The fact about Racism in Biglaw Forum

[Balthy]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure there was no point in US history where blacks were disenfranchised and asians weren't. I still agree it's hard to fight against generations of compounding disadvantages and there are probably many more recent asian immigrants than black immigrants, so i get that lots of current asian americans' parents/grandparents didn't have the same problems to overcome as those of current AAs. I also think that overwhelmingly the wealthier and more educated people in third world asian countries are able to get to the US, the "brain drain" effect as it's called. So overall it doesnt make sense to compare current black americans to asian americans. Still though getting put into internment camps, chinese exclusion repeal act, etc certainly counts as disenfranchisement.

And emphasis on education can't arise in oppressed people? Are you familiar with Jews?

[hcrimson2014]

Does anyone know the statistics for how URMs are represented in top 25% of their graduating classes at law school?

HYS do not do rankings unfortunately and I don't think any of the T14 releases such stats.

[jimbeam21]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

+100000000

As an Asian, what I despise most of all is ignorant WASPs using using Asians to imply that the failure of African Americans to achieve in a field like law is b/c of inherent laziness/inadequacy.

Please don't say that's not what you were implying- everyone here can see it. Many Asians came to America in much different circumstances- as either educated, or seeking education. Furthermore, your Cambodian example is just flat out inaccurate. The Asians that you claim came from "third-world impoverished countries," such as Laotian, Hmong, and Cambodians, actually have lower education rates than blacks.

[alexrodriguez]

.

[lawhopeful10]

Does anyone know the statistics for how URMs are represented in top 25% of their graduating classes at law school?

I don't know top 25% but I remember reading URMs are statistically more likely to finish below median which makes sense since often there can be a fairly large LSAT and GPA gap compared to others in their class.

[HRomanus]

Does anyone know the statistics for how URMs are represented in top 25% of their graduating classes at law school?

HYS do not do rankings unfortunately and I don't think any of the T14 releases such stats.

What about in other T1 schools? My thought process is that URM students are admitted to schools with lower stats than the vast majority of their classmates, which would make competing with them on a curve difficult. A lower class rank would put them at a disadvantage in firm hiring. Of cours,e this assumes that uGPA and LSAT have some relation to law school success.

[jimbeam21]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

Where did I say being an Asian is easy in the US (Chinese exclusion act anyone)? I am saying that entry level position in the US is so well regulated and monitored in this generation that there is no way big law firms can dismiss an applicant simply because they do not like the colour of his skin.

To your point about Asian starting from a fresh slate, tell me how that translates into anything meaningful in a society where as far as I am aware of, pedigree does not matter until you get into the upper middle or even upper class. Also, as for the emphasis by Asian cultures on education, the point is different cultures emphasize on different things, Asians are a bit conformists while African cultures in general emphasize on individual happiness so who is to say that self selection doesn't account for some/all of the underrepresentation - studying isn't fun and biglaw is not known for its high employee satisfaction rate. Also, it is not America's fault that the African culture does not emphasize on education, African Americans' emphasis in sports and music has brought great success in those fields and couldn't you just accept that people are different and may not all want the same thing.

Finally, Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, and poor White Americans (there are more of them than any of the aforementioned minorities) are a) all discriminated against in the education system and b) all have/had limited opportunities even with education.

Wait...is this real? I really hope like hell that Harvard didn't admit you. If they did, I'm glad I'm going to Stanford and won't have to go to school with a goddamn idiot.

[Jdempewo]

You are misreading my post. By "emphasis on education" I'm referrimg to that within ethnic communities, not what law schools are doing.

im not misreading it, im saying that your contradicting yourself. on the one hand, your implying that the ethnic communities themselves don't reward or encourage education but, on the other your stating that it is not their fault. I do not believe that society's thinking still discourages minorities or blacks. I think there are anecdotal stories of that. but overall I think there is encouragement from outside the communities. and I think that society as a whole is encouraging minorities to take advantage of the educational opportunities that are out their. so I don't think the problem is with the educational system or with minorities.

[moralsentiments]

Yeah because in general Nigerian immigrants come here with wealth already, so the ones going to law school are the children of professors and doctors who came here on the "expert visas" for the most part. If you're coming from Africa you're either coming as a refugee or as an elite.

They're also coming from a culture in which they weren't a minority, people weren't taught to fear them, they weren't socialized to doubt themselves, and didn't grow up in poverty or in racialized and heavily policed ghettos. This is like asking why people in rural Appalachia can't be as successful as immigrants from Luxembourg because they're both white.

