Yeah,I think the 'professions' are now reserved for the rich. It's funny that posters on here think a lot of people pay for law schools themselves. A lot of T-14 students are children of wealthy businessmen; biglaw partners; celebrities etc. They aren't paying for anything. And I know a good handful of these people went into PI because they could afford to since they didn't have loans. (Again, funny, since a lot of people on here think that poor people paying with loans go into PI. A lot of them are rich kids who don't have to worry about living off 50k in a big city.)NYSprague wrote:I had no law school debt because my dad left me money for education, I spent almost none of it on undergrad, and I lived at home. But, without that money, I would never have gone to law school. Not a single person in my family would have supported me taking on a hundred thousand dollars in non-dischargeable debt for a degree that might lead nowhere.lecsa wrote:
Half my friends had their parents pay all their tuition and costs after whatever scholarships they got. These rich kids had no idea what law school forums are and they don't waste time on these. So of course the poor people (people taking out loans) will be over-represented on this forum. Expect that close to half of your classmates will be rich.
I am still shocked that people are willing to take on all that debt and that risk just to be a lawyer. When I was spending time on TLS, I concluded that for many people, it really comes down to the lure of a six figure salary. I know people make all these spreadsheets and calculations, but those calculations are all dollar driven, no one quantifies the stress of debt or how fucking hard law can be sometimes or what happens if you hate your job, get stealthed, or, even at a seemingly solid biglaw firm like Dewey, have a criminal conspiracy running the books at the firm. Not to mention catastrophic economic events which happen from time to time.
There are so many other jobs, I guess I will never get the desire to pile on huge amounts of debt and invest 3 years of your life, for law. Do something else that won't cost you three hundreds thousand dollars. That is just so much money. It is bordering on criminal that law schools get away with charging so much. Medical schools at least can claim they need expensive stuff to teach.
So if I didn't have a way to go to law school, I would have found another job and career path. Just because the government will fund an extravagant education, that doesn't mean you need to go.
/end rant
The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker Forum
-
- Posts: 275
- Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:36 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Last edited by lecsa on Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
- aboutmydaylight
- Posts: 580
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:50 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.Pneumonia wrote:again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.
-
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
A friend of mine took an in-house job at a large, world-famous museum in the city. She was the only person who worked there in any sort of management position who didn't have a trust fund. So the museum payed horribly low salaries. No one needed the money. People who needed the money couldn't afford to work there. She told me a story of someone who worked for over a year and had been accidentally grossly overpaid. When they went to discuss this matter and why it wasn't reported, the person sheepishly opened a desk drawer and all the years worth of unopened pay checks were just sitting there. He hadn't even bothered to look at them.lecsa wrote:Agree with you. I think the 'professions' are now reserved for the rich. It's funny that posters on here think a lot of people pay for law schools themselves. I went to school with children of wealthy businessmen; biglaw partners; celebrities etc. They aren't paying for anything. And a good handful of these people went into PI because they could afford to since they didn't have loans. (Again, funny, since a lot of people on here think that poor people paying with loans go into PI. A lot of them are rich kids who don't have to worry about living off 50k in a big city.)NYSprague wrote:I had no law school debt because my dad left me money for education, I spent almost none of it on undergrad, and I lived at home. But, without that money, I would never have gone to law school. Not a single person in my family would have supported me taking on a hundred thousand dollars in non-dischargeable debt for a degree that might lead nowhere.lecsa wrote:
Half my friends had their parents pay all their tuition and costs after whatever scholarships they got. These rich kids had no idea what law school forums are and they don't waste time on these. So of course the poor people (people taking out loans) will be over-represented on this forum. Expect that close to half of your classmates will be rich.
I am still shocked that people are willing to take on all that debt and that risk just to be a lawyer. When I was spending time on TLS, I concluded that for many people, it really comes down to the lure of a six figure salary. I know people make all these spreadsheets and calculations, but those calculations are all dollar driven, no one quantifies the stress of debt or how fucking hard law can be sometimes or what happens if you hate your job, get stealthed, or, even at a seemingly solid biglaw firm like Dewey, have a criminal conspiracy running the books at the firm. Not to mention catastrophic economic events which happen from time to time.
