H vs Y Forum

[Mal Reynolds]

News:

Of these 2 schools, school A offered me 30-35K (somewhere in between)

Someone who's poorer than I am got only 29K from school B, so I expect to get even less than that (probably around 20K-25K). The gap between the 2 schools will be around 8-10K

Question: when I'm submitting the forms to school B, should I say that school A already gave me an offer?

On the one hand I don't want to appear to presume that that means anything. On the other, the May 1 deadline is approaching, so I want to lay my cards on the table now rather than have a back and forth plea for reconsideration with school B that can go beyond the May 1 deadline.

I heard that HYS would only reconsider their offer for another need-based school (i.e., HYS). Would a 8-10K difference be a big enough deal?

What the fuck? Just say which schools.

[potterdam]

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[Elston Gunn]

News:

Of these 2 schools, school A offered me 30-35K (somewhere in between)

Someone who's poorer than I am got only 29K from school B, so I expect to get even less than that (probably around 20K-25K). The gap between the 2 schools will be around 8-10K

Question: when I'm submitting the forms to school B, should I say that school A already gave me an offer?

On the one hand I don't want to appear to presume that that means anything. On the other, the May 1 deadline is approaching, so I want to lay my cards on the table now rather than have a back and forth plea for reconsideration with school B that can go beyond the May 1 deadline.

I heard that HYS would only reconsider their offer for another need-based school (i.e., HYS). Would a 8-10K difference be a big enough deal?

They have different COAs, so the scholly money isn't actually the relevant point. S, for instance, gave me $10K/yr more than Y, but the COA actually worked out the same. Anyway, I've heard rumors that they reconsider, but my experience is that it's actually a pretty rigid formula. That said, the Y financial aid people are actually pretty great and will help you try to work/game the formula to get more money.

[gottago]

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[drawstring]

So are the costs of attendance roughly the same?

[westbayguy]

Not a 1L- post grad who had HYS with scholly opitions and chose YLS.

If you want transactional, CLS or NYU are as good as YLS for getting transactional NYC positions. Maybe even better. HOWEVER (and it's a big one) no 1st semester grades, no class rank, easier LR write on, and less competition for coveted NYC transactional slots argue greatly for taking CLS or NYU with money.

You will run the risk of being bottom half at NYU or CLS and at risk for no NYC job, but if you can get into the top schools I presume you have what it takes to do well in those schools.

Is a Butler level money enough to swing it to CLS? That's tough. But don't get caught up in the YLS is best mystique- its not a good enough reason alone. The other stuff ($$) is what should swing you one way or the other. Don't underestimate the value of 1/2 the debt on graduation. If you are wortking at Big Law you are going to have to pay back everything you borrow. COAP. LIPP and other LRAPs won't help at all.

[gottago]

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[hcrimson2014]

I always think of Harvard as the USA whereas Yale is Canada (not completely analogous for sure). If you have what it takes, being on the top in Harvard will give you unparalleled opportunities and prestige while like in the USA where if you screw up, you can end up with no health care and without basic amenities, screwing up at Harvard will probably mean that you are screwed relative to most of your classmates. On the other hand, Yale like Canada guarantees an egalitarian outcome that is top notch in the world but being on top in Yale will definitely be less impressive compared to H. As such, for most people, Y is the better choice, so go to Yale since why should you risk a safe and great future for a small chance of attaining an even better one with huge potential risks.

[ph14]

I always think of Harvard as the USA whereas Yale is Canada (not completely analogous for sure). If you have what it takes, being on the top in Harvard will give you unparalleled opportunities and prestige while like in the USA where if you screw up, you can end up with no health care and without basic amenities, screwing up at Harvard will probably mean that you are screwed relative to most of your classmates. On the other hand, Yale like Canada guarantees an egalitarian outcome that is top notch in the world but being on top in Yale will definitely be less impressive compared to H. As such, for most people, Y is the better choice, so go to Yale since why should you risk a safe and great future for a small chance of attaining an even better one with huge potential risks.

It's Harvard. You will be alright no matter what.

[iamgeorgebush]

I always think of Harvard as the USA whereas Yale is Canada (not completely analogous for sure). If you have what it takes, being on the top in Harvard will give you unparalleled opportunities and prestige while like in the USA where if you screw up, you can end up with no health care and without basic amenities, screwing up at Harvard will probably mean that you are screwed relative to most of your classmates. On the other hand, Yale like Canada guarantees an egalitarian outcome that is top notch in the world but being on top in Yale will definitely be less impressive compared to H. As such, for most people, Y is the better choice, so go to Yale since why should you risk a safe and great future for a small chance of attaining an even better one with huge potential risks.

[jbagelboy]

Not a 1L- post grad who had HYS with scholly opitions and chose YLS.

If you want transactional, CLS or NYU are as good as YLS for getting transactional NYC positions. Maybe even better. HOWEVER (and it's a big one) no 1st semester grades, no class rank, easier LR write on, and less competition for coveted NYC transactional slots argue greatly for taking CLS or NYU with money.

You will run the risk of being bottom half at NYU or CLS and at risk for no NYC job, but if you can get into the top schools I presume you have what it takes to do well in those schools.

Is a Butler level money enough to swing it to CLS? That's tough. But don't get caught up in the YLS is best mystique- its not a good enough reason alone. The other stuff ($$) is what should swing you one way or the other. Don't underestimate the value of 1/2 the debt on graduation. If you are wortking at Big Law you are going to have to pay back everything you borrow. COAP. LIPP and other LRAPs won't help at all.

