The Issue with USC vs. Fordham (GW, BU, BC, etc) Forum

[mi-chan17]

I'm from LA, but I don't particularly enjoy it. I do, however, like San francisco, but I figured that was going to be a tough move from USC, so I was pretty much only basing my Fordham/USC choice on NYC/LA. If I thought I could get SF out of USC, I guess that might sway me a bit. Personally, I only applied to Fordham on a lark and I am a little bit amazed that I am considering it as strongly as I am, but here we are. It's relatively cheap and the LST seems comparable to the schools mentioned in this thread (USC/BC/BU/GW).

What a quandary.

Not Tiago, but from California and went to law school back east. I wouldn't tell someone to go to USC if their primary goal was to end up practicing in the Bay Area, given that that's in Berkeley and Stanford's backyards, in addition to being one of the toughest "big" markets to crack. I do think, however, that USC gives you a better shot at SF than Fordham does. All other things being equal, that might be something to think about.

Based on your other thread, though, I'm not entirely convinced all other things are equal.* So how much that slight increase in negligible chances at SF is worth to you is something I can't really judge.

* I'm not entirely clear on the true COAs and on how much you like or dislike LA and NYC. The former is key information, and the latter is at least relevant.

[Princetonlaw68]

I'd just like to add that I think all of these schools are kinda bad. It doesn't make much sense to me to go to a law school that has 65% of people end up with any kind of job that requires a J.D. (And by the way, it was less than 60% for USC if you subtract school funded jobs for the most recent year. The supposed "best" of these schools). Keep in mind that, once you go outside of big law, a LARGE portion of these J.D. required jobs can be 100% obtained through connections. Many people who go to law school have parents or a family friend that owns a small to mid size firm they can go work at if they strike out. If you have no prior family connections, your chances of scoring any kind of law job from a school that has 65% of students getting those jobs is well below 65%. I don't believe in accounting for this prior family connections phenomenon when talking about big law, but I do believe in it when talking about smaller firms.

[Tiago Splitter]

2. No one on TLS would recommend going to USC if you want to work outside of Southern California. USC is considered by pretty much everyone here to be a regional school and nothing more.

This thread, derailed though it may be, is very relevant to my interests as I recently started a USC vs Fordham thread. In fact, maybe my thread precipitated this one. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=228658&view=viewpoll

Tiago, if you're still here, you said that no one would recommend USC for anywhere out of Southern Cal. Does that include nor cal?
(Also, I will add that I am one of those students who can go to Fordham cheaply but did not get into NYU/Columbia.)

I'm from LA, but I don't particularly enjoy it. I do, however, like San francisco, but I figured that was going to be a tough move from USC, so I was pretty much only basing my Fordham/USC choice on NYC/LA. If I thought I could get SF out of USC, I guess that might sway me a bit. Personally, I only applied to Fordham on a lark and I am a little bit amazed that I am considering it as strongly as I am, but here we are. It's relatively cheap and the LST seems comparable to the schools mentioned in this thread (USC/BC/BU/GW).

What a quandary.

As mi-chan said, USC is far from ideal for the SF market, which is tough to crack from even the very best schools. It's certainly better than Fordham for getting into the Bay Area, but that's not saying much. If you go to USC you need to be prepared to gun for LA small law if you finish in the middle of the pack. If that doesn't work for you I'd rethink your plans.

[Big Dog]

Can someone please explain to me why USC seems to be seen as better than it really is,

You need to take off your east coast blinders and grow some critical thinking skills.

(Hint: 'SC is the ~3rd/4th best LS in the largest state in the nation. If you want to practice in SoCal, going to GWU or Fordham would be stupid, unless the latters offer a full ride.)

[Princetonlaw68]

Can someone please explain to me why USC seems to be seen as better than it really is,

You need to take off your east coast blinders and grow some critical thinking skills.

(Hint: 'SC is the ~3rd/4th best LS in the largest state in the nation. If you want to practice in SoCal, going to GWU or Fordham would be stupid, unless the latters offer a full ride.)

It doesn't matter if it's 1st or 4th in the state if you can't get a decent job from there. Have fun explaining to people that you went to the "3rd best school in the state" when you're in debt making 40k a yr in shit law or on the unemployment line.

