Dilemma between undesirable T2 and neutral T3s Forum

[thevuch]

No, I'm saying OP should not go to law school at all. Frankly, if he's maxed out his LSAT <160 and has <3.0 GPA, there is basically no way to get a good offer.

OP, for what it's worth, T2/3/4 is not a meaningful distinction. Do you really think the 99th school is going to be much better than the 101st ranked school? It basically goes T14 (with gradations within T14) -> really good regionals (UT, Vandy, Emory, ND, UCLA, etc) - > decent regionals -> shit. This "tiers" nonsense is just something USNWR made up. If you can't get a good offer (you probably can't with your numbers) don't go to law school.

180

Yes I agree with all of this except the Emory part

[HRomanus]

No, I'm saying OP should not go to law school at all. Frankly, if he's maxed out his LSAT <160 and has <3.0 GPA, there is basically no way to get a good offer.

OP, for what it's worth, T2/3/4 is not a meaningful distinction. Do you really think the 99th school is going to be much better than the 101st ranked school? It basically goes T14 (with gradations within T14) -> really good regionals (UT, Vandy, Emory, ND, UCLA, etc) - > decent regionals -> shit. This "tiers" nonsense is just something USNWR made up. If you can't get a good offer (you probably can't with your numbers) don't go to law school.

180

Yes I agree with all of this except the Emory part

Emory hate really isn't justified. Employment data qualifies it as a strong regional.

[fanlinxun]

I don't post much and I generally oppose the "retake or don't go to law school" mentality that fills so many of these threads, but OP you really need to start asking yourself what you want to get out of law school.

Yes, people say "retake" all the time because...why not? What's the worst that will happen? You end up scoring a few points higher?

But the general mantra isn't "retake or don't go to law school." The general mantra, in response to idiotic decisions like that posed in this thread, is "retake or don't go to these law schools." There are plenty of people here who will also tell you that assuming you've got a full ride, without stips, and your COL is under control, it's not a complete disaster. It would be nice if you have that scenario at a school that has some kind of regional recognition at the very least. This is actually one of the very first threads that I've seen (and agreed with) the reaction of "just don't go" because honestly, that's the only responsible advice to give in this scenario. The OP has set up one train wreck after another with these choices, and every single one is certain to lead to one place only: off a cliff.

Consider reading my whole post before jumping on my first sentence. You will discover that I came to the same conclusion you did.

The reason I often disagree with the "retake" mantra is because many posters are asking for specific advice (like making a decision between two schools) and instead get berated for not being willing to retake. Frankly the "choosing a law school" threads lose much of their value when they turn from offering information about OPs' specific situations to just telling them to retake. If someone is absolutely set on choosing between two options that most would agree are both bad I don't see why posters can't offer insight to help them make the better of two bad decisions.

That said, I absolutely agree that the OP in this thread should not go to law school.

[metroidbum]

Please don't go to law school.

[rickgrimes69]

The reason I often disagree with the "retake" mantra is because many posters are asking for specific advice (like making a decision between two schools) and instead get berated for not being willing to retake. Frankly the "choosing a law school" threads lose much of their value when they turn from offering information about OPs' specific situations to just telling them to retake. If someone is absolutely set on choosing between two options that most would agree are both bad I don't see why posters can't offer insight to help them make the better of two bad decisions.

I'm considering shooting myself in the face with a shotgun

However I also have a power drill that would be perfect for giving myself a lobotomy

Which is better guys please help, and don't say "neither" I've made up my mind

[fanlinxun]

The reason I often disagree with the "retake" mantra is because many posters are asking for specific advice (like making a decision between two schools) and instead get berated for not being willing to retake. Frankly the "choosing a law school" threads lose much of their value when they turn from offering information about OPs' specific situations to just telling them to retake. If someone is absolutely set on choosing between two options that most would agree are both bad I don't see why posters can't offer insight to help them make the better of two bad decisions.

I'm considering shooting myself in the face with a shotgun

However I also have a power drill that would be perfect for giving myself a lobotomy

Which is better guys please help, and don't say "neither" I've made up my mind

No argument stands up when taken to ridiculous extremes. A better comparison would be a high school graduate choosing between two "dead end" jobs instead of going to college. Neither of the jobs is necessarily the right decision, but one might be a little better than the other and he deserves to be able to get the information he needs to figure that out.

That said, OP still shouldn't go to law school.

[hdunlop]

Would you spend $300K $100K to get a PhD in English Literature? Similar employment outcomes.

[Gooner91]

Is the CA school Thomas Jefferson?

