The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers Forum

[Jdempewo]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house?

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

paralegal, plumber, welder, car salesman, garbageman, human resources, office manager, etc. can all make 60k+ eventually

You should happily go to law school before doing that job. It is also 100% not 9-5. More like 8-8, 6 days a week.

Im going to law school from being a car salesman! It sucked. Hours like the biglaw everyone describes but substantially less pay. Like 50-70k.

[emitremmus]

I guess the moral of the story is that capitalism has failed us

Amen.

[ManoftheHour]

I guess the moral of the story is that capitalism has failed us

Amen.

[jimbeam21]

I guess the moral of the story is that capitalism has failed us

Amen.

I guess we should all move to France. Or Cleveland.

[lecsa]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house? Particularly, where are they for all the humanities majors applying to law school?

Not for humanities majors but accounting/ big 4 pays that starting.

Finance and accounting from good undergrads are probably a lot better than law.

Its really your fault for studying humanities. Not like business is difficult.

[Otunga]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house? Particularly, where are they for all the humanities majors applying to law school?

Not for humanities majors but accounting/ big 4 pays that starting.

Finance and accounting from good undergrads are probably a lot better than law.

Its really your fault for studying humanities. Not like business is difficult.

I don't disagree. But I thought I wanted to be a philosophy professor. Lol. When I saw JD statistics saying half of graduates on average get jobs, that sounded amazing at first.

[nouseforaname123]

paralegal - you can pick 9-5 or 60k, but you can't have both.
trade stuff - huge flame. very dependent on how much construction is going on in your city and takes a huge toll on your body. Also you need a degree of natural ability. Usually pretty difficult to get your union card.
HR - okay maybe. but HR ugh
office manger - okay this is a good job, but it takes years and some luck to get here.

Exactly. This is my point. If you're satisfied with an average, boring job, then ok, don't go to law school. But no practicing attorney on this board was satisfied with an average, boring job. These people shouldn't be complaining about how dull or tough working in a law firm is, like the poor bloke in the link from "The fundamental problem with 0L's" thread.

Who told you that you would find excitement and meaning in a legal career?

I worked in an average, boring corporate job for a F100 for 5+ years before law school (even had a 4 BR house!). I don't know what to tell you if you're under the impression that law is exciting or materially different from average, boring corporate jobs as far as boredom goes. Law can be different from your average, boring corporate job, in some ways better (money and social prestige) , in other ways worse (hours, personal sacrifice, significant stress, way it changes the vast majority of people). However, you're likely going to end up disappointed if you're expecting to find significant meaning and excitement in a legal career while making a lot of money as a practicing lawyer.

Finally, one thing you really can't account for as a 0L is how law school changes you. Like most graduates, I don't think law school was all that valuable beyond serving its function of conferring a credential. One thing law schools do well is teaching students how to issue spot. At its core, issue spotting is about recognizing problems in a given fact pattern. New grads essentially graduate trained to find things that are wrong with law school and the legal profession. You should hardly be surprised that this group feels so strongly about these issues. Once you graduate and start practicing you'll understand this much better.

[KatyMarie]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house? Particularly, where are they for all the humanities majors applying to law school?

Not for humanities majors but accounting/ big 4 pays that starting.

Finance and accounting from good undergrads are probably a lot better than law.

Its really your fault for studying humanities. Not like business is difficult.

I don't disagree. But I thought I wanted to be a philosophy professor. Lol. When I saw JD statistics saying half of graduates on average get jobs, that sounded amazing at first.

I was going to be an English professor

[20170322]

.

[burtsbees]

paralegal - you can pick 9-5 or 60k, but you can't have both.
trade stuff - huge flame. very dependent on how much construction is going on in your city and takes a huge toll on your body. Also you need a degree of natural ability. Usually pretty difficult to get your union card.
HR - okay maybe. but HR ugh
office manger - okay this is a good job, but it takes years and some luck to get here.

Exactly. This is my point. If you're satisfied with an average, boring job, then ok, don't go to law school. But no practicing attorney on this board was satisfied with an average, boring job. These people shouldn't be complaining about how dull or tough working in a law firm is, like the poor bloke in the link from "The fundamental problem with 0L's" thread.

Who told you that you would find excitement and meaning in a legal career?