Not to mention Fordham is also the third best school in its state, a state that has more legal positions available than California. 3rd or 4th best in the state doesn't even sound impressive on its face, it's even less impressive when you look into the employment stats a little more.

Do you go to USC or something?


(I agree that you shouldn't go to those other schools if you want to practice in SoCal, and USC is the better choice, but the best choice would usually be not wasting your money on an overrated legal institution that has the same employment stats as a law school that most people at USC would say is "bad" or "sucks.")

[Princetonlaw68]

East coast blinders? Every person from the east coast who came into this thread has agreed that USC law is believed to be much more prestigious than Fordham, even here on the east coast.

You need to use some critical thinking skills and derive your opinions from facts, not factors that you find to be impressive that really aren't (I.e. 3rd or 4th best in the state). That is laughable for multiple reasons.

[cotiger]

Is this really that difficult?

If you have literally no geographic preference, USC has a slight advantage over Fordham, but really you should just go wherever's cheaper.

If you want to be in CA though, then USC has a huge advantage. Most people considering USC desire to be in SoCal. It's like a T10 school for that goal.

If you desire to be in NY, there are many more schools better situated to get you there than Fordham, so people are less likely to recommend going there.

[Princetonlaw68]

Is this really that difficult?

If you have literally no geographic preference, USC has a slight advantage over Fordham, but really you should just go wherever's cheaper.

If you want to be in CA though, then USC has a huge advantage. Most people considering USC desire to be in SoCal. It's like a T10 school for that goal.

If you desire to be in NY, there are many more schools better situated to get you there than Fordham, so people are less likely to recommend going there.

I don't know what you mean with the T10 point, but I think any T14 is better for getting any job in any location than going to USC. Retake and get a scholly at T14. If you're independently wealthy, retake and get into any T14. There should be more responses of retake in response to the USC questions. People who want to go to Fordham are told to retake to get into a T14, the same should be said to people who want to go to USC. Both schools, frankly, are not good at all for any goal.

[cotiger]

Is this really that difficult?

If you have literally no geographic preference, USC has a slight advantage over Fordham, but really you should just go wherever's cheaper.

If you want to be in CA though, then USC has a huge advantage. Most people considering USC desire to be in SoCal. It's like a T10 school for that goal.

If you desire to be in NY, there are many more schools better situated to get you there than Fordham, so people are less likely to recommend going there.

I don't know what you mean with the T10 point, but I think any T14 is better for getting any job in any location than going to USC. Retake and get a scholly at T14. If you're independently wealthy, retake and get into any T14. There should be more responses of retake in response to the USC questions. People who want to go to Fordham are told to retake to get into a T14, the same should be said to people who want to go to USC. Both schools, frankly, are not good at all for any goal.

Da-derp. Obviously T14 is better for getting a job in general. But if you're deadset on being in SoCal (and especially if you would prefer SC non-biglaw over NYC biglaw), USC makes more sense than Cornell or GULC, especially when you take into consideration the likely money difference.

Fordhamites are told to retake because (so I've heard) there's not really such thing as NYC non-biglaw, so there's not that "I'm happy with any old nyc job" that might justify it. You're pretty much just aiming for NYC biglaw, which you can get much more easily from many schools throughout the country. Also, Fordham is stingy and Manhattan COL is high.

[Tiago Splitter]

USC's class of 2016 is going to place about 40% into biglaw plus Fedclerk. If twenty is right and they get the class size down to 150-160 entering 1L's this fall class of 2017 will do even better. It seems obvious that they just got too big during the spike in applicants and the class of 2013 paid the price. Fordham has cut class size too, although not as much, and hopefully both schools continue to do so.

[californiauser]

USC's class of 2016 is going to place about 40% into biglaw plus Fedclerk. If twenty is right and they get the class size down to 150-160 entering 1L's this fall class of 2017 will do even better. It seems obvious that they just got too big during the spike in applicants and the class of 2013 paid the price. Fordham has cut class size too, although not as much, and hopefully both schools continue to do so.

I'm sure they will decrease the 1L class size, followed by accepting 75+ transfers to pay their $73k sticker cost of attendance.

