Mich ($105K) vs Northwestern ($150K) Forum

[rickgrimes69]

It's not just grades, and your implication that everyone with top 25% grades *could* have gotten a clerkship if they wanted is (1) wrong and (2) nonsensical (do enough Fed Clerkships even exist to allow everyone in the top 25% to get one?)

No one is arguing that if the entire top 25% at NU went for the clerkship that they'd all get one.

DF said that there's "at least a 25% chance to get a clerkship at NU." Not that "top 25% grades give you a chance at a clerkship." Those are two different statements.

[Tiago Splitter]

It's not just grades, and your implication that everyone with top 25% grades *could* have gotten a clerkship if they wanted is (1) wrong and (2) nonsensical (do enough Fed Clerkships even exist to allow everyone in the top 25% to get one?)

No one is arguing that if the entire top 25% at NU went for the clerkship that they'd all get one.

DF said that there's "at least a 25% chance to get a clerkship at NU." Not that "top 25% grades give you a chance at a clerkship." Those are two different statements.

I think he's saying that if you walk into NU this fall as random student X you have about a 25% chance of getting a clerkship if that's something you gun for. Seems like a reasonable estimate. Obviously if everyone in the class was gunning for a clerkship your odds would go down.

[unc0mm0n1]

It's not just grades, and your implication that everyone with top 25% grades *could* have gotten a clerkship if they wanted is (1) wrong and (2) nonsensical (do enough Fed Clerkships even exist to allow everyone in the top 25% to get one?)

No one is arguing that if the entire top 25% at NU went for the clerkship that they'd all get one.

DF said that there's "at least a 25% chance to get a clerkship at NU." Not that "top 25% grades give you a chance at a clerkship." Those are two different statements.

I think he's saying that if you walk into NU this fall as random student X you have about a 25% chance of getting a clerkship if that's something you gun for. Seems like a reasonable estimate. Obviously if everyone in the class was gunning for a clerkship your odds would go down.

That's exactly how I read it and I also think it's reasonable.

[rayiner]

It's not just grades, and your implication that everyone with top 25% grades *could* have gotten a clerkship if they wanted is (1) wrong and (2) nonsensical (do enough Fed Clerkships even exist to allow everyone in the top 25% to get one?)

No one is arguing that if the entire top 25% at NU went for the clerkship that they'd all get one.

DF said that there's "at least a 25% chance to get a clerkship at NU." Not that "top 25% grades give you a chance at a clerkship." Those are two different statements.

There's more to getting a clerkship than grades, but grades are really the only thing where it's fair to talk about "chance." The other aspects of putting together a good clerkship application: getting good recommendations, having professors call on your behalf, showing a desire to live in a different places, interviewing well, asking the right questions, etc, are not the subject of intense competition and mostly within your control. Obviously if you are gunning for a feeder there is competition to impress the right professors, be on the e-board of law review, etc, but that's not necessary to just get some federal clerkship.

Remember, the question is posed from the perspective of a 0L looking to clerk. If that's what he really wants to do, he can put himself in the right position. What's left to chance is whether he'll get the grades. To the extent that top-25% (if not lower--I know people at median who got interviews) puts you in the running for federal clerkships, it's entirely fair to say that there's a 25% chance if you work for it.

[rickgrimes69]

It's not just grades, and your implication that everyone with top 25% grades *could* have gotten a clerkship if they wanted is (1) wrong and (2) nonsensical (do enough Fed Clerkships even exist to allow everyone in the top 25% to get one?)

No one is arguing that if the entire top 25% at NU went for the clerkship that they'd all get one.

DF said that there's "at least a 25% chance to get a clerkship at NU." Not that "top 25% grades give you a chance at a clerkship." Those are two different statements.

I think he's saying that if you walk into NU this fall as random student X you have about a 25% chance of getting a clerkship if that's something you gun for. Seems like a reasonable estimate. Obviously if everyone in the class was gunning for a clerkship your odds would go down.

Ok yeah I agree with that but that's not what DF said. Maybe I read into it too literally.

[09042014]

Grades % - Chances

10 95
20 70
30 45
40 25
50 5
60 4
70 3
80 2
90 1
100 0

would yield 25% overall. Of course I'm pulling this out of my ass, and I'm assuming you try hard and apply broadly. But it's a good ballpark.

My point exactly. Grades are necessary, but definitely not sufficient for getting a clerkship. I'm not even going through the clerking process and I know that much. I know people in the top 5% on LR who can't find a clerkship anywhere, and I know a guy hovering around the top third who has one lined up. It's primarily, but not exclusively grades, and your implication that everyone in the top 25% *could* have gotten a clerkship if they wanted is (1) wrong and (2) nonsensical (do enough Fed Clerkships even exist to allow everyone in the top 25% to get one?)

I didn't say the top 25%, and from context (especially the chart) it's really clear I don't mean top 25%. In fact I'm expressly saying the opposite. I mean you have a 25% chance. That includes the chances of getting one at median, and missing it at top 5%.

2) nonsensical (do enough Fed Clerkships even exist to allow everyone in the top 25% to get one?)