I agree CLS is top notch for NYC (maybe tied with Harvard) - and bottom half is far from striking out as recent stats show clearly - but the characterizations Y receives on TLS are that students are so in demand that a V20 is basically a guarantee regardless of H/P's. So from a risk standpoint , while there might be a lot more HCN alums in these top practice groups, yale is still far and away the safest choice (at near equal costs). Thoughts?

[gottago]

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[lawschool22]

Is there a particular reason why you want V5? What it is about those firms that appeals to you?

[ph14]

ETA I guess I forgot to include my total debt at graduation are.

I just have to take out the base loan, which is 45K this year. The rest is covered by their grants. So I figure the base loan is 47 X3 (45 47 49 ...shudders). = 140K. + 15K per summer associate position, unless I commit summer funds to pay off existing loans before taking out a new one for the next year.

So anywhere between 155K and 170K (not accounting for interest yet). Is H/Y @ 170K OK? I guess I don't really have other options like CCNP $ at the moment. Regardless, if my decision is between H and Y and my debt @ graduation out of both are the same, then would I just be decision on grounds other than financial?

ETA 2: The theme I got from YLS's ASW is that 15-20 of the 56 (multiples of 14) kids who get WLRK bids get CBs and 10 get offers. Of those 10, 5-6 are going to WLRK. This is either this current year or last year. If YLS does this well with WLRK then it must really be phenomenal with the rest of the V10.

Current students also said Davis Polk is the worst possible outcome out of YLS. I don't know so much about that, but if my goal is V10 (Davis Polk, Skadden, K&E, STB), is YLS the safe bet, whereas I might be "stuck" straddling the V25/V50 at HLS if I don't get cum laude level grades? Because I heard that to get V5 from HLS, you pretty much need 4-5Hs which is top 40%, might be top 33%.

I think that you are exaggerating the difference between H and Y, but I think that you are right that it is easier to get a top firm from Y. I know people at Y who got 1 V5 with just 1 H. I think it would be difficult to get a V5 for most people at HLS with equivalent grades (2 Hs) but not impossible. But I also think it would be an uphill battle to get a V5 or V10 with straight Ps, so don't think that your worst case scenario is a position at DPW. I know of people at HLS who had straight Ps and get a V10 firm. If you got into Y, odds are you have a strong resume which will help you at OCI.

Look at the number of students we put in top firms. Don't magnify what is a real but small difference into a huge gap between the school's placement.

Also, keep in mind that WLRK is not the most desirable firm for top HLS students. I know multiple people who turned down offers and callbacks.

[jbagelboy]

Well, to give just one data point, 12 Yale students are summering at Paul Weiss (V20). So unless DPW is less desirable than Paul Weiss (which it may be for some students, but this doesn't hold generally), clearly people are blowing smoke, as one would expect at an ASW.

Bottom line, Yale students do non-V10s every year, maybe by choice - probably by choice, since vault is even more stupid than US News survey - but several YLS students will be at Cleary, Jones Day, Kirkland, ect. These are all top firms but DPW is hardly the "worst outcome."

Harvard and Columbia students seem to spread out throughout (dominate) the entire V50, despite a large concentration at V10. I for one don't see this as a bad thing or a sign of weakness in placement power, since many of these firms do top work in their particular practice areas.

[Kronk]

For me it'd be between Yale and CCN with $$$.

Yale opens a lot of doors that the other schools, including Harvard, don't.

The only thing worse than 0Ls acting like they know things is knowing I was one of them five years ago.

[kaiser]

For me it'd be between Yale and CCN with $$$.

Yale opens a lot of doors that the other schools, including Harvard, don't.

The only thing worse than 0Ls acting like they know things is knowing I was one of them five years ago.

Exactly, which is why I don't blame them for putting their fingers in their ears so often. We didn't want to hear it 5 years ago. Though to be fair, 5 years ago, the only actual grads on these boards were JDU trolls telling us about how we will be working shitlaw out of a box. Now, the 0L's have far more grads willing to give them advice, without the trolling.

[gottago]

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[SnakySalmon]

You clearly want to go to Harvard, so you should do that before everyone on this forum literally murders you.

[Flanker1067]

I would just like to add one tiny, almost insignificant thing to the H v Y debate. As a non-t3 graduate working overseas, I can say that I would rather have gone to Harvard than Yale for working overseas. Outside of American lawyers, almost no one knows that Y is "better" than H. Most foreign lawyers assume that H is the best law school in the U.S. (and the world) based on the university's overall prestige, how often they hear about it in the news, and contact with successful H graduates (note that these all have to do with H's larger size). Even foreign lawyers who have a lot of experience in BigLaw, and therefore know the H v Y debate, will likely have no preference between the schools because (1) people around them won't know the difference, so it may actually be more prestigious for them to have a H person working for them, and (2) many foreign countries don't operate on the school-prestige-system, and instead focus on bar scores (which we don't have), work experience, or personality. By these metrics, Y and H are equal (well, I guess you could argue that Y people have better softs or whatever, but I won't do so).

[Cicero76]

You clearly want to go to Harvard, so you should do that before everyone on this forum literally murders you.

[hdunlop]

Make sure to tell everyone you turned down Yale once you get to Cambridge.

[potterdam]

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[ph14]

There's nothing wrong with picking Harvard over Yale. A decent number of people do. Both are great schools. You can't go wrong.

[ExpectLess]

...if I'm going to have to work hard at either place to get V10...

I'm not sure what it's like at H, but it's pretty easy to get V10 in NYC at Y. Non-NYC markets are harder to predict, and a few DC firms in particular care about grades. But even with mostly Ps, you're very likely to get V10 in NYC at Y (with a few exceptions, e.g., Wachtell cares a lot about relevant experience).