Why is Michigan dropping? Forum

patogordo · Post by **patogordo** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:51 am

you know that Michigan has a forced curve too, right? and if fewer people are getting good jobs you'd expect even more competition, although the idea of a "cutthroat" law school atmosphere is kind of ridiculous on it's own. it's grad school, not Survivor.

04102014 · Post by **04102014** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:53 am

Fwiw, I've heard Michigan is just as competitive as every other school. Students just mask it behind Midwestern "aw shux." Which I think is even worse.

Source: Michigan Law Students

Lincoln · Post by **Lincoln** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:25 am

If you love Michigan, have you tried to leverage your NU scholly with UM? The sticker COA at Michigan is $8,000+ less than Chicago's. If you can make that $23k per year, combined with your intuition you'd do better at Michigan, that may tip the scales even for the TLS stats fanatics.

Edited for complete inability to insert hyperlinks.

Pulsar · Post by **Pulsar** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:36 am

banjo wrote:
If you were inclined to choose a law school based on the likelihood of finding love, you should pick Michigan.
That's an actual quote from Dean Z's blog: https://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2 ... spx?ID=112. I mean, come on. Don't believe anything these law schools say.

I dunno. Went to Chicago; did not find love

(did find job though

).

Otunga · Post by **Otunga** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:46 am

banjo wrote:
If you were inclined to choose a law school based on the likelihood of finding love, you should pick Michigan.
That's an actual quote from Dean Z's blog: https://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2 ... spx?ID=112. I mean, come on. Don't believe anything these law schools say.

I think I read something about WUSTL being an excellent law school for finding love.

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:39 pm

patogordo wrote:you know that Michigan has a forced curve too, right? and if fewer people are getting good jobs you'd expect even more competition, although the idea of a "cutthroat" law school atmosphere is kind of ridiculous on it's own. it's grad school, not Survivor.

You've never been victimized by someone ripping a page from a book in the library?

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:57 pm

Post removed.

DaftAndDirect · Post by **DaftAndDirect** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:20 pm

If your pre-LS resume is solid and relevant, (e.g. 2+ years of work experience in business, engineering, paralegal, or any other challenging and detail oriented field) then all other things being equal, you will outperform the average Michigan student during OCI. In this situation, the sagging employment statistics are less likely to apply to you.

If you are straight from undergrad, or your work experience is less relevant to law firm work (think teaching English in China for two years), then the employment statistics, as reported on websites like these, should weigh heavily on your decision, and you should choose the highest ranked school possible.

And if your parents are paying for your education then, well, just do what feels right.

lawschool22 · Post by **lawschool22** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:44 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:Fwiw, I've heard Michigan is just as competitive as every other school. Students just mask it behind Midwestern "aw shux." Which I think is even worse.

Source: Michigan Law Students

I see your veiled Midwest bashing, ohpo

3L2014 · Post by **3L2014** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:04 pm

The best thread i've read since finally signing up for a TLS account. 0L comes to TLS looking for validation. 0L doesn't get said validation. 0L becomes extremely polarized. 0L will end up paying the same amount to go to an objectively inferior school.

Kids these days...

OP,
1) Yes, fit is important. Two responses. A) It is not that important when comparing schools across tiers (assuming equal cost and no specific regional need). But more importantly, (B) what you are using to analyze fit is absurd--comparing Michigan's extravaganza best-foot-forward weekend vs. Chicago's reputation for being an academically rigorous school on TLS. Yep, that makes sense.
2) Comparing schools relative to schools you are not choosing from is asinine. Do not need to expound on this.
3) Perhaps Michigan is falling in the rankings because it has a propensity to attract students with the reasoning skills of OP.

Pulsar · Post by **Pulsar** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:45 pm

I think you guys are savaging OP a bit much. They should just come to Chicago's weekend and see how it feels. OP should *probably* come to Chicago but if they *really* hate it and *really* love Michigan then, well, one could make crazier choices. Three years is a long time and the strivers on this website underrate happiness imho.

--Striver who is at Chicago.

Lincoln · Post by **Lincoln** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:30 pm

Pulsar wrote:I think you guys are savaging OP a bit much. They should just come to Chicago's weekend and see how it feels. OP should *probably* come to Chicago but if they *really* hate it and *really* love Michigan then, well, one could make crazier choices. Three years is a long time and the strivers on this website underrate happiness imho.

--Striver who is at Chicago.

