Yale v. Ruby Forum

[LochnerMonster]

Deleted.

[Elston Gunn]

My roommate took Yale over the Ruby. It was very, very close for him and he agonized over it, but he doesn't regret it (so far).

Ditto.

The time for regretting that kind of decision typically comes after school, once employment outcomes are more clear and debt repayment kicks in.

Very true.

Yale has a smooth operation for placing kids in clerkships, but there is little doubt as a Rubenstein Scholar you'll find similar institutional support. You'd have a faculty mentor who'll doubtless make calls to judges for you, and while the things that got you the Ruby certainly won't guarantee you'll wind up at the top of the class, I'd bet there's a very strong correlation between Ruby recipients and high grades. The fact that you'll have professors willing to take you under their wing from the get-go could also help with the academia route. Sure you might not want to be in legal academia, but any publication is going to help you with your academic goals.

I don't necessarily disagree with the substance of your post--and a clerkship should not be the be all and end all of a decision like this--but, while Yale does give a lot of institutional support for clerkships, that's hardly the main reason it's so easy to get them. Even if you're getting calls from profs but are just above median at Chicago, you're simply not getting your foot in the door for a huge portion of clerkships. Median at Y (WTF is that anyway???) absolutely is in with a shot, and you'll probably get a clerkship if you're persistent. Judges are simply much, much more forgiving with grades from Y than Chicago.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't necessarily disagree with the substance of your post--and a clerkship should not be the be all and end all of a decision like this--but, while Yale does give a lot of institutional support for clerkships, that's hardly the main reason it's so easy to get them. Even if you're getting calls from profs but are just above median at Chicago, you're simply not getting your foot in the door for a huge portion of clerkships. Median at Y (WTF is that anyway???) absolutely is in with a shot, and you'll probably get a clerkship if you're persistent. Judges are simply much, much more forgiving with grades from Y than Chicago.

I'm not challenging this - because it's way outside my experience - so genuine question: what's the evidence for this?

[Tiago Splitter]

I don't necessarily disagree with the substance of your post--and a clerkship should not be the be all and end all of a decision like this--but, while Yale does give a lot of institutional support for clerkships, that's hardly the main reason it's so easy to get them. Even if you're getting calls from profs but are just above median at Chicago, you're simply not getting your foot in the door for a huge portion of clerkships. Median at Y (WTF is that anyway???) absolutely is in with a shot, and you'll probably get a clerkship if you're persistent. Judges are simply much, much more forgiving with grades from Y than Chicago.

I'm not challenging this - because it's way outside my experience - so genuine question: what's the evidence for this?

The fact that Yale places three times as many grads into clerkships is a good place to start.

The only reason Yale might make sense here is that OP is looking at 150k debt rather than true sticker debt if he goes there. I'd still take Chicago because I think he'll end up in the same kind of big firm job from either school, but for someone with very specific appellate lit/DC biglaw/high level policy goals and good reasons to think they'd want those things 150k is defensible. If it were 300k I'd say no way.

[ga208]

I see on LSN that you are applying to HBS. If you get in you could do JD MBA joint degree. Hard to go back to school once working.

[rickgrimes69]

-Your general career goals
Two true paths:
1. Clerk, work in biglaw a few years for experience, enter academia (either for PhD then professor at a business school, or straight to professor at business school - teaching business undergrads biz law courses
2. Work for a firm on sports league clients or become an agent, after a few years go back for MBA, move into front office of a sports team
(I'll let my experiences in law school help guide this choice based on what I like)

This section has caused some confusion, so let me be clear: In academia I would want to be a professor at a BUSINESS school, not a law school. Does anyone have experience with this hiring? Some of the professors I speak to say I'll have to get a PhD which I can do from either school so Yale's not much of a boost. Others say I may not need the PhD so there is a boost.

Serious question: why are you going to law school? It doesn't sound like you really want to be a lawyer. Your ultimate goals are all non-law related.

[jkpolk]

I don't necessarily disagree with the substance of your post--and a clerkship should not be the be all and end all of a decision like this--but, while Yale does give a lot of institutional support for clerkships, that's hardly the main reason it's so easy to get them. Even if you're getting calls from profs but are just above median at Chicago, you're simply not getting your foot in the door for a huge portion of clerkships. Median at Y (WTF is that anyway???) absolutely is in with a shot, and you'll probably get a clerkship if you're persistent. Judges are simply much, much more forgiving with grades from Y than Chicago.