[HRomanus]

The reason I often disagree with the "retake" mantra is because many posters are asking for specific advice (like making a decision between two schools) and instead get berated for not being willing to retake. Frankly the "choosing a law school" threads lose much of their value when they turn from offering information about OPs' specific situations to just telling them to retake. If someone is absolutely set on choosing between two options that most would agree are both bad I don't see why posters can't offer insight to help them make the better of two bad decisions.

I'm considering shooting myself in the face with a shotgun

However I also have a power drill that would be perfect for giving myself a lobotomy

Which is better guys please help, and don't say "neither" I've made up my mind

I largely agree with fanlinxun. Your analogy is far too simplistic and obvious to be useful. Pretty much every school (other than TTTT) has at least some chance at a favorable outcome, even if it isn't BigLaw. "Law," "lawyers," and "law school" have a strong sense of prestige among college students and the general citizenry. Aside from that, I would guess that your average 0L has a confident personality and is used to achieving goals; why shouldn't they get a favorable outcome?

Hell, that's a cultural trope, and it is perhaps illustrated best by the NFL Draft's sixth round. Check out these NFL LST scores. 21.4% of sixth round picks never play a game, and the average pick will start 8.6 games. Since 2001, there have been 458 sixth round draft picks; only nine (2%) have made the Pro Bowl and only one (.2%) has been named an All-Pro. These are worse LST scores than Cooley LOLaw. And yet, Tom Brady was drafted in the sixth round and has gone on to become the Greatest of All Time. Why? Because - and I quote from his father in the Brady 6 - "They missed the most important part: heart. They didn't understand what drives him."

But fanlinxun's point is that we on TLS won't accomplish anything if we just dump on these guys. Our jeers - "lol retake" - and blunt facts won't dissuade them from law school. The vast majority will find solace in someone else confirming their choice. We have a moral obligation to engage these people and carefully and delicately present our advice. I think the best advice this forum can give is to not go to law school. But unless we give advice correctly, these guys aren't going to listen and they're going to ruin their lives.

Full disclosure: I added the Brady example so I could watch the Brady 6 again. You can find the full documentary (and it's amazing) here. The NFL stats are from here. Brady's story is also a great example of how so many factors go into success or failure and how so many are beyond our control. Drafted in the first round with great measurables, Chad Pennington should have had a great career. But he was constantly injured and had a poor surrounding team. Brady not only lucked into starting because of a freak injury, but achieved success (in part) because of an amazing team. The same is true in any other field, which is why choosing the best law school is so important. You can't control so many factors, so you have to be smart about the ones you can.

[Danger Zone]

Everyone who is drafted into the NFL immediately becomes a professional athlete. Fewer than half of the enrollees at these schools will become a professional anything within nine months.

[HRomanus]

Everyone who is drafted into the NFL immediately becomes a professional athlete. Fewer than half of the enrollees at these schools will become a professional anything within nine months.

Okay, increase the scope to high school football players. If you play football as a high school senior, you have a 0.08% of becoming an NFL player. And the average NFL player is out of the league in three years. But Tom Brady made it, so why not make that your goal? My point was that it is a cultural trope that "heart" and "hard work" can yield success. One of the Brady 6 says: "I tell guys: you can go undrafted, drafted low, and win a Super Bowl because Tom Brady did it." Does that sound like 0L mentality or what?

[Danger Zone]

Oh. That's not how I interpreted that point at first, but now I got ya.

[eriedoctrine]

No, I'm saying OP should not go to law school at all. Frankly, if he's maxed out his LSAT <160 and has <3.0 GPA, there is basically no way to get a good offer.

OP, for what it's worth, T2/3/4 is not a meaningful distinction. Do you really think the 99th school is going to be much better than the 101st ranked school? It basically goes T14 (with gradations within T14) -> really good regionals (UT, Vandy, Emory, ND, UCLA, etc) - > decent regionals -> shit. This "tiers" nonsense is just something USNWR made up. If you can't get a good offer (you probably can't with your numbers) don't go to law school.

180

Yes I agree with all of this except the Emory part

This. Replace Emory with WUSTL.

Emory would be okay if it weren't for the simple fact that UGA places almost as well (fed clerk + biglaw) and is much cheaper with ~16k/yr IS.
If OOSers make minimal effort, they can get in state tuition after 1L.

[HRomanus]

Oh. That's not how I interpreted that point at first, but now I got ya.

Yea, I was kinda shoe-horning the NFL comparrison in for the Brady love.

It's also not entirely fair: the NFL is far more a meritocracy than the legal field. The exception is probably QB, because there are so few chances to play and they're unlikely to go to a low-round pick. Brady played because of a freak injury and Russell Wilson plays because LOL Matt Flynn and Tarvis Jackson.