"Some immigrant groups have risen spectacularly, even when they arrived here with very little money and sometimes with little knowledge of English. "Almost 25 percent of Nigerian households make over $100,000 a year" in America, the authors point out, compared to just 11 percent of black American households.""

The author(s) Thomas Sowell is referencing are not referring to elite/educated immigrants...here's the full article so you can take from it what you will. http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowel ... 1B11twT2ZY

"people weren't taught to fear them" - you think the racist hillbillies in the south can tell the difference between a black person born in America, or one born elsewhere?

"they weren't socialized to doubt themselves" - not sure if you're talking about blacks in America being socialized BY whites/society in general to doubt themselves, or socialized by their own families to doubt themselves, but assuming you mean the former, do you think Nigerian, Caribbean, or other African immigrant children don't experience the same socialization?

"and didn't grow up in poverty or in racialized and heavily policed ghettos." - Are you joking??? Do tell me how good Nigerian children have it growing up.

"This is like asking why people in rural Appalachia can't be as successful as immigrants from Luxembourg because they're both white." - Here's another quote from the article addressing white economic mobility - "Amy Chua and Jed Rubenfeld write about America. But similar patterns can be found in England, where the white underclass seems to be stuck at the bottom, while low-income non-white immigrant children outperform them in the schools..."

The point the authors are making, and Thomas Sowell is emphasizing from what I take away from the article is that race isn't the driving factor behind economic mobility. That isn't saying that it's not a factor at all.

[lawhopeful10]

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)[/quote]
I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.[/quote]

Where did I say being an Asian is easy in the US (Chinese exclusion act anyone)? I am saying that entry level position in the US is so well regulated and monitored in this generation that there is no way big law firms can dismiss an applicant simply because they do not like the colour of his skin.

To your point about Asian starting from a fresh slate, tell me how that translates into anything meaningful in a society where as far as I am aware of, pedigree does not matter until you get into the upper middle or even upper class. Also, as for the emphasis by Asian cultures on education, the point is different cultures emphasize on different things, Asians are a bit conformists while African cultures in general emphasize on individual happiness so who is to say that self selection doesn't account for some/all of the underrepresentation - studying isn't fun and biglaw is not known for its high employee satisfaction rate. Also, it is not America's fault that the African culture does not emphasize on education, African Americans' emphasis in sports and music has brought great success in those fields and couldn't you just accept that people are different and may not all want the same thing.

Finally, Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, and poor White Americans (there are more of them than any of the aforementioned minorities) are a) all discriminated against in the education system and b) all have/had limited opportunities even with education.[/quote]

Wait...is this real? I really hope like hell that Harvard didn't admit you. If they did, I'm so fucking glad I'm not going to school with a goddamn idiot.[/quote]


I don't have any info on the African cultures emphasizing happiness part but if your problem is with Asian cultures being considered "conformist" that is fairly known. I was looking up the culture in japan online like a week ago randomly and many sources will say that, at least compares to the US.

[worldtraveler]

Yeah because in general Nigerian immigrants come here with wealth already, so the ones going to law school are the children of professors and doctors who came here on the "expert visas" for the most part. If you're coming from Africa you're either coming as a refugee or as an elite.

They're also coming from a culture in which they weren't a minority, people weren't taught to fear them, they weren't socialized to doubt themselves, and didn't grow up in poverty or in racialized and heavily policed ghettos. This is like asking why people in rural Appalachia can't be as successful as immigrants from Luxembourg because they're both white.

"Some immigrant groups have risen spectacularly, even when they arrived here with very little money and sometimes with little knowledge of English. "Almost 25 percent of Nigerian households make over $100,000 a year" in America, the authors point out, compared to just 11 percent of black American households.""

The author(s) Thomas Sowell is referencing are not referring to elite/educated immigrants...here's the full article so you can take from it what you will. http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowel ... 1B11twT2ZY

"people weren't taught to fear them" - you think the racist hillbillies in the south can tell the difference between a black person born in America, or one born elsewhere?

"they weren't socialized to doubt themselves" - not sure if you're talking about blacks in America being socialized BY whites/society in general to doubt themselves, or socialized by their own families to doubt themselves, but assuming you mean the former, do you think Nigerian, Caribbean, or other African immigrant children don't experience the same socialization?

