Life as a unicorn Forum

[bk1]

Can somebody give me a tldr of the OP?

People who "get what they want" at top schools are still miserable because biglaw sucks. With that in mind TLS should tell people to never take out 6 figs of debt, explain how crushing debt really is, push back on what 0Ls think they want to do post-law school to make sure 0Ls are realistic, tell K-JDs to get WE before going to law school so they are more realistic, and come up with feasible non-law career paths to suggest to 0Ls when TLS tells them not to go to law school.

[09042014]

There is a lot in this thread that I disagree with, but I will flip the fuck out if V5 is added to our definition of "unicorn job." No. No. No. Unicorn jobs are not shitty kill yourself to help the rich steal from the rich at a large corporate law firm gigs that you can land from top 1/3 at t14s.

A V5 job isn't a unicorn; it's basically available to anyone at Y, above median at H and S, and top third at CCN. That's, what, 700 people or so? It's a perfectly reasonable goal if you can get into those schools.

Considering the very essence of what is a unicorn job, I'm not prepared to dictate some hard and fast definition that would either include or exclude a V5 firm. But look, when we're talking about fractions of people at HYSCCN, I think it's reasonable to at least give credence to the fact that these people probably chose the V5 firm for the exit options and that those exit options will, presumably be "better" than the exit options from a different firm. If you two insist that a V5 gig isn't "unicorny" enough, fine, I'm not going to fight with you -- just keep in mind that at the point where students at the top six schools in the country would be ecstatic to land one of these gigs, that should at least give anyone who's looking at this thinking this is (one of) the best law school outcomes a moment of pause.

Also, you found someone that hates their firm job. Congrats! There are lots of those. There are also lots of folks who like them, and lots of folks who find them merely OK. The overarching principle is that anyone going to work in a 60-70 hour a week job has to be aware of the downside case of not liking the job, because that's a lot of time doing something that you may not have interest in.

Except that:

1) People in biglaw seem to universally hate it, with the exceptions being "I'm okay with it." People voluntarily leaving biglaw for a significant pay cut is pretty normal.
2) 0Ls have no business committing themselves to working in biglaw for 4-5 years (by taking out a lot of debt) when they've never actually worked at all, let a uniquely "mundane, yet stressful" environment.
3) Calculated risk really shouldn't apply to a world where the impacts are terminalized. I appreciate people make risky choices all the time, but it's basically law students and med students that take on six-digits of debt for the guarantee of (if nothing else) 7-13 years of having debt hanging over you and impacting your career choices.

A lot of it is still driven by prestige, and they still shouldn't pay any extra money for the chance to clerk

This was basically all I was going for. That, and that people looking at choosing between schools should probably be questioned a bit further when their primary goal out of law school is a clerkship.

Unicorn job doesn't mean prestigious or tough to get. It means so rare nobody believes they exist, so beautiful it would make Skadden midlevels cry, etc. etc.

Shit that like 25% of T6 students get is not unicorn in the slightest.

[buffalo_]

Just wanted to point out the huge sampling bias by using TLS as the source for "firm life with debt is horrible and ruins your life."

I am not disagreeing with any specific points of the OP, nor saying that everyone in BigLaw likes it. I am just pointing out that there is approximately a 10 bajillion percent greater likelihood that an unhappy BigLawyer will post anonymously online about how horrible BigLaw is, than say a BigLawyer who is content with their job and spends their valuable and scarce free time doing things they enjoy (i.e. not perusing law school discussion forums).

I would be interested if anyone did an analysis of TLS and see what portion of the graduating TLSers stopped posting all together after joining BigLaw. Not all of these people may love their jobs, but I am sure many of them do.

[worldtraveler]

Can somebody give me a tldr of the OP?

People who "get what they want" at top schools are still miserable because biglaw sucks. With that in mind TLS should tell people to never take out 6 figs of debt, explain how crushing debt really is, push back on what 0Ls think they want to do post-law school to make sure 0Ls are realistic, tell K-JDs to get WE before going to law school so they are more realistic, and come up with feasible non-law career paths to suggest to 0Ls when TLS tells them not to go to law school.

Don't we kind of already do that?

[bk1]

Can somebody give me a tldr of the OP?

People who "get what they want" at top schools are still miserable because biglaw sucks. With that in mind TLS should tell people to never take out 6 figs of debt, explain how crushing debt really is, push back on what 0Ls think they want to do post-law school to make sure 0Ls are realistic, tell K-JDs to get WE before going to law school so they are more realistic, and come up with feasible non-law career paths to suggest to 0Ls when TLS tells them not to go to law school.

Don't we kind of already do that?

Yeah kinda, though not to the extent that OP proposes. The real issue has been with OP referring to V5s as unicorn jobs and comparing wanting to clerk with wanting to be on LR.