There are so many other jobs, I guess I will never get the desire to pile on huge amounts of debt and invest 3 years of your life, for law. Do something else that won't cost you three hundreds thousand dollars. That is just so much money. It is bordering on criminal that law schools get away with charging so much. Medical schools at least can claim they need expensive stuff to teach.
So if I didn't have a way to go to law school, I would have found another job and career path. Just because the government will fund an extravagant education, that doesn't mean you need to go.
/end rant
-
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
If the kids parents won't help, they shouldn't go. Obviously the parents feel that HYS law is a bad use of resources. Time to look at a different plan. Maybe the parents will kick in; maybe they won't. Like I said, no one I know would have suggested that I go to law school if I had to take on massive debt. It just doesn't make sense to start out 6 figures of debt in the hole. Maybe some rich parents realize that law school is a bad investment.aboutmydaylight wrote:HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.Pneumonia wrote:again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.
- FuriousDuck
- Posts: 507
- Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
...
Last edited by FuriousDuck on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Want to continue reading?
Register now to search topics and post comments!
Absolutely FREE!
Already a member? Login
- aboutmydaylight
- Posts: 580
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:50 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
The only solution is to steal your parents money.FuriousDuck wrote:I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.
- aboutmydaylight
- Posts: 580
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:50 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Sure, but you were in the fortunate situation where you had funds your parents had left you for education. The vast majority of people don't have that option. I'm curious, could you have used that money if you didn't spend it on school, or was it a take it or leave it type deal? If its the former, then I don't see how that's any different than taking on debt. After accounting for the time value of money, any psychological aspects of being in debt, interest, etc, you could end up in the same place in the long run. If its the later, then its not exactly a hard choice to make if the money is going to disappear if you don't use it.NYSprague wrote:If the kids parents won't help, they shouldn't go. Obviously the parents feel that HYS law is a bad use of resources. Time to look at a different plan. Maybe the parents will kick in; maybe they won't. Like I said, no one I know would have suggested that I go to law school if I had to take on massive debt. It just doesn't make sense to start out 6 figures of debt in the hole. Maybe some rich parents realize that law school is a bad investment.aboutmydaylight wrote:HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.Pneumonia wrote:again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.
- FuriousDuck
- Posts: 507
- Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
...
Last edited by FuriousDuck on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- redsox
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:40 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Neither a borrower nor a lender be,FuriousDuck wrote:I don't know if I'll go that far. I'm thinking I'll just con them into some agreement that's really favorable to me.aboutmydaylight wrote:The only solution is to steal your parents money.FuriousDuck wrote:I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.
For loan oft loses both itself and friend...
- FuriousDuck
- Posts: 507
- Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
...
Last edited by FuriousDuck on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- cinephile
- Posts: 3461
- Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:50 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
A friend of mine "owes" her parents about $300,000. I very much doubt that it will ever be repaid. Especially since her father is in his mid-70s. They must know she can't/won't pay them back and just consider this loan as an early inheritance.FuriousDuck wrote:So, the question is what's worse: owing money to family or to the government?
- FuriousDuck
- Posts: 507
- Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
...
Last edited by FuriousDuck on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- moopness
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:56 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Was seriously surprised to see DF as the op. He is one of the first people I would expect to give an op shit for posting yet another "fundamental problem" thread.
Register now!
Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.
It's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Only for education. My dad didn't want us pissing it away on other stuff.aboutmydaylight wrote:Sure, but you were in the fortunate situation where you had funds your parents had left you for education. The vast majority of people don't have that option. I'm curious, could you have used that money if you didn't spend it on school, or was it a take it or leave it type deal? If its the former, then I don't see how that's any different than taking on debt. After accounting for the time value of money, any psychological aspects of being in debt, interest, etc, you could end up in the same place in the long run. If its the later, then its not exactly a hard choice to make if the money is going to disappear if you don't use it.NYSprague wrote:If the kids parents won't help, they shouldn't go. Obviously the parents feel that HYS law is a bad use of resources. Time to look at a different plan. Maybe the parents will kick in; maybe they won't. Like I said, no one I know would have suggested that I go to law school if I had to take on massive debt. It just doesn't make sense to start out 6 figures of debt in the hole. Maybe some rich parents realize that law school is a bad investment.aboutmydaylight wrote:HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.Pneumonia wrote:again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.
You are the first person I've known who found my Dad dying young as a fortunate situation.