[Princetonlaw68]

Is this really that difficult?

If you have literally no geographic preference, USC has a slight advantage over Fordham, but really you should just go wherever's cheaper.

If you want to be in CA though, then USC has a huge advantage. Most people considering USC desire to be in SoCal. It's like a T10 school for that goal.

If you desire to be in NY, there are many more schools better situated to get you there than Fordham, so people are less likely to recommend going there.

I don't know what you mean with the T10 point, but I think any T14 is better for getting any job in any location than going to USC. Retake and get a scholly at T14. If you're independently wealthy, retake and get into any T14. There should be more responses of retake in response to the USC questions. People who want to go to Fordham are told to retake to get into a T14, the same should be said to people who want to go to USC. Both schools, frankly, are not good at all for any goal.

Da-derp. Obviously T14 is better for getting a job in general. But if you're deadset on being in SoCal (and especially if you would prefer SC non-biglaw over NYC biglaw), USC makes more sense than Cornell or GULC, especially when you take into consideration the likely money difference.

Fordhamites are told to retake because (so I've heard) there's not really such thing as NYC non-biglaw, so there's not that "I'm happy with any old nyc job" that might justify it. You're pretty much just aiming for NYC biglaw, which you can get much more easily from many schools throughout the country. Also, Fordham is stingy and Manhattan COL is high.

According to the stats, it seems there's about the same percentage of Fordham grads getting jobs at law firms that aren't "big law" as there are USC grads getting those same jobs (in dif locations of course). What you're saying is a classic "anti-fordhamite" but pro-USCer thing to say. USC is not notably better than Fordham overall in any way, outside of location preferences. If you want SoCal then it's better to pick USC over Fordham, but these people should just know that the cost benefit-analysis works out roughly the same for going to USC or Fordham. Going to USC is not a better financial investment than going to Fordham. They are peers.

[cotiger]

Is this really that difficult?

If you have literally no geographic preference, USC has a slight advantage over Fordham, but really you should just go wherever's cheaper.

If you want to be in CA though, then USC has a huge advantage. Most people considering USC desire to be in SoCal. It's like a T10 school for that goal.

If you desire to be in NY, there are many more schools better situated to get you there than Fordham, so people are less likely to recommend going there.

I don't know what you mean with the T10 point, but I think any T14 is better for getting any job in any location than going to USC. Retake and get a scholly at T14. If you're independently wealthy, retake and get into any T14. There should be more responses of retake in response to the USC questions. People who want to go to Fordham are told to retake to get into a T14, the same should be said to people who want to go to USC. Both schools, frankly, are not good at all for any goal.

Da-derp. Obviously T14 is better for getting a job in general. But if you're deadset on being in SoCal (and especially if you would prefer SC non-biglaw over NYC biglaw), USC makes more sense than Cornell or GULC, especially when you take into consideration the likely money difference.

Fordhamites are told to retake because (so I've heard) there's not really such thing as NYC non-biglaw, so there's not that "I'm happy with any old nyc job" that might justify it. You're pretty much just aiming for NYC biglaw, which you can get much more easily from many schools throughout the country. Also, Fordham is stingy and Manhattan COL is high.

According to the stats, it seems there's about the same percentage of Fordham grads getting jobs at law firms that aren't "big law" as there are USC grads getting those same jobs (in dif locations of course). What you're saying is a classic "anti-fordhamite" but pro-USCer thing to say. USC is not notably better than Fordham overall in any way, outside of location preferences. If you want SoCal then it's better to pick USC over Fordham, but these people should just know that the cost benefit-analysis works out roughly the same for going to USC or Fordham. Going to USC is not a better financial investment than going to Fordham. They are peers.

Are you seriously not understanding me? Not saying they aren't similar schools, dude. I am not (repeat, not) saying that USC's overall placement is markedly superior to Fordham's. Just that there's more scenarios where USC is ultimately the best option for someone's goals. SoCal is a harder market to get into than NY, and that enhances the value of the local school if that location is your goal. Forham doesn't get that same boost because you can get NYC with no ties from such a large number of schools.

If this is still confusing, let me give you a common example.