[Elston Gunn]

Just wanted to point out the huge sampling bias by using TLS as the source for "firm life with debt is horrible and ruins your life."

I am not disagreeing with any specific points of the OP, nor saying that everyone in BigLaw likes it. I am just pointing out that there is approximately a 10 bajillion percent greater likelihood that an unhappy BigLawyer will post anonymously online about how horrible BigLaw is, than say a BigLawyer who is content with their job and spends their valuable and scarce free time doing things they enjoy (i.e. not perusing law school discussion forums).

I would be interested if anyone did an analysis of TLS and see what portion of the graduating TLSers stopped posting all together after joining BigLaw. Not all of these people may love their jobs, but I am sure many of them do.

Well, Rayiner for instance has been here forever and was long one of the most reasonable supporters of going to law school and doing biglaw. Read his post on the previous page. Or read anything Thesealocust, about as uncynical a poster as you can get and someone who likes his job, has written about it. It's fair enough to say that random people who don't normally post but decide to start a thread are probably going to be unhappy, but there's a pretty big cohort of people that never left and would clearly be posting whether or not they were happy. They seem to range from, "BigLaw is the fucking worst, run" to "Well, it's doable, and I guess I'm not going to quit, but man do certain things about it *suck*."

[Pragmatic Gun]

A perfect example of a unicorn job is working as a prosecutor at an international tribunal like the ICTY and the ICTR. These tribunals are already winding down, and the only way to work at one of these is if another genocide or ethnic conflict breaks out which would necessitate a tribunal.

Another example is working at the ICC (which my dream job, btw), which is hard for Americans (since we're not parties to the treaty) and making the connections for that to happen requires years of experience and finding the right people.

[TheSpanishMain]

Just wanted to point out the huge sampling bias by using TLS as the source for "firm life with debt is horrible and ruins your life."

I am not disagreeing with any specific points of the OP, nor saying that everyone in BigLaw likes it. I am just pointing out that there is approximately a 10 bajillion percent greater likelihood that an unhappy BigLawyer will post anonymously online about how horrible BigLaw is, than say a BigLawyer who is content with their job and spends their valuable and scarce free time doing things they enjoy (i.e. not perusing law school discussion forums).

I would be interested if anyone did an analysis of TLS and see what portion of the graduating TLSers stopped posting all together after joining BigLaw. Not all of these people may love their jobs, but I am sure many of them do.

I've talked to a fair amount of Big Law associates outside of TLS, and I've never heard anyone say they love their job. I've heard some of them say things along the lines of, "Well, it's not so bad, I suppose...I can hang in there for a few years..." That's probably the strongest praise I've gotten. I know this is anecdotal, but it seems pretty universal that Big Law is at best not a great experience.

[worldtraveler]

A perfect example of a unicorn job is working as a prosecutor at an international tribunal like the ICTY and the ICTR. These tribunals are already winding down, and the only way to work at one of these is if another genocide or ethnic conflict breaks out which would necessitate a tribunal.

Another example is working at the ICC (which my dream job, btw), which is hard for Americans (since we're not parties to the treaty) and making the connections for that to happen requires years of experience and finding the right people.

pray for genocide i guess

[buffalo_]

Just wanted to point out the huge sampling bias by using TLS as the source for "firm life with debt is horrible and ruins your life."

I am not disagreeing with any specific points of the OP, nor saying that everyone in BigLaw likes it. I am just pointing out that there is approximately a 10 bajillion percent greater likelihood that an unhappy BigLawyer will post anonymously online about how horrible BigLaw is, than say a BigLawyer who is content with their job and spends their valuable and scarce free time doing things they enjoy (i.e. not perusing law school discussion forums).

I would be interested if anyone did an analysis of TLS and see what portion of the graduating TLSers stopped posting all together after joining BigLaw. Not all of these people may love their jobs, but I am sure many of them do.

Well, Rayiner for instance has been here forever and was long one of the most reasonable supporters of going to law school and doing biglaw. Read his post on the previous page. Or read anything Thesealocust, about as uncynical a poster as you can get and someone who likes his job, has written about it. It's fair enough to say that random people who don't normally post but decide to start a thread are probably going to be unhappy, but there's a pretty big cohort of people that never left and would clearly be posting whether or not they were happy. They seem to range from, "BigLaw is the fucking worst, run" to "Well, it's doable, and I guess I'm not going to quit, but man do certain things about it *suck*."

Yeah, Rayiner has some great insight, and does skew more towards the "it's doable" side than the "it's horrible side."

But my point is that if there is a spectrum where on the left "hell on earth" and on the right is "heaven on earth" and the middle is "Well, it's doable, and I guess I'm not going to quit, but man do certain things about it *suck*," the chances someone to the right of the middle coming online to post are much lower than the people to the left of the middle (new threads or otherwise, though new threads are muchmuchmuch more likely to be further left).