Emory would be okay if it weren't for the simple fact that UGA places similarly (fed clerk + biglaw) and is much cheaper.
If you make minimal effort, you can get in state tuition of ~18k/yr after 1L.

If by "places similarly" you mean 33% less, yes they place similarly. Emory places 27.4% in BigLaw + Fed Clerk (including 15.4% in lucrative 501+) while UGA places 18.4% (including only 5.6% in lucrative 501+). Seriously, Emory's BigLaw score is double UGA's. Emory has issues in employment, but it doesn't deserve that comparrison.

[eriedoctrine]

Oh. That's not how I interpreted that point at first, but now I got ya.

Yea, I was kinda shoe-horning the NFL comparrison in for the Brady love.

It's also not entirely fair: the NFL is far more a meritocracy than the legal field. The exception is probably QB, because there are so few chances to play and they're unlikely to go to a low-round pick. Brady played because of a freak injury and Russell Wilson plays because LOL Matt Flynn and Tarvis Jackson.

Emory would be okay if it weren't for the simple fact that UGA places similarly (fed clerk + biglaw) and is much cheaper.
If you make minimal effort, you can get in state tuition of ~18k/yr after 1L.

If by "places similarly" you mean 33% less, yes they place similarly. Emory places 27.4% in BigLaw + Fed Clerk (including 15.4% in lucrative 501+) while UGA places 18.4% (including only 5.6% in lucrative 501+). Seriously, Emory's BigLaw score is double UGA's. Emory has issues in employment, but it doesn't deserve that comparrison.

*25.7% v. 18.4%
And it was much closer last year. 29% v 24%

Sure for similar $, go with Emory, but that's not going to happen.
If you have numbers to get $ from Emory, you can get close to a full ride at UGA.

If you want NY, go to Fordham. If you want DC, go to GW. If you want Atlanta, go to UGA.
Emory doesn't fit in this picture. Also they're starting to become like GW with those 20%+ school funded positions.

[HRomanus]

*25.7% v. 18.4%
And it was much closer last year. 29% v 24%

Sure for equal $, go with Emory, but that's never going to happen.
If you have numbers to get $ from Emory, you can get full ride at UGA.

If you want NY, go to Fordham. If you want DC, go to GW. If you want Atlanta, go to UGA.
Emory doesn't fit in this picture.

You're right on the Emory numbers - I counted the 51-100 accidentally for Emory.

For reference: this cycle, my COA for the two differed by like $40k and that's with a last minute $15k scholarship increase by UGA. Most of that difference is COL and I felt comfortable I could decrease my estimated Emory COA a good bit (e.g. $4300 for books).

[eriedoctrine]

*25.7% v. 18.4%
And it was much closer last year. 29% v 24%

Sure for equal $, go with Emory, but that's never going to happen.
If you have numbers to get $ from Emory, you can get full ride at UGA.

If you want NY, go to Fordham. If you want DC, go to GW. If you want Atlanta, go to UGA.
Emory doesn't fit in this picture.

You're right on the Emory numbers - I counted the 51-100 accidentally for Emory.

For reference: this cycle, my COA for the two differed by like $40k and that's with a last minute $15k scholarship increase by UGA. Most of that difference is COL and I felt comfortable I could decrease my estimated Emory COA a good bit (e.g. $4300 for books).

Ugh, 40k is still a bit too much.
Don't get me wrong, Emory is a fine school, but the fact that UGA exists diminishes that capacity.

Also the gap should be wider if you factored in state tuition for after 1L.

[HRomanus]

Ugh, 40k is still a bit too much.
Don't get me wrong, Emory is a fine school, but the fact that UGA exists diminishes that capacity.

Also the gap should be wider if you factored in state tuition for after 1L.

I did factor in state tuition for all three years (I received the in-state equalizer). I received a $12,500 scholarship to UGA (originally $7,500) and $111,000 scholarship to Emory. I would have chosen Emory if I had decided to go this cycle. I also applied to UNC and their COA was just $12k less than Emory.

[eriedoctrine]

Ugh, 40k is still a bit too much.
Don't get me wrong, Emory is a fine school, but the fact that UGA exists diminishes that capacity.

Also the gap should be wider if you factored in state tuition for after 1L.

I did factor in state tuition for all three years (I received the in-state equalizer). I received a $12,500 scholarship to UGA (originally $7,500) and $111,000 scholarship to Emory. I would have chosen Emory if I had decided to go this cycle. I also applied to UNC and their COA was just $12k less than Emory.

Ah, I guess if you decide to go GA resident, their "in state equalizer" gets removed. That's a bummer.
Well good luck to you.

[lhanvt13]

Oh my god this thread is gold how did i just now find this?

