT mean that just because you worked in 1-2 LA country you become a regional expert -- there's obviously tons of diversity of issues and of ways of dealing with issues between countries within the region etc… I've seen witnessed the really problematic practice of saying that because someone has spent even as little as a year in 1 country that they are then an expert on the whole region…definitely concerning). I don't have first-hand experience in other regions so it might be very different.

I would think that some knowledge/experience from field work - the realities of working with little to no resources, experience in negotiating cultural/linguistic differences (even if they aren't the ones you are dealing with), dealing with local bureaucracy, learning lots of patience - would make you more effective when you work from an office, even if you aren't working directly on the country or region where you have experience. But those are (a) pretty intangible, (b) not measurable, and (c) not something I'm suggesting they take into account in hiring, just something I suggest would make you more effective at partnering with and working with local partners.

[crazycanuck]

Do you guys ever find you have to work with really slimy people?

I heard the stories of a guy who went to Africa to help set up some local banks and help guide them through the process of doing that. He said that the "bank managers" and local officials there were often ex-pats who had left North America because they had other... sexual desires... that are illegal here. He knew where they would go after they would close the bank/finish negotiations but still had to work with them because they were the only people who could get shit done there. Had to turn a blind eye to it. Said he would never go back to do it again.

[rad lulz]

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