Applicant A (168/3.7): Desires to work in LA. Gets $60k at Cornell, $45k at Michigan, and $120k at USC. He should probably go to USC. Yes, Cornell and Mich will give him better overall prospects, but if he really wants to work in LA, that's unlikely from those schools.

Applicant B (168/3.7): Desires to work in NYC. Gets $60k at Cornell, $45k at Michigan, and $90k at Fordham. He should absolutely go to Cornell, and even Mich would be a better option. Even if Fordham weren't so stingy and gave $120k (which they apparently don't), it still doesn't make sense to go to Fordham because the path to NYC from those other schools is relatively easy.

Btw, the no nyc non-biglaw was referring to the impression that I've gotten that those jobs are in LI or other random less-desirable places. Caveat: no first hand experience, though.

[Caesar Salad]

Not to mention Fordham is also the third best school in its state, a state that has more legal positions available than California

I don't really want to get involved, it's pretty clear that OP is just interested in shitting on USC, ignoring posters rationally explaining why SC is the right choice in some circumstances, repeating himself, etc. But just curious, which is Fordham better than: Columbia, Cornell, or NYU?

[Princetonlaw68]

Is this really that difficult?



If you want to be in CA though, then USC has a huge advantage. Most people considering USC desire to be in SoCal. It's like a T10 school for that goal.

If you desire to be in NY, there are many more schools better situated to get you there than Fordham, so people are less likely to recommend going there.

I don't know what you mean with the T10 point, but I think any T14 is better for getting any job in any location than going to USC. Retake and get a scholly at T14. If you're independently wealthy, retake and get into any T14. There should be more responses of retake in response to the USC questions. People who want to go to Fordham are told to retake to get into a T14, the same should be said to people who want to go to USC. Both schools, frankly, are not good at all for any goal.

Da-derp. Obviously T14 is better for getting a job in general. But if you're deadset on being in SoCal (and especially if you would prefer SC non-biglaw over NYC biglaw), USC makes more sense than Cornell or GULC, especially when you take into consideration the likely money difference.

Fordhamites are told to retake because (so I've heard) there's not really such thing as NYC non-biglaw, so there's not that "I'm happy with any old nyc job" that might justify it. You're pretty much just aiming for NYC biglaw, which you can get much more easily from many schools throughout the country. Also, Fordham is stingy and Manhattan COL is high.

According to the stats, it seems there's about the same percentage of Fordham grads getting jobs at law firms that aren't "big law" as there are USC grads getting those same jobs (in dif locations of course). What you're saying is a classic "anti-fordhamite" but pro-USCer thing to say. USC is not notably better than Fordham overall in any way, outside of location preferences. If you want SoCal then it's better to pick USC over Fordham, but these people should just know that the cost benefit-analysis works out roughly the same for going to USC or Fordham. Going to USC is not a better financial investment than going to Fordham. They are peers.

Are you seriously not understanding me? Not saying they aren't similar schools, dude. I am not (repeat, not) saying that USC's overall placement is markedly superior to Fordham's. Just that there's more scenarios where USC is ultimately the best option for someone's goals. SoCal is a harder market to get into than NY, and that enhances the value of the local school if that location is your goal. Forham doesn't get that same boost because you can get NYC with no ties from such a large number of schools.

If this is still confusing, let me give you a common example.

Applicant A (168/3.7): Desires to work in LA. Gets $60k at Cornell, $45k at Michigan, and $120k at USC. He should probably go to USC. Yes, Cornell and Mich will give him better overall prospects, but if he really wants to work in LA, that's unlikely from those schools.

Applicant B (168/3.7): Desires to work in NYC. Gets $60k at Cornell, $45k at Michigan, and $90k at Fordham. He should absolutely go to Cornell, and even Mich would be a better option. Even if Fordham weren't so stingy and gave $120k (which they apparently don't), it still doesn't make sense to go to Fordham because the path to NYC from those other schools is relatively easy.

Btw, the no nyc non-biglaw was referring to the impression that I've gotten that those jobs are in LI or other random less-desirable places. Caveat: no first hand experience, though.[/quote]


Are you not understanding the part of your last statement I was addressing? You mentioned that there's not really such a thing as non-big law in NYC, as a part of a statement geared against Fordham. Do you take that back?