Are you stupid or something? Assuming 25% of the class could get a clerkship, that doesn't mean there has to be enough space for everyone. We are talking about 1 person's shot.

[bjsesq]

Am I having a reading comp fail, or did DF just go schizophrenic?

[sobrickay]

Obviously, if everyone tried to clerk, the competition would get more intense and the bar would go up. But not everyone wants to clerk. Less than a third of the people who graduated magna (top 5%) my year at NU clerked within the first two years after graduation. Any one of those folks could've gotten a clerkship if they had wanted one.

I wish I had checked this earlier today to guide the discussion! I just want to note that while I like Chicago, I'm not set on it, and would also heavily consider moving back to Minneapolis where I have some good connections (actually, with some Michigan alum). I have it on good authority that the Michigan network is pretty good in MPLS, and quite a bit better than NWs. The more I think about it, the more I realize that I have some solid connections in the twin cities that might mitigate some of the risk of striking out (whatever that is worth).

Again, I totally understand TLS's strong preference for the "go where its cheaper no matter what" logic. But I also want to enjoy the place and the people I go to law school with. I think there are things that make Michigan worth paying a little more for (better LRAP, better network in MPLS, better PI support if I want to go that route). One attorney I know told me that the debt level I'd be taking on from Michigan is pretty manageable on a BigLaw salary. The $35K difference is definitely not negligible but its not absurd. Both my scholarships are pretty good. I admit I don't have a lot of good information about NW, but I guess I worry that NW might not be as good a fit for me. Rayiner, maybe you could shed some light on this since you went to NU? That would be really helpful for me.

Thanks for the discussion about clerkships - that is helpful to know. At the moment, I'm pretty interested in clerking, mostly because I think it sounds really interesting and it might open some different doors for my career later on.

[09042014]

Am I having a reading comp fail, or did DF just go schizophrenic?

Odds are I'm being very unclear.

Saying "you have a 25% chance" isn't the same as saying "the top could 25% get them." Because as we all know, it's not just about grades. Some in the top 25% can't and some below the top 25% can.

[bjsesq]

I think it was the >2 (nonsensical) part. I thought you had typed it on a TI-85 or some shit.

[09042014]

I think it was the >2 (nonsensical) part. I thought you had typed it on a TI-85 or some shit.

That's just how us IP Bros communicate bro Fx(x,4x^2)

[rickgrimes69]

I didn't say the top 25%, and from context (especially the chart) it's really clear I don't mean top 25%. In fact I'm expressly saying the opposite. I mean you have a 25% chance. That includes the chances of getting one at median, and missing it at top 5%.

2) nonsensical (do enough Fed Clerkships even exist to allow everyone in the top 25% to get one?)

Are you stupid or something? Assuming 25% of the class could get a clerkship, that doesn't mean there has to be enough space for everyone. We are talking about 1 person's shot.

Gonna go with "or something." Sorry I read your post too literally?

[09042014]

I didn't say the top 25%, and from context (especially the chart) it's really clear I don't mean top 25%. In fact I'm expressly saying the opposite. I mean you have a 25% chance. That includes the chances of getting one at median, and missing it at top 5%.

2) nonsensical (do enough Fed Clerkships even exist to allow everyone in the top 25% to get one?)

Are you stupid or something? Assuming 25% of the class could get a clerkship, that doesn't mean there has to be enough space for everyone. We are talking about 1 person's shot.

Gonna go with "or something." Sorry I read your post too literally?

Well I maintain that even literally I didn't say top 25%, but I frequently say the opposite of what I mean so who knows!

[rayiner]

Obviously, if everyone tried to clerk, the competition would get more intense and the bar would go up. But not everyone wants to clerk. Less than a third of the people who graduated magna (top 5%) my year at NU clerked within the first two years after graduation. Any one of those folks could've gotten a clerkship if they had wanted one.

I wish I had checked this earlier today to guide the discussion! I just want to note that while I like Chicago, I'm not set on it, and would also heavily consider moving back to Minneapolis where I have some good connections (actually, with some Michigan alum). I have it on good authority that the Michigan network is pretty good in MPLS, and quite a bit better than NWs. The more I think about it, the more I realize that I have some solid connections in the twin cities that might mitigate some of the risk of striking out (whatever that is worth).

Again, I totally understand TLS's strong preference for the "go where its cheaper no matter what" logic. But I also want to enjoy the place and the people I go to law school with. I think there are things that make Michigan worth paying a little more for (better LRAP, better network in MPLS, better PI support if I want to go that route). One attorney I know told me that the debt level I'd be taking on from Michigan is pretty manageable on a BigLaw salary. The $35K difference is definitely not negligible but its not absurd. Both my scholarships are pretty good. I admit I don't have a lot of good information about NW, but I guess I worry that NW might not be as good a fit for me. Rayiner, maybe you could shed some light on this since you went to NU? That would be really helpful for me.

Thanks for the discussion about clerkships - that is helpful to know. At the moment, I'm pretty interested in clerking, mostly because I think it sounds really interesting and it might open some different doors for my career later on.