I worked in an average, boring corporate job for a F100 for 5+ years before law school (even had a 4 BR house!). I don't know what to tell you if you're under the impression that law is exciting or materially different from average, boring corporate jobs as far as boredom goes. Law can be different from your average, boring corporate job, in some ways better (money and social prestige) , in other ways worse (hours, personal sacrifice, significant stress, way it changes the vast majority of people). However, you're likely going to end up disappointed if you're expecting to find significant meaning and excitement in a legal career while making a lot of money as a practicing lawyer.

That's my point. All jobs where you're getting paid well (lawyer, i-banker, doctor, engineer, etc), have the same sort of challenges in that you'll be stressed and have to make personal sacrifices. It's not unique to being a lawyer. People need to realize that you're going to have to make personal sacrifices and work shitty hours in order to get anywhere in the world- whether you're in the field of law, finance, medicine, etc. Practicing lawyers in these threads who tell 0Ls to go into engineering and such don't properly account for this. Hence, there should be much less fear-mongering like that in "The fundamental problem with 0L's" thread.

[burtsbees]

Favorite part of the OP,


"What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, AN AVERAGE LOOKING WIFE, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school."

Blatant sexism/misogyny/idiocy is blatant.

Oh please. It was hyperbole to emphasize a point. Get over yourself.

[Otunga]

Favorite part of the OP,


"What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, AN AVERAGE LOOKING WIFE, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school."

Blatant sexism/misogyny/idiocy is blatant.

Oh please. It was hyperbole to emphasize a point. Get over yourself.

It's reasonable to call it misogyny. I thought it was funny, though. Cleveland could feel equally as outed.

[NYC-WVU]

I guess the moral of the story is that capitalism has failed us

Amen.

I guess we should all move to France. Or Cleveland.

France! No shit. That new "no work email outside of 9am-6pm" law is golden.* I don't understand why America essentially has only three employment options:
1. Career path with reasonable hours, low(ish) pay that requires no education or specific talent at entry level.
2. Career path with horrible hours, but high pay that requires significant education or talent from the beginning.
3. Career path with horrible hours and low pay, with or without education/talent.

Why can't I be over-educated, work reasonable hours and max out in the low 100k range.

*Damnit! I just went to find a link for this, only to find out the media got it all wrong. No such law was passed in France. So . . . about Cleveland.

[TheSpanishMain]

That's my point. All jobs where you're getting paid well (lawyer, i-banker, doctor, engineer, etc), have the same sort of challenges in that you'll be stressed and have to make personal sacrifices. It's not unique to being a lawyer. People need to realize that you're going to have to make personal sacrifices and work shitty hours in order to get anywhere in the world- whether you're in the field of law, finance, medicine, etc. Practicing lawyers in these threads who tell 0Ls to go into engineering and such don't properly account for this. Hence, there should be much less fear-mongering like that in "The fundamental problem with 0L's" thread.

I think you're misunderstanding the consensus among grads though. No one is saying "No one should go." When someone says "Ugh, 0L's are really resistant to being told not to go" that doesn't mean that EVERY 0L should be told not to go. The ones who get told "don't go" are usually the really delusional ones who think that taking on six figures of debt at a TTT is a good idea and won't retake the LSAT because they "don't test well."

[A. Nony Mouse]

Favorite part of the OP,


"What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, AN AVERAGE LOOKING WIFE, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school."

Blatant sexism/misogyny/idiocy is blatant.

Oh please. It was hyperbole to emphasize a point. Get over yourself.

It was stupid hyperbole that pointlessly alienates a chunk of your audience. But go ahead with your straw man rant.

[Johann]

Please show me the beautiful women who will love your bald, flabby, $0 net worth, date breaking, no vacation having, nothing cool to talk about / relate to, unoriginal self who followed the herd. Maybe when you are 50 and partner you will find a golddigger who spends all your money and cheats on you.
You seem to have a grasp on how shitty the work and hours will be, but thinking your life will be better because of these sacrifices is flawed. It will not. The shittiness of your work will pollute everything decent in your life for many years.

[ManoftheHour]

Please show me the beautiful women who will love your bald, flabby, $0 net worth, date breaking, no vacation having, nothing cool to talk about / relate to, unoriginal self who followed the herd. Maybe when you are 50 and partner you will find a golddigger who spends all your money and cheats on you.
You seem to have a grasp on how shitty the work and hours will be, but thinking your life will be better because of these sacrifices is flawed. It will not. The shittiness of your work will pollute everything decent in your life for many years.

If you are bald and flabby, and have a shitty personality and are a shitty person, no one will love you period.