I'm not challenging this - because it's way outside my experience - so genuine question: what's the evidence for this?

The fact that Yale places three times as many grads into clerkships is a good place to start.

The only reason Yale might make sense here is that OP is looking at 150k debt rather than true sticker debt if he goes there. I'd still take Chicago because I think he'll end up in the same kind of big firm job from either school, but for someone with very specific appellate lit/DC biglaw/high level policy goals and good reasons to think they'd want those things 150k is defensible. If it were 300k I'd say no way.

I'm also willing to believe OP is actually a special snowflake. LS is a means to an end - he's going to get the end either way, he should take the end + 200-300k. Chicago.

[transferror]

I see on LSN that you are applying to HBS. If you get in you could do JD MBA joint degree. Hard to go back to school once working.

Yeah, if you get into HBS, I'm pretty sure you can do a joint degree between YLS and HBS. I at least know that people have done this in the past with a JD from YLS and MPP from Harvard.

[eph]

nope...the accelerated Integrated 4 year JD/MBA is Yale Law & Yale Business, unless they have changed since last year.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't necessarily disagree with the substance of your post--and a clerkship should not be the be all and end all of a decision like this--but, while Yale does give a lot of institutional support for clerkships, that's hardly the main reason it's so easy to get them. Even if you're getting calls from profs but are just above median at Chicago, you're simply not getting your foot in the door for a huge portion of clerkships. Median at Y (WTF is that anyway???) absolutely is in with a shot, and you'll probably get a clerkship if you're persistent. Judges are simply much, much more forgiving with grades from Y than Chicago.

I'm not challenging this - because it's way outside my experience - so genuine question: what's the evidence for this?

The fact that Yale places three times as many grads into clerkships is a good place to start.

Sorry, I just wondered if you had info beyond that. Because it's hard to know to what extent self-selection (or just grading systems - like you said, what is median at Yale?) plays a role in the statistics (I know this is the eternal debate that can't be solved with the data we have, though, so don't mean to start that up; really did just wonder if you had some other insider knowledge).

[transferror]

nope...the accelerated Integrated 4 year JD/MBA is Yale Law & Yale Business, unless they have changed since last year.

Haha, ok, then do an un-integrated and un-accelerated JD/MBA, which will only take an extra year.

[BankruptMe]

0L.

Take Chicago. Lack of debt equals freedom.

And not having any debt will be good when your breaking into sports agencies. Also, there may be agencies in Chicago that you can get some experience with

[Elston Gunn]

I don't necessarily disagree with the substance of your post--and a clerkship should not be the be all and end all of a decision like this--but, while Yale does give a lot of institutional support for clerkships, that's hardly the main reason it's so easy to get them. Even if you're getting calls from profs but are just above median at Chicago, you're simply not getting your foot in the door for a huge portion of clerkships. Median at Y (WTF is that anyway???) absolutely is in with a shot, and you'll probably get a clerkship if you're persistent. Judges are simply much, much more forgiving with grades from Y than Chicago.

I'm not challenging this - because it's way outside my experience - so genuine question: what's the evidence for this?

The fact that Yale places three times as many grads into clerkships is a good place to start.

Sorry, I just wondered if you had info beyond that. Because it's hard to know to what extent self-selection (or just grading systems - like you said, what is median at Yale?) plays a role in the statistics (I know this is the eternal debate that can't be solved with the data we have, though, so don't mean to start that up; really did just wonder if you had some other insider knowledge).

Can't substantiate that someone with median grades from Chicago can't get their foot in the door for a large proportion of federal clerkships, particularly COAs. I'm admittedly assuming that from their placement stats and impressions what the anonymous clerks in the Judicial Clerkship forum have said.