I don't think it's unreasonable to spend an extra $35k to go somewhere you like better. It would've been $70k cheaper for me to live at home and go to Georgetown, but I don't regret not doing that for a second. The social scene at Michigan is quite different than the social scene at NU, there is a distinctly more academic culture at Michigan than at NU, etc. Living in a college town is very different than living in downtown Chicago. All these are perfectly good reasons to turn down the extra money.

If these factors make you want to go to Michigan, then by all means you should go. But if you're asking us whether Michigan's "network" or "staying power" are worth $35k more than NU, then at least my answer is no. That's $400/month on a 10-year repayment plan, basically a car payment or a very acceptable whiskey budget.

[sobrickay]

I don't think it's unreasonable to spend an extra $35k to go somewhere you like better. It would've been $70k cheaper for me to live at home and go to Georgetown, but I don't regret not doing that for a second. The social scene at Michigan is quite different than the social scene at NU, there is a distinctly more academic culture at Michigan than at NU, etc. Living in a college town is very different than living in downtown Chicago. All these are perfectly good reasons to turn down the extra money.

If these factors make you want to go to Michigan, then by all means you should go. But if you're asking us whether Michigan's "network" or "staying power" are worth $35k more than NU, then at least my answer is no. That's $400/month on a 10-year repayment plan, basically a car payment or a very acceptable whiskey budget.

This is more or less the sort of advice I was looking for - thanks! Frankly, it is bit unhelpful when people say "X hands down" without explaining why it is such an obvious choice given my OP.

Anyways, if Michigan is more academic in your opinion, how would you characterize NU? Is it just that people have a more professional attitude towards their studies? On the one hand, I love living in the city, but I also think I would be more at home socially in a more academic atmosphere. If I could, I would be visiting these places for myself, but unfortunately its not an option for me so I appreciate whatever advice you can offer.

[rayiner]

I don't think it's unreasonable to spend an extra $35k to go somewhere you like better. It would've been $70k cheaper for me to live at home and go to Georgetown, but I don't regret not doing that for a second. The social scene at Michigan is quite different than the social scene at NU, there is a distinctly more academic culture at Michigan than at NU, etc. Living in a college town is very different than living in downtown Chicago. All these are perfectly good reasons to turn down the extra money.

If these factors make you want to go to Michigan, then by all means you should go. But if you're asking us whether Michigan's "network" or "staying power" are worth $35k more than NU, then at least my answer is no. That's $400/month on a 10-year repayment plan, basically a car payment or a very acceptable whiskey budget.

This is more or less the sort of advice I was looking for - thanks! Frankly, it is bit unhelpful when people say "X hands down" without explaining why it is such an obvious choice given my OP.

Anyways, if Michigan is more academic in your opinion, how would you characterize NU? Is it just that people have a more professional attitude towards their studies? On the one hand, I love living in the city, but I also think I would be more at home socially in a more academic atmosphere. If I could, I would be visiting these places for myself, but unfortunately its not an option for me so I appreciate whatever advice you can offer.

The median attitude is probably professional, but there's a distinctly anti-academic streak among a minority. If you said you were gunning for becoming a law professor, you'd get more laughs/jeers at NU, I think.

[Micdiddy]

My experience so far at NU seems similar to what Rayiner is saying. People here are practical, professional and have a "we're in this together" attitude. It would be strange if someone overtly claimed they need to clerk, make law review, become a professor, etc. (even though it's totally fine to work towards those goals, and many do).
Clearly there is something pulling you to Michigan, and no anonymous stranger online can share that with you. Most everyone else in this position would take NU because we do not feel the sentimental appeal to Mich that you do. If you want to pay 35k to satisfy that, then by all means that is perfectly within your right.

[sobrickay]

Clearly there is something pulling you to Michigan, and no anonymous stranger online can share that with you. Most everyone else in this position would take NU because we do not feel the sentimental appeal to Mich that you do

Yeah, I hope I haven't come off as obstinate to people's advice. I'm more torn about this than my posts let on. You've all given me a lot to think about, and being challenged on how I'm weighing my options is the reason I asked for feedback in the first place, so thanks! I think now its time to sit and reflect a little..

[whereskyle]

Based on my experience at NU's ASW (where I've chosen to go, didn't apply this cycle to Michigan/UVA/Duke, cuz I don't want to go to college again), I actually felt pretty good about being one of the minority who are interested in PI/Academia. Even the fact that so many people are interested in transactional work makes me feel good about the possibility of securing litigation work, if I feel compelled to sell out. I think that there is something to be said for diversification among the student body. ANECDOTE: I heard from a 3L who will be doing a 2 year EJW fellowship that NU offers $50,000/year PI fellowships to about 10 grads (a number likely to increase according to the Dean), and that as far as she knows, none of them have been snatched up. With the clinic at NU being so strong and the competition for PI work being so weak, I feel quite comfortable in the thought that I'm not going to be gunning against other PI folk. Also, I think according to taxprawf or prawfsblog or something like that, that NU grads placed 4 incoming academics this year, which is quite impressive. Also, for clerkships and teaching, I heard good things about getting published alongside professors, if you'd like to do a 2L or 3L research project. Again, I didn't go to M's ASW, but I felt really good coming away from NU's ASW.