- Cicero76
- Posts: 1284
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
At 40k a year, you're looking at about 140-150k in debt at graduation.aboutmydaylight wrote:HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.Pneumonia wrote:again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.
I get that debt sucks and all, but that's really not that bad a price for an HYS degree. The only people paying sticker should be able to afford it unless their parents are boomer sticklers
-
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Maybe look at it as you can't afford to go. Figure out a good alternate planFuriousDuck wrote:I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.
How prestige obsessed are they? If you tell them you don't want to be that much in debt, so you are finding another career or you are going to a low ranked school instead, what would they do?
-
- Posts: 18203
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
this thread was meant to be a joke. The sort of stupid joke I find hilariousmoopness wrote:Was seriously surprised to see DF as the op. He is one of the first people I would expect to give an op shit for posting yet another "fundamental problem" thread.
Get unlimited access to all forums and topics
Register now!
I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Didn't see DF was the OP.Desert Fox wrote:this thread was meant to be a joke. The sort of stupid joke I find hilariousmoopness wrote:Was seriously surprised to see DF as the op. He is one of the first people I would expect to give an op shit for posting yet another "fundamental problem" thread.
- KatyMarie
- Posts: 616
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:16 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Oh come off it. Seriously. Are they going to take your house or destroy your credit because you didn't pay back your interest-free loan in a timely manner? No. If you can "borrow" this kind of money from your parents, then don't even worry about it. Worst case scenario-> You have trouble paying it back and they give you shit for it. I'm sure they're not going to expect you to pay if you're unemployed or underemployed. They have enough money to bankroll your education and are probably just going down the "bootstraps" route because that's what they think they should do to "build your character" or whatever.NYSprague wrote:Maybe look at it as you can't afford to go. Figure out a good alternate planFuriousDuck wrote:I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.
How prestige obsessed are they? If you tell them you don't want to be that much in debt, so you are finding another career or you are going to a low ranked school instead, what would they do?
- KatyMarie
- Posts: 616
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:16 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
I doubt very many of these "family loans" ever actually get paid backcinephile wrote:A friend of mine "owes" her parents about $300,000. I very much doubt that it will ever be repaid. Especially since her father is in his mid-70s. They must know she can't/won't pay them back and just consider this loan as an early inheritance.FuriousDuck wrote:So, the question is what's worse: owing money to family or to the government?

-
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:33 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Hard to know how much money they have. If the money is from a house or retirement savings, they probably want it back. Then there may be siblings who don't want so much of the pie going to one person in the family. That can get ugly.KatyMarie wrote:Oh come off it. Seriously. Are they going to take your house or destroy your credit because you didn't pay back your interest-free loan in a timely manner? No. If you can "borrow" this kind of money from your parents, then don't even worry about it. Worst case scenario-> You have trouble paying it back and they give you shit for it. I'm sure they're not going to expect you to pay if you're unemployed or underemployed. They have enough money to bankroll your education and are probably just going down the "bootstraps" route because that's what they think they should do to "build your character" or whatever.NYSprague wrote:Maybe look at it as you can't afford to go. Figure out a good alternate planFuriousDuck wrote:I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.
How prestige obsessed are they? If you tell them you don't want to be that much in debt, so you are finding another career or you are going to a low ranked school instead, what would they do?
Edit to add: i've known people who had to pay their parents back for medical school. The parents could easily have afforded the cost. They pay every month on a note. If they didn't pay, there would be huge turmoil in the family. How far the parents would go to collect the money if they defaulted is hard to predict. The parents see $300,000 as a fuckton of money.
Last edited by NYSprague on Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.
Register now, it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 1307
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:45 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
THIS. My parents are offering to pay for my education (looking at a $60,000 COA) if my grandparents (who have made the same pledge) don't come through, but I am very, very reluctant to jump into that pool.NYSprague wrote:Hard to know how much money they have. If the money is from a house or retirement savings, they probably want it back. Then there may be siblings who don't want so much of the pie going to one person in the family. That can get ugly.
- jbagelboy
- Posts: 10361
- Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
I've been making the point re: TLS & the poors & the "sticker debt" peril being very often a mythical specter due to vast family wealth and support for a large % of the entering class at T6 schools for years. It's a false dilemma that ruins many a choosing thread on this board b/c people aren't sharing all their sources of financial support.