I can definitely say--anecdotally, of course--that the large majority of people who can get a professor or two to go to bat for them at Yale can at least get clerkship interviews. I know people with zero Hs in black letter classes and no YLJ with 2nd/9th Circuit interviews (and other COAs). And personally, my grades might look pretty good, but I've only gotten one H in an exam class, and don't have any fancy faculty connections, and I got a district clerkship with the judge I really, really wanted to in my desired market (though admittedly not SDNY/EDNY/DDC, etc) after only sending a couple applications. Anecdotes, of course, but that really is a broadly applicable experience here, especially for people with Journal (which is not exactly easy to get on, but nothing like at HLS, etc).

[northwood]

Look at it this way:
If you have to go back to school and get a Ph.D- do you want to have student loans that will be accumulating interest to the principal amount borrowed if you go JD-> Ph.D? Or if you start working, do you want to be forced to put your Ph.D on hold until you pay off those loans?

If you take UChi and go for minimal cost ( assuming you borrow for living expenses) you will have that much less debt to have to repay ( and that is accumulating interest as you go). Even if you don't have to take out loans, you can either let your money work for you while you go ( through investments), or you can let someone else's money work for them. And regardless of how your plans pan out, you have one less thing to worry about ( which is a really good thing).

[Pulsar]

Diehard save-the-world PI types who are ok going on LIPP and living in moderate poverty for the remainder of their earthly existence might reasonably turn down the Ruby for Yale. As soon as "biglaw for a few years" enters the equation, however, then the Ruby becomes a way better choice. OP will get a biglaw job out of Chicago and can do business-y things at Booth. These choices are always very subjective, but I suspect the Ruby is, as it is for most 0Ls, the right call here.

[Instinctive]

I see on LSN that you are applying to HBS. If you get in you could do JD MBA joint degree. Hard to go back to school once working.

Yeah, if you get into HBS, I'm pretty sure you can do a joint degree between YLS and HBS. I at least know that people have done this in the past with a JD from YLS and MPP from Harvard.

I didn't get in. I did get into Yale SOM today though.


And to the post below this quoted one - you can absolutely do a 4 year JD/MBA with YLS/HBS. The 3 year accelerated is only Yale and Yale.

[eph]

Sorry if I gave incorrect information. You are of course correct that the 3 year is Yale - Yale and they still offer a 4 year Yale - Yale. Would you be so kind as to please point me to where you see a Yale JD and a Harvard MBA as doable in 4 years on either Yale or Harvard's websites. If you are referring to the Yale statement that they will approve joint degrees with other schools on a case by case basis I would ask why you would be so certain that a top business school would want such an arrangement Most schools limit the joint degrees even for their own students, often for simple economic reasons. Why issue an MBA at a discount when you are oversubscribed by a multiple of 10? Thank you for your help.

[Gary]

Sorry if I gave incorrect information. You are of course correct that the 3 year is Yale - Yale and they still offer a 4 year Yale - Yale. Would you be so kind as to please point me to where you see a Yale JD and a Harvard MBA as doable in 4 years on either Yale or Harvard's websites. If you are referring to the Yale statement that they will approve joint degrees with other schools on a case by case basis I would ask why you would be so certain that a top business school would want such an arrangement Most schools limit the joint degrees even for their own students, often for simple economic reasons. Why issue an MBA at a discount when you are oversubscribed by a multiple of 10? Thank you for your help.

Well I can't explain the rational behind HBS's policy but I can vouch for the fact that I know someone who has done the YLS/HBS dual degree in 4 years.

[20141023]

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[jbagelboy]

I am curious what OP ultimately decides/decided

[Pneumonia]

I am curious what OP ultimately decides/decided

+1
This has been a great thread

[nebula666]

Yeah after reading through all of this I am starting to reconsider my knee-jerk Yale reaction.

[Instinctive]

OP has not yet decided

I absolutely appreciate all the thought though. I think at this point I want the Chicago ASW to go well and for Doctoroff to come through so I can justify attending there (turning down YLS also means turning down Yale SOM, where I have been accepted). I can give up the MBA degree, but I don't want to give up the graduate level business education it offers, which Doctoroff would replace.

Here's hoping ASW goes well next week.

[michlaw]

Hope ASW goes well. Are you definitely doing JD/MBA? If so Chicago with a Ruby seems like the way to go. The standing of Booth makes Chicago a much stronger combination. Good luck.

[20141023]

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