The presence of people at the middle or even right of middle is not evidence to discredit the claim that the "likelihood" of someone posting is higher on the left half of the spectrum.

[californiauser]

Just wanted to point out the huge sampling bias by using TLS as the source for "firm life with debt is horrible and ruins your life."

I am not disagreeing with any specific points of the OP, nor saying that everyone in BigLaw likes it. I am just pointing out that there is approximately a 10 bajillion percent greater likelihood that an unhappy BigLawyer will post anonymously online about how horrible BigLaw is, than say a BigLawyer who is content with their job and spends their valuable and scarce free time doing things they enjoy (i.e. not perusing law school discussion forums).

I would be interested if anyone did an analysis of TLS and see what portion of the graduating TLSers stopped posting all together after joining BigLaw. Not all of these people may love their jobs, but I am sure many of them do.

I've talked to a fair amount of Big Law associates outside of TLS, and I've never heard anyone say they love their job. I've heard some of them say things along the lines of, "Well, it's not so bad, I suppose...I can hang in there for a few years..." That's probably the strongest praise I've gotten. I know this is anecdotal, but it seems pretty universal that Big Law is at best not a great experience.

This is true of 90% of jobs in general, and probably 95% of jobs paying 100k+.

[TheSpanishMain]

This is true of 90% of jobs in general, and probably 95% of jobs paying 100k+.

This is true. I've made the argument in threads on Big Law before that loving your job is probably too high a standard. A lot of people seem to think if their job isn't fulfilling/stimulating/boner inducing every second of the day they're being cheated by life somehow. It's still work. They pay you to do it because you probably wouldn't want to do it for free.

The question is whether Big Law as a career path is worth 250k in debt. I'd tend to think not, but I'm a 0L so who knows?

[Elston Gunn]

Just wanted to point out the huge sampling bias by using TLS as the source for "firm life with debt is horrible and ruins your life."

I am not disagreeing with any specific points of the OP, nor saying that everyone in BigLaw likes it. I am just pointing out that there is approximately a 10 bajillion percent greater likelihood that an unhappy BigLawyer will post anonymously online about how horrible BigLaw is, than say a BigLawyer who is content with their job and spends their valuable and scarce free time doing things they enjoy (i.e. not perusing law school discussion forums).

I would be interested if anyone did an analysis of TLS and see what portion of the graduating TLSers stopped posting all together after joining BigLaw. Not all of these people may love their jobs, but I am sure many of them do.

Well, Rayiner for instance has been here forever and was long one of the most reasonable supporters of going to law school and doing biglaw. Read his post on the previous page. Or read anything Thesealocust, about as uncynical a poster as you can get and someone who likes his job, has written about it. It's fair enough to say that random people who don't normally post but decide to start a thread are probably going to be unhappy, but there's a pretty big cohort of people that never left and would clearly be posting whether or not they were happy. They seem to range from, "BigLaw is the fucking worst, run" to "Well, it's doable, and I guess I'm not going to quit, but man do certain things about it *suck*."

Yeah, Rayiner has some great insight, and does skew more towards the "it's doable" side than the "it's horrible side."

But my point is that if there is a spectrum where on the left "hell on earth" and on the right is "heaven on earth" and the middle is "Well, it's doable, and I guess I'm not going to quit, but man do certain things about it *suck*," the chances someone to the right of the middle coming online to post are much lower than the people to the left of the middle (new threads or otherwise, though new threads are muchmuchmuch more likely to be further left).

The presence of people at the middle or even right of middle is not evidence to discredit the claim that the "likelihood" of someone posting is higher on the left half of the spectrum.

But you're not even providing evidence for the claim, and it's not as obvious as you make it. I agree the far left is more likely to randomly come on, but outside of that, the vast majority of opinions we have are from people who didn't just up and join recently. And of course, some of the ones that did just join do like the job. There was a poster about 6 months back I think I'd never seen before who started a thread about how he really liked BigLaw even though much of it was brutal. wons I don't think has been around that long, and he(?) is clearly very pleased with his job.

[dcpanther]

.

[09042014]

The only people I know who like big law are fundamentally broken people. The sort who'd make any job 80 hours a week. And even those people don't really like it all that much.

[bk1]

This is true. I've made the argument in threads on Big Law before that loving your job is probably too high a standard. A lot of people seem to think if their job isn't fulfilling/stimulating/boner inducing every second of the day they're being cheated by life somehow. It's still work. They pay you to do it because you probably wouldn't want to do it for free.

While this may be true of the general population, I think that the biglawyers on TLS are not that naive and yet still tend to dislike the job.

[worldtraveler]

The only people I know who like big law are fundamentally broken people. The sort who'd make any job 80 hours a week. And even those people don't really like it all that much.

I know a couple people who like it but they are in patent lit, which seems a little different.