"and didn't grow up in poverty or in racialized and heavily policed ghettos." - Are you joking??? Do tell me how good Nigerian children have it growing up.

"This is like asking why people in rural Appalachia can't be as successful as immigrants from Luxembourg because they're both white." - Here's another quote from the article addressing white economic mobility - "Amy Chua and Jed Rubenfeld write about America. But similar patterns can be found in England, where the white underclass seems to be stuck at the bottom, while low-income non-white immigrant children outperform them in the schools..."

The point the authors are making, and Thomas Sowell is emphasizing from what I take away from the article is that race isn't the driving factor behind economic mobility. That isn't saying that it's not a factor at all.

Please show me some examples of Nigerian immigrants living among racist white hillbillies.

[jimbeam21]

I'm checking out of this thread. The amount of idiocy is unbelievable. The OPs point is proven.

[phireblast]

As a white man I step into the white corporate world interview and give them a *wink *wink "psssttt... I'm white!"
Instantly hired.

[hcrimson2014]

All these white people saying, "you black, you have it good" "what the hell are you talking about?
..... Are any of you black? You know what it's like to step foot in the white corporate world with black skin? I'll tell you it's not easy.

All else being equal (aka extracurricular, ps, LOR etc), African Americans can get into HYS with a 169 and 3.6, yet they are still underrepresented in law schools. Sometimes, it is not society's fault and blaming it on society does not change the situation. (African Americans have been "fighting" for equal treatments for years yet they are still underrepresented in academia and tech and medicine and corporations, Asians rarely whined about racism yet they are so overrepresented in those fields that schools have to use reverse affirmative action to curb Asian enrollment. Also most Asians came from impoverished 3rd world countries only one or two generations ago, while most African Americans have been living in a 1st world country where the worst situation is likely better than the best situation in Cambodia for over 5 generations.)

I say this as an Asian:

That's because Asians were not systematically disenfranchised for over two centuries, idiot. Sure, many Asian immigrants came from poverty and had to start from scratch but that's precisely what put them in a better position than blacks, being able to start from a clean slate. Also many Asian immigrants were educated themselves or at least came from cultures that rewarded education. That sort of emphasis on education cannot arise in an oppressed people who a) were discriminated against in the education system, and b) had limited opportunities even with education.

ETA: Being Asian in America ain't easy either. But it's one thing to fight against prejudices and another to say that blacks are whiny.

+100000000

As an Asian, what I despise most of all is ignorant WASPs using using Asians to imply that the failure of African Americans to achieve in a field like law is b/c of inherent laziness/inadequacy.

Please don't say that's not what you were implying- everyone here can see it. Many Asians came to America in much different circumstances- as either educated, or seeking education. Furthermore, your Cambodian example is just flat out inaccurate. The Asians that you claim came from "third-world impoverished countries," such as Laotian, Hmong, and Cambodians, actually have lower education rates than blacks.

Firstly, I am not White and certainly not WASP, I am Asian just like you. My argument is that different cultures have different emphases that can have profound effects on the pyche and the incentive systems of the members in those cultures which lead to varying metrics of measuring success and motivate African American people perhaps disproportionately to serve for the cause of social justice and not biglaw. As such, their underrepresentation in biglaw is not the consequence of prejudice in biglaw hirings. Secondly, I really do not want to get into a fight on affirmative actions but since the Laotians, Hmongs, and Cambodians have such a low education level, why couldn't they benefit from affirmative action, isn't this a classic example of discrimination where the education system disenfranchises the Laotians, Hmongs, and Cambodians in favour of other groups who do benefit from affirmative actions.

edited to correct for grammar.

[urbanecologie]

Let's face it, the EEOC's data is hardly focused on that of African-Americans and nor is any of the other mainstream literature in this area. African-Americans are ridiculously underrepresented in mid/small law, and big-law, though better, is not far behind. The data is all here and it's remarkably unfair for those of us who are trying to enter a field dominated by white males with implicit racial biases. Is there really a point for an African-American like me to shoot for HYS?

http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/rep ... wfirms.pdf

Racism--not to mention sexism and homophobia--is pervasive in all rungs of society. It's not Big Law specific. I work at a mid-level firm--associates start at $145,000--and I can easily give you a list of micro aggressions that I've witnessed here. However, so can my friends who work on the Hill and in consulting. So can my friends who are still waiting tables.

Just work hard and try to avoid the land mines. Seek out a mentor at your firm, in a professional organization, anywhere! If a situation becomes intractable, find a new one. Make sure you have friends who can relate. Avoid threads like this one.