My pretty attractive friend is doing her last year of residency at UCI med. Her fiance is an "artist" but he's a great person to be around. It's not the 70s anymore. Women can be and are often the breadwinners.

[rad lulz]

The ontopics are such a cesspool. I don't even know why people like Rayiner and Rad lulz et al still try

Aint nothin but sumthinta do

[nouseforaname123]

paralegal - you can pick 9-5 or 60k, but you can't have both.
trade stuff - huge flame. very dependent on how much construction is going on in your city and takes a huge toll on your body. Also you need a degree of natural ability. Usually pretty difficult to get your union card.
HR - okay maybe. but HR ugh
office manger - okay this is a good job, but it takes years and some luck to get here.

Exactly. This is my point. If you're satisfied with an average, boring job, then ok, don't go to law school. But no practicing attorney on this board was satisfied with an average, boring job. These people shouldn't be complaining about how dull or tough working in a law firm is, like the poor bloke in the link from "The fundamental problem with 0L's" thread.

Who told you that you would find excitement and meaning in a legal career?

I worked in an average, boring corporate job for a F100 for 5+ years before law school (even had a 4 BR house!). I don't know what to tell you if you're under the impression that law is exciting or materially different from average, boring corporate jobs as far as boredom goes. Law can be different from your average, boring corporate job, in some ways better (money and social prestige) , in other ways worse (hours, personal sacrifice, significant stress, way it changes the vast majority of people). However, you're likely going to end up disappointed if you're expecting to find significant meaning and excitement in a legal career while making a lot of money as a practicing lawyer.

That's my point. All jobs where you're getting paid well (lawyer, i-banker, doctor, engineer, etc), have the same sort of challenges in that you'll be stressed and have to make personal sacrifices. It's not unique to being a lawyer. People need to realize that you're going to have to make personal sacrifices and work shitty hours in order to get anywhere in the world- whether you're in the field of law, finance, medicine, etc. Practicing lawyers in these threads who tell 0Ls to go into engineering and such don't properly account for this. Hence, there should be much less fear-mongering like that in "The fundamental problem with 0L's" thread.

I'm not sure if you're missing the thrust of my post or I failed to properly communicate, so let's try again.

1. Law is not exceptional in terms of excitement--especially if your goal is to make lots of money as a lawyer. ITT, you seem to be emphasizing a legal career as a refuge from "average, boring jobs."

2. You're correct that most (all) fields require personal sacrifice and stress to achieve economic success. Nobody debates that. The other thread that inspired this thread also discussed other factors that 0Ls don't typically account for when deciding to attend law school. Not all stress and personal sacrifice is the same.

[worldtraveler]

This thread is apparently only about how men should be lawyers because it's the only way to attract a hot wife with your shit personality.

[burtsbees]

Please show me the beautiful women who will love your bald, flabby, $0 net worth, date breaking, no vacation having, nothing cool to talk about / relate to, unoriginal self who followed the herd. Maybe when you are 50 and partner you will find a golddigger who spends all your money and cheats on you.
You seem to have a grasp on how shitty the work and hours will be, but thinking your life will be better because of these sacrifices is flawed. It will not. The shittiness of your work will pollute everything decent in your life for many years.

I can see why you're bitter. I'd be too if I were bald and flabby.

The point is, if you're a bald, flabby, shitty lawyer with a golddigger wife, you'd probably be a bald, flabby, shitty doctor with a golddigger wife too, had you chosen that route. Or a bald, flabby, shitty...you get the point.

[aboutmydaylight]

Please show me the beautiful women who will love your bald, flabby, $0 net worth, date breaking, no vacation having, nothing cool to talk about / relate to, unoriginal self who followed the herd. Maybe when you are 50 and partner you will find a golddigger who spends all your money and cheats on you.
You seem to have a grasp on how shitty the work and hours will be, but thinking your life will be better because of these sacrifices is flawed. It will not. The shittiness of your work will pollute everything decent in your life for many years.

Sounds like the American dream.

[Theopliske8711]

Lovely 0L confirmation bias stroking here.

[Kikero]

Please show me the beautiful women who will love your bald, flabby, $0 net worth, date breaking, no vacation having, nothing cool to talk about / relate to, unoriginal self who followed the herd.

Mail order brides, bro. There are plenty of hot chicks that'll be happy to marry you for a chance to live in God's great country of 'Murica.

[anyriotgirl]

the fundamental problem with burtsbees is that he keeps on changing his position depending on who/what he is responding to