[09042014]

The only people I know who like big law are fundamentally broken people. The sort who'd make any job 80 hours a week. And even those people don't really like it all that much.

I know a couple people who like it but they are in patent lit, which seems a little different.

In my experience us patent lit people are way "weirder" or nerdier, but much nicer. My bosses show me respect. I thought it might just be my firm, but it might just be universal to engineers.

[rayiner]

I think me, IAFG, and DF are happier with our jobs than average. We don't have one of the major pain points with big law, because we're married and don't really mind that we can't keep dates or have to break plans to hang out with friends. I don't think any of us as planning on exiting as third years.

I know people who like their job more than I do who don't post here. One was in banking before, the other in consulting. I also know someone who quit after a bit more than a year because she was totally miserable. She doesn't post here either. I don't think the opinions expressed here are unrepresentative overall.

[worldtraveler]

The only people I know who like big law are fundamentally broken people. The sort who'd make any job 80 hours a week. And even those people don't really like it all that much.

I know a couple people who like it but they are in patent lit, which seems a little different.

In my experience us patent lit people are way "weirder" or nerdier, but much nicer. My bosses show me respect. I thought it might just be my firm, but it might just be universal to engineers.

I think that's some of it. They all genuinely like the other attorneys they work with and all get excited over nerdy stuff. Also really weird and socially stunted, but not assholes.

[buffalo_]

But you're not even providing evidence for the claim, and it's not as obvious as you make it. I agree the far left is more likely to randomly come on, but outside of that, the vast majority of opinions we have are from people who didn't just up and join recently. And of course, some of the ones that did just join do like the job. There was a poster about 6 months back I think I'd never seen before who started a thread about how he really liked BigLaw even though much of it was brutal. wons I don't think has been around that long, and he(?) is clearly very pleased with his job.

Evidence: social/leisure activities -> happiness and less available time for TLS
Sadness -> lack of desire for socialization and leisure activities -> more time for TLS

I am just making a claim about probability, and the claim is fairly intuitive. I didn't think it was that controversial to make that claim.

The recency of someone joining is not really relevant. I would claim long time poster that is happy in BL is less likely than longtime poster that is unhappy in BL to post.

Your post also made me think about another source of sampling bias. Since TLS skews negative on BL lifestyle (at least in the on-topics), then posters who take this position will find more support for their opinion and are thus encouraged to continue the expression of it. An individual with an opinion contrary to the majority viewpoint, is less likely to receive support, will feel less "inclusion" among posters, and feel overwhelmed if attempting to refute or discredit the majority. This further tips posters in one direction.


All of this is just an attempt to look at TLS wisdom critically. Everyone should evaluate the source of advice before taking it. It is also entirely possible that BL is absolutely horrible and everyone hates it. This would also lead to TLS being overly negative about BL. But I think the former explanation (about sociological factors impacting the sample) is also valid to consider.

[bk1]

Not at all disagreeing with anything that's been said but just curious as to what people think of as being better in terms of professional employment experiences? Many people in consulting/ibanking are miserable, "start ups" are the in thing but i'd say its mostly people chasing fluff. Again, defintely agree that it's not work going into 6 figure debt if you are going to end up beind miserable/hating your life etc., but curious to see if people have had professional experiences they genuinely loved/were excited about for longer than a 3 month internship

I think the real problem (that rayiner alluded to earlier) is that there's not a whole lot left in the middle. With America shifting towards a more service economy, you're seeing fewer middle class jobs and more and more service jobs. So it's not really a common option for people to start at a chill 50k job with upward mobility straight out of UG. There's a reason a lot of millennials are moving back in with their parents.

[bk1]

Ah the old "TLS is bunch of basement dwellers" trope. Love it.

[Theopliske8711]

I wonder to what extent some of my friends doing biglaw are happy or unhappy. They seem contended with their choice, except when they get a few drinks in and beginning to sigh about shit at work, but I'm not too sure if that's the veneer slipping or if they are just engaging in the generic "shit sucks, I'm drunk" thing.

[09042014]

The only people I know who like big law are fundamentally broken people. The sort who'd make any job 80 hours a week. And even those people don't really like it all that much.

I know a couple people who like it but they are in patent lit, which seems a little different.

In my experience us patent lit people are way "weirder" or nerdier, but much nicer. My bosses show me respect. I thought it might just be my firm, but it might just be universal to engineers.

I think that's some of it. They all genuinely like the other attorneys they work with and all get excited over nerdy stuff. Also really weird and socially stunted, but not assholes.

People at my firm always joke about how the IP team rolls in a big group together, but we are basically the only people who really honestly get along, each lunch together, etc. etc.

Also, lawyers are huge fucking nerds. They just think they aren't. Sorry, if you have an opinion on whether a period should be italicized, you are are huge fucking nerd. The worst sort.

And they are just as awkward, but isn't of a shy way, its the aggressively douche and pretentious way.