Racism hasn't stopped you yet, so it certainly won't stop you now.

[worldtraveler]

To get back more to the OP's point (assuming he/she was actually wanting a serious discussion):

I don't think the problem is so much that black law students can't get offers at big law firms. It's arguable but they may actually have more opportunities given that many firms have 1L summer programs or 2L programs specifically trying to increase the diversity at a firm.

But many don't stay at firms as long as their peers. As to why this is, it's probably a lot of reasons. Some of it may be racism in not getting promoted as often, or just not feeling comfortable in an environment that probably feels a bit hostile. It's also possible that black lawyers are more likely to want to leave and pursue other careers in public interest, etc.

It is pretty clear though that law firms are really a world where rich white men dominate, and it's a club that's hard to enter for a lot of people who don't have the right "fit". I've heard from people who were first generation college students, people of color, women, LGBT, the list goes on that law firms can be a tough club to fit into. One friend at a firm said that that one client actually complained there were too many women and "coloreds" staffed on a case. Old boys' clubs don't just go away easily.

I think there are some firms though that are better than others. Some have established mentorship programs for women and minorities, or go out of their way to recruit a diverse staff. Some firms also have far higher rates of lawyers of color or women in leadership roles, which in my view is probably not a good sign that it's not a hostile environment.

[jimbeam21]

Firstly, I am not White and certainly not WASP, I am Asian just like you. My argument is that different cultures have different emphasis and that slargely affects the pyche and the incentive system of the members in those cultures which leads varying metrics of measuring success and motivates African American people perhaps disproportionately to serve for the cause of social justice and their underrepresentation in biglaw is not the consequence of prejudice in biglaw hirings. Secondly, I really do not want to get into a fight on affirmative actions but since the Laotians, Hmongs, and Cambodians have such a low education level, why couldn't they benefit from affirmative action, isn't this a classic example of discrimination where the education system disenfranchises the Laotians, Hmongs, and Cambodians in favour of other groups who do benefit from affirmative actions.

I do think they should benefit from affirmative action. But they won't because law schools simply report "Asian-Americans" as a group, and there's plenty of those to go around. That's a whole separate issue.

But lumping all Asians under one umbrella identity and using their perceived success to imply that barriers for African Americans in the corporate world are minimal is just flat out wrong and makes you sound like 1. an uneducated POS from the South or 2. a WASPY prep-school baby whose only experience with diversity is when you get your shoes shined by a poor black guy in the airport

[worldtraveler]

Firstly, I am not White and certainly not WASP, I am Asian just like you. My argument is that different cultures have different emphasis and that slargely affects the pyche and the incentive system of the members in those cultures which leads varying metrics of measuring success and motivates African American people perhaps disproportionately to serve for the cause of social justice and their underrepresentation in biglaw is not the consequence of prejudice in biglaw hirings. Secondly, I really do not want to get into a fight on affirmative actions but since the Laotians, Hmongs, and Cambodians have such a low education level, why couldn't they benefit from affirmative action, isn't this a classic example of discrimination where the education system disenfranchises the Laotians, Hmongs, and Cambodians in favour of other groups who do benefit from affirmative actions.

I do think they should benefit from affirmative action. But they won't because law schools simply report "Asian-Americans" as a group, and there's plenty of those to go around. That's a whole separate issue.

But lumping all Asians under one umbrella identity and using their perceived success to imply that barriers for African Americans in the corporate world are minimal is just flat out wrong and makes you sound like 1. an uneducated POS from the South or 2. a WASPY prep-school baby whose only experience with diversity is when you get your shoes shined by a poor black guy in the airport

I think hcrimson might be an ESL speaker, which could partially explain the bad ideas.

[Jdempewo]

To get back more to the OP's point (assuming he/she was actually wanting a serious discussion):

I don't think the problem is so much that black law students can't get offers at big law firms. It's arguable but they may actually have more opportunities given that many firms have 1L summer programs or 2L programs specifically trying to increase the diversity at a firm.

But many don't stay at firms as long as their peers. As to why this is, it's probably a lot of reasons. Some of it may be racism in not getting promoted as often, or just not feeling comfortable in an environment that probably feels a bit hostile. It's also possible that black lawyers are more likely to want to leave and pursue other careers in public interest, etc.