Also people whose parents can front them $250,000 cash, regardless of whether it's guised as a loan or "college fund" or whatever, are very wealthy and need to stop pretending otherwise. It's simply disingenuous to complain about the cost your education relative to those without such generous support, since borrowing from the federal government at 7% interest is fundamentally different from borrowing from family. Sure, there may be a bourgeois crisis of emotional-financial tension but most waspy families have been shoving that shit under the rug since 1890. Your family isn't going to ruin your credit, debt-slave you, bankrupt you, garner your wages, or hold you hostage till death do us part. You're written into their will by law as an heir in most cases anyway.
Again: Wealth is highly stratified in the states. Average household cash savings tend to be in the high four-low five figures ($7000-15000). Having $200,000+ Liquid places you in a different echelon of wealth, which means it's very, very rarely independent of other sources (people who have that kind of money almost always have access to a ton more, statistically speaking). Maybe you're still a puritan shrew and you're personally frugal but that doesn't change your normative fiscal relationship to others.
All this aside, no reason to stigmatize this wealth. It's a great thing for these individuals to be able to live without the constant deeply set fear of penury. Biglaw will be far more tolerable by all accounts. And their families have every right to invest their capital, earned or inherited or traded, how they please in our market.
Also people whose parents can front them $250,000 cash, regardless of whether it's guised as a loan or "college fund" or whatever, are very wealthy and need to stop pretending otherwise. It's simply disingenuous to complain about the cost your education relative to those without such generous support, since borrowing from the federal government at 7% interest is fundamentally different from borrowing from family. Sure, there may be a bourgeois crisis of emotional-financial tension but most waspy families have been shoving that shit under the rug since 1890. Your family isn't going to ruin your credit, debt-slave you, bankrupt you, garner your wages, or hold you hostage till death do us part. You're written into their will by law as an heir in most cases anyway.
Again: Wealth is highly stratified in the states. Average household cash savings tend to be in the high four-low five figures ($7000-15000). Having $200,000+ Liquid places you in a different echelon of wealth, which means it's very, very rarely independent of other sources (people who have that kind of money almost always have access to a ton more, statistically speaking). Maybe you're still a puritan shrew and you're personally frugal but that doesn't change your normative fiscal relationship to others.
All this aside, no reason to stigmatize this wealth. It's a great thing for these individuals to be able to live without the constant deeply set fear of penury. Biglaw will be far more tolerable by all accounts. And their families have every right to invest their capital, earned or inherited or traded, how they please in our market.
- KatyMarie
- Posts: 616
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:16 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
Amen jbagelboy.jbagelboy wrote: Also people whose parents can front them $250,000 cash, regardless of whether it's guised as a loan or "college fund" or whatever, are very wealthy and need to stop pretending otherwise. It's simply disingenuous to complain about the cost your education relative to those without such generous support, since borrowing from the federal government at 7% interest is fundamentally different from borrowing from family. Sure, there may be a bourgeois crisis of emotional-financial tension but most waspy families have been shoving that shit under the rug since 1890. Your family isn't going to ruin your credit, debt-slave you, bankrupt you, garner your wages, or hold you hostage till death do us part. You're written into their will by law as an heir in most cases anyway.
-
- Posts: 275
- Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:38 pm
Re: The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker
I agree that borrowing from family is fundamentally different, and the scenarios that you are talking about, where a student is "borrowing" 250K from their parents is nothing compared to the stress of borrowing 250K from a traditional lender. But there are scenarios where borrowing from family could be just as stressful, because your inability to return the money is affecting an actual person. My father just retired and could probably loan me between 50K and 100K, if I needed it. But assuming he hangs around for a while he will, undoubtedly, need that money to pay his bills.KatyMarie wrote:Amen jbagelboy.jbagelboy wrote: Also people whose parents can front them $250,000 cash, regardless of whether it's guised as a loan or "college fund" or whatever, are very wealthy and need to stop pretending otherwise. It's simply disingenuous to complain about the cost your education relative to those without such generous support, since borrowing from the federal government at 7% interest is fundamentally different from borrowing from family. Sure, there may be a bourgeois crisis of emotional-financial tension but most waspy families have been shoving that shit under the rug since 1890. Your family isn't going to ruin your credit, debt-slave you, bankrupt you, garner your wages, or hold you hostage till death do us part. You're written into their will by law as an heir in most cases anyway.
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login