[cotiger]

Btw, the no nyc non-biglaw was referring to the impression that I've gotten that those jobs are in LI or other random less-desirable places. Caveat: no first hand experience, though.

Are you not understanding the part of your last statement I was addressing? You mentioned that there's not really such a thing as non-big law in NYC, as a part of a statement geared against Fordham. Do you take that back?

IME, people who want to live in SC have a fairly broad area in which they'd be content living. Someone who wants to live in nyc but then has to live out in LI is not going to be pleased. So USC for "hopefully SC biglaw, but ok with any old lawyer job in SC" makes more sense than Fordham for "hopefully NYC biglaw, but ok with any old lawyer job in nyc".

But this is an extremely minor point that I will gladly concede if it's really a big deal to you.

[Princetonlaw68]

Not to mention Fordham is also the third best school in its state, a state that has more legal positions available than California

I don't really want to get involved, it's pretty clear that OP is just interested in shitting on USC, ignoring posters rationally explaining why SC is the right choice in some circumstances, repeating himself, etc. But just curious, which is Fordham better than: Columbia, Cornell, or NYU?

Whatever, 4th best. The poster I said this to was saying USC is 3rd or 4th so it's still the same idea.

I'm not only interested in shitting on USC. I'm also trying to stick up for schools like Fordham. Don't turn your nose up at Fordham if you go to USC. It's ridiculous.

[cotiger]

Don't turn your nose up at Fordham if you go to USC. It's ridiculous.

lol there's something going on here..

op, it's ok. we're here for you. let it out.

[Princetonlaw68]

Don't turn your nose up at Fordham if you go to USC. It's ridiculous.

lol there's something going on here..

op, it's ok. we're here for you. let it out.

I'm going to a T14 next year, so I really don't care.

I will admit that I at one point considered Fordham as a possible last resort, so maybe that's part of it. I'm just tired of seeing people talk so nicely about USC and so harshly about Fordham. They're the same idea.

[cotiger]

Don't turn your nose up at Fordham if you go to USC. It's ridiculous.

lol there's something going on here..

op, it's ok. we're here for you. let it out.

I'm going to a T14 next year, so I really don't care.

I will admit that I at one point considered Fordham as a possible last resort, so maybe that's part of it. I'm just tired of seeing people talk so nicely about USC and so harshly about Fordham. They're the same idea.

well you are certainly their knight in shining armor.

[Princetonlaw68]

Don't turn your nose up at Fordham if you go to USC. It's ridiculous.

lol there's something going on here..

op, it's ok. we're here for you. let it out.

I'm going to a T14 next year, so I really don't care.

I will admit that I at one point considered Fordham as a possible last resort, so maybe that's part of it. I'm just tired of seeing people talk so nicely about USC and so harshly about Fordham. They're the same idea.

well you are certainly their knight in shining armor.

Based on your prior comments elevating USC and putting down Fordham, I'd say you're USC's knight in shining armor. Making false statement to degrade Fordham is also just strange.

[cotiger]

Based on your prior comments elevating USC and putting down Fordham, I'd say you're USC's knight in shining armor. Making false statement to degrade Fordham is also just strange.

Dude, you're missing it. I'm not elevating USC or putting down Fordham. I'm just answering your OP by pointing out that there are more scenarios where USC makes sense than where Fordham does, despite their overall placement being fairly equal.

you're oddly emotionally invested in this.

[lecsa]

ITT 0Ls talk crap to each other.

[Have you met Lydia?]

"Great minds battling it out. And I have a front row seat." - Creed Bratton

[Have you met Lydia?]

Based on your other thread, though, I'm not entirely convinced all other things are equal.* So how much that slight increase in negligible chances at SF is worth to you is something I can't really judge.

* I'm not entirely clear on the true COAs and on how much you like or dislike LA and NYC. The former is key information, and the latter is at least relevant.

COAs in my other thread are accurate, as mindboggling as they seem to be for some people.

Anyway, I just want a jerb. That's it. Not going to be picky about geography. Seems to me Fordham and USC are pretty similar, and Fordham is cheaper, so that seems to be the right call. (Was also the poll winner by a large margin.）That's assuming that NYC does not require ties, which seems to be the consensus anyway.