It is pretty clear though that law firms are really a world where rich white men dominate, and it's a club that's hard to enter for a lot of people who don't have the right "fit". I've heard from people who were first generation college students, people of color, women, LGBT, the list goes on that law firms can be a tough club to fit into. One friend at a firm said that that one client actually complained there were too many women and "coloreds" staffed on a case. Old boys' clubs don't just go away easily.

I think there are some firms though that are better than others. Some have established mentorship programs for women and minorities, or go out of their way to recruit a diverse staff. Some firms also have far higher rates of lawyers of color or women in leadership roles, which in my view is probably not a good sign that it's not a hostile environment.

I think this is the most intelligent thing I've read in this thread.

[hcrimson2014]

Firstly, I am not White and certainly not WASP, I am Asian just like you. My argument is that different cultures have different emphasis and that slargely affects the pyche and the incentive system of the members in those cultures which leads varying metrics of measuring success and motivates African American people perhaps disproportionately to serve for the cause of social justice and their underrepresentation in biglaw is not the consequence of prejudice in biglaw hirings. Secondly, I really do not want to get into a fight on affirmative actions but since the Laotians, Hmongs, and Cambodians have such a low education level, why couldn't they benefit from affirmative action, isn't this a classic example of discrimination where the education system disenfranchises the Laotians, Hmongs, and Cambodians in favour of other groups who do benefit from affirmative actions.

I do think they should benefit from affirmative action. But they won't because law schools simply report "Asian-Americans" as a group, and there's plenty of those to go around. That's a whole separate issue.

But lumping all Asians under one umbrella identity and using their perceived success to imply that barriers for African Americans in the corporate world are minimal is just flat out wrong and makes you sound like 1. an uneducated POS from the South or 2. a WASPY prep-school baby whose only experience with diversity is when you get your shoes shined by a poor black guy in the airport

I think hcrimson might be an ESL speaker, which could partially explain the bad ideas.

Isn't it a bit prejudiced for you to imply that non English speakers or ESL speakers (I am neither) cannot have good ideas? Especially since you seem to be socially liberal. Also, just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean that they are wrong. I certainly could be wrong but try to disapprove my arguments or the arguments of others who disagree with op by using facts and logic and not sensationalist rhetoric.

[moralsentiments]

Please show me some examples of Nigerian immigrants living among racist white hillbillies.

You're not understanding what I'm saying...

You said that immigrants (Nigerian/Caribbean, etc.) don't have the experience of being in a society where people were taught to fear them...what I'm asking is that, assuming what you say is true about this widespread teaching to fear blacks (which I don't agree with your premise in the first place, but for the sake of argument), do you think that black immigrants don't face that same experience upon moving to the U.S.? Whether they are 30 years old or 2 years old, once they're here in the U.S. are they not exposed to that same sense of fear coming from those around them? Are they not subjected to the same hiring manager who is too "afraid" to hire them? Or the same white families who are to "afraid" to live in the same neighborhood? The point the article is making is that they experience this just the same, and it doesn't affect their economic mobility to the same degree as native born black Americans. That's what my reference to hillbillies was about. Not LITERAL hillbillies from Mississippi, I was making the point that those who are racist or "fear" blacks aren't going to selectively fear native born blacks any more than non-native blacks. So why is one worse off? To your next point...

You said that immigrant blacks are not socialized to doubt themselves. Again, assuming your premise is correct that black Americans are in fact socialized to doubt themselves, why does this not apply to immigrants? Does a 30 year old Nigerian immigrant not encounter that socialization in America? What about the 2 year old who is raised in America? Does he/she not experience that socialization? I'm assuming you believe that this socialization comes from society in general, so are these immigrants who share the same racial qualities as those being socialized to doubt themselves not also being socialized to doubt themselves in our society? If not, why not? If so, why does this not affect their economic mobility to the same degree as native born black Americans?

You then talk about poverty. Do you think those Nigerian or Caribbean immigrants come from wealth? Compared to what? Not to mention that the article was specifically referencing low-income immigrants with the added difficulty of a language barrier. They may not come from a place where they face racial discrimination, but that doesn't mean that they don't face racial discrimination upon arriving in the U.S. So then, the question the article is addressing is why do these immigrants with the same racial makeup, who face the same socialization, discrimination (both real and perceived), and the same poverty have different degrees of economic mobility than native born black Americans.

Again, it's not saying that race isn't a factor, it's making the case that race isn't the driving factor behind black economic mobility in this country.

[bk1]

And it looks like OP is a troll.