Agreed

--Striver with biglawl jerb.

manu6926 · Post by **manu6926** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:43 pm

patogordo · Post by **patogordo** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:47 pm

manu6926 wrote:I didn't apply to Michigan. But it's interesting and puzzling to see how much Michigan law declined. In the 1980s for instance, it used to be a top 5 school. In the 1990s, it ranked between 6~8. This has something to do with its graduates not performing well as they used to. Why? I think OP is interested in this, and not the decline in Michigan's ranking itself.

something changed, and that something is EVERYTHING

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:50 pm

manu6926 wrote:I didn't apply to Michigan. But it's interesting and puzzling to see how much Michigan law declined. In the 1980s for instance, it used to be a top 5 school. In the 1990s, it ranked between 6~8. This has something to do with its graduates not performing well as they used to. Why? I think OP is interested in this, and not the decline in Michigan's ranking itself.

They ranked third in the initial USnews ranking in 1987. There were no rankings in 1988-89, and ever since Michigan has ranked between 6 and 10. There's nothing to see here.

manu6926 · Post by **manu6926** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:59 pm

JustE · Post by **JustE** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:03 pm

Michigan's drop in the rankings has as much to do with Detroit's decline as anything else. It was once a powerhouse and losing that market hurts. Also, I'm referring to the drop from 3 to 10 and not the musical chairs that happens every year between Berkley, UVA, Penn, and Michigan.

As a current student, I can honestly tell you that I've experienced very little competition here. I've enjoyed my experience and that has helped my GPA. On the other hand, the winter probably had the opposite affect. It gets cold, but Chicago is actually colder.

Michigan also attracts an insane number of bleeding hearts that lean towards public interest work. Without a doubt, this, combined with the lack of a dedicated market, hurts our BigLaw employment numbers, but it's not that bad.

Reputation is arguably as important if not more important than rankings, and we were #4 there last I checked.

I will say that we have a unique community. Would I pick a community over Harvard? Probably not, but a full ride would make me think twice. I certainly picked Michigan over NYU, though. I think I would pick it over Chicago as well. Of course, this depends on money.

Take your Northwestern scholarship to Dean Z and they'll match it. That plus the difference in cost of living makes Michigan the easy choice here if you enjoyed your visit as much as you say. I had the same experience when I visited and Michigan has lived up to every expectation.

Good luck and Go Blue.

rpupkin · Post by **rpupkin** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:07 pm

JustE wrote:
~~Reputation~~ Employment is arguably as important if not more important than ~~rankings~~ reputation, and we were #4 #13 there last I checked.

JustE · Post by **JustE** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:12 pm

rpupkin wrote:
JustE wrote:
~~Reputation~~ Employment is arguably as important if not more important than ~~rankings~~ reputation, and we were #4 #13 there last I checked.

Also addressed that, bud. Thanks for dropping by, though.

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:15 pm

manu6926 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
manu6926 wrote:I didn't apply to Michigan. But it's interesting and puzzling to see how much Michigan law declined. In the 1980s for instance, it used to be a top 5 school. In the 1990s, it ranked between 6~8. This has something to do with its graduates not performing well as they used to. Why? I think OP is interested in this, and not the decline in Michigan's ranking itself.
They ranked third in the initial USnews ranking in 1987. There were no rankings in 1988-89, and ever since Michigan has ranked between 6 and 10. There's nothing to see here.
There was a reputation survey in 1974. http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/vie ... cholarship
And there probably were some sorts of rankings all the time.

OP asked why Michigan "keeps dropping in the rankings." They ranked 7th in 1990 and ranked 7th in 2011.

CTT · Post by **CTT** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:29 pm

You guys are hating on Michigan for a relatively small difference in employment numbers. Especially with the declining class size and bump to the curve, classes 2016 and on might see some improvement in the employment stats. On top of that, the school was under construction for a while and is no longer (might have a small effect of yield). I think things are looking up for Michigan. Sadly, it'll take until 2017 for such factors to fully work their way into the stats and rankings.

I've loved Michigan. People here are indeed really collegial. And I think we've got a comparatively high number of people who want to do something other than big law, which helps make for a better atmosphere.

Michigan has been between 6 and 10 since 1990. It generally does slightly better in reputation surveys than in selectivity. This is an awesome place to go to law school, and it'll be an awesome place to go regardless of whether it's ranked 5th or 11th in USNWR this time next year.

On the Detroit point, that's probably true. A pretty small portion of student go to Detroit (or for that matter any midwest market aside from Chicago), but if you want a firm job and your grades suck, the secondary Midwest markets might serve as a nice fallback if you've got some connections to one.

manu6926 · Post by **manu6926** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:40 pm

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:46 pm

Post removed.

20141023 · Post by **20141023** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:03 am

rayiner · Post by **rayiner** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:45 am

If we're talking trends going back decades, the big thing that happened is that Penn and Berkeley got better. Both used to be 10-12 in the early years of the rankings, and bought top faculty to get solidly in the 6-7 spots. This dropped Michigan from 7-8 to 8-10.