OP go to those schools. Only way you'll learn: getting knocked out of your Narnia little world into reality. Reality might hit you so hard your IQ might go up to double digits

[HRomanus]

Ah, I guess if you decide to go GA resident, their "in state equalizer" gets removed. That's a bummer.
Well good luck to you.

The in-state equalizer is a one-year scholarship that reduces your 1L tuition to in-state level. I also factored the risk of applying for GA residency when I was making my decision. Will say this: I decided not to go this cycle and will be retaking/reapplying. But based on all my research, Emory is a strong regional school. It's COA is highly inflated by the COL in Atlanta, but I think that can be managed to some degree.

OP go to those schools. Only way you'll learn: getting knocked out of your Narnia little world into reality. Reality might hit you so hard your IQ might go up to double digits

FFS this is exactly what I meant by dumping on 0Ls. This isn't going to convince the OP to not go, it's going to piss him off and/or drive him to someone who will agree with his choice. As a TLS community, we'll have more success if we engage OPs with a balance of truth and respect.

[lhanvt13]

Ah, I guess if you decide to go GA resident, their "in state equalizer" gets removed. That's a bummer.
Well good luck to you.

The in-state equalizer is a one-year scholarship that reduces your 1L tuition to in-state level. I also factored the risk of applying for GA residency when I was making my decision. Will say this: I decided not to go this cycle and will be retaking/reapplying. But based on all my research, Emory is a strong regional school. It's COA is highly inflated by the COL in Atlanta, but I think that can be managed to some degree.

OP go to those schools. Only way you'll learn: getting knocked out of your Narnia little world into reality. Reality might hit you so hard your IQ might go up to double digits

FFS this is exactly what I meant by dumping on 0Ls. This isn't going to convince the OP to not go, it's going to piss him off and/or drive him to someone who will agree with his choice. As a TLS community, we'll have more success if we engage OPs with a balance of truth and respect.

OP, don't go to those schools with a sliver of a chance of getting a semi-decent job. Work a couple years and then re-apply or don't go at all and find alternate career choices.. b/c otherwise, it'll be a wasted couple of years for you, statistically speaking. There is no guarantee you will do well, and in those schools, you'd have to do extremely well, coupled with extreme luck. For the sake of your future, settle down and think about your choice. It's really not worth it. There are plenty of T1 schools that can't even produce good employment outcomes for nearly half the school. It's bound to be worse at any of your other options.

Respectfully, lhanvt

My initial response still stands. Go if you wanna learn the hard way

[HRomanus]

OP, don't go to those schools with a sliver of a chance of getting a semi-decent job. Work a couple years and then re-apply or don't go at all and find alternate career choices.. b/c otherwise, it'll be a wasted couple of years for you, statistically speaking. There is no guarantee you will do well, and in those schools, you'd have to do extremely well, coupled with extreme luck. For the sake of your future, settle down and think about your choice. It's really not worth it. There are plenty of T1 schools that can't even produce good employment outcomes for nearly half the school. It's bound to be worse at any of your other options.

Respectfully, lhanvt

The very picture of Christian charity. Seriously though, I think that kind of response will have a great effect on 0Ls who are contemplating horrible life-changing decisions.

[lhanvt13]

OP, don't go to those schools with a sliver of a chance of getting a semi-decent job. Work a couple years and then re-apply or don't go at all and find alternate career choices.. b/c otherwise, it'll be a wasted couple of years for you, statistically speaking. There is no guarantee you will do well, and in those schools, you'd have to do extremely well, coupled with extreme luck. For the sake of your future, settle down and think about your choice. It's really not worth it. There are plenty of T1 schools that can't even produce good employment outcomes for nearly half the school. It's bound to be worse at any of your other options.

Respectfully, lhanvt

The very picture of Christian charity.

It's pretty much decided that I'm going to hell anyway. Myeh

[TheSpanishMain]

The way I view it, if you're going to wait for all the stars to align before you do anything then you're going to have a bad time. I rather take my chances, knowing I'm going to work hard and if I'm not good enough then I don't mind dropping out after my 1L with about a year's worth of living expenses as debt.

Just curious, but how do you rationalize your ability to 'work hard'?

You didn't work hard as an undergraduate, as evidenced by a horrible GPA.

You didn't work hard for the LSAT, as evidenced by a terrible LSAT.

When have you truly worked hard in your life? This isn't a flame. I'm asking if you truly believe, based on your track record, you will suddenly change in law school and be in the top 10%. You have no record of academic success, yet you want to pursue a career which requires you to succeed academically for 3 years.

+1 for this solid post. It always makes me wonder when people go "I have a 2.8 GPA and a 151 LSAT, but I'm confident I can be in the top 5% of my class."

What the hell could that confidence possibly be based on?