FINAL: NYU ($) v. Duke ($$) v. HLS - LS22 needs your help Forum

[jbagelboy]

To follow up on my previous post, here's this summer's class at one of the top DC shops

Williams and Connolly

Chicago - 1
Columbia - 2
Cornell - 1
Duke - 3
GULC - 5
GW - 1
Harvard - 5
Michigan - 2
Northwestern - 2
NYU - 1
Penn - 2
Stanford - 3
Texas - 2
Vanderbilt - 1
Virginia - 2
Yale - 8

Obviously it's a pretty good spread across the T14 with the edge to HY, and this is a ridiculously small sample size, but NYU has a much larger class size than Duke and sent only one to Duke's three.

Again, this means very little without context (how many targeting the market, other firm summer classes, ect), but it reaffirms my suspicions that NYU isn't a harder hitter than Duke in DC.

[Otunga]

I think the Duke COA was less than NW's COA when you initially posted, OP, but correct me if I'm wrong. Looking at the numbers here, I like NW a little more. But maybe I'm looking at the choice as if your goal is general biglaw, as is often the case on TLS. Since you have a specific DC goal, it could be worth paying a bit more for Duke or a ton more for NYU. If Duke has a demonstrable DC advantage, I'd say at least that paying a small amount more for there is justifiable.

[lawschool22]

I think the Duke COA was less than NW's COA when you initially posted, OP, but correct me if I'm wrong. Looking at the numbers here, I like NW a little more. But maybe I'm looking at the choice as if your goal is general biglaw, as is often the case on TLS. Since you have a specific DC goal, it could be worth paying a bit more for Duke or a ton more for NYU. If Duke has a demonstrable DC advantage, I'd say at least that paying a small amount more for there is justifiable.

Yep Duke was initially lower, but I had an erroneous tuition amount lol. The one good thing is I have a feeling Duke is more likely to budge on it's offer than NU is, so they may end up becoming more comparable.

[lawschool22]

I just changed the poll to allow re-voting if you decide you changed your mind after the updated numbers.

[rayiner]

As someone who has done a DC job search twice (OCI and post clerkship), I'll reiterate what Desert Fox said, which is that only HYS gives you a definitive edge in DC. You'll have to do very well at any of these schools to have a good shot at DC. NYU does great in New York, but nobody in DC gives a shit about that. It can be harder to get a V50 in DC than a V10 in New York. As for Duke versus NU, its a lot about self selection. At NU OCI, DC firms often go for very high (I.e. less desirable) bids. You can get top DC firms with bids in the 20s while Sidley Chicago requires a bid of 3-5. This can be tactically advantageous because you can compose a solid DC+NYC bid list at NU to reduce strike out chances.

Just go to the school that gives you the lowest COA.

[09042014]

As someone who has done a DC job search twice (OCI and post clerkship), I'll reiterate what Desert Fox said, which is that only HYS gives you a definitive edge in DC. You'll have to do very well at any of these schools to have a good shot at DC. NYU does great in New York, but nobody in DC gives a shit about that. It can be harder to get a V50 in DC than a V10 in New York. As for Duke versus NU, its a lot about self selection. At NU OCI, DC firms often go for very high (I.e. less desirable) bids. You can get top DC firms with bids in the 20s while Sidley Chicago requires a bid of 3-5. This can be tactically advantageous because you can compose a solid DC+NYC bid list at NU to reduce strike out chances.

Just go to the school that gives you the lowest COA.

Yea helped a TLSer do this, this past OCI. He got over 22 interviews (when average is 15) because I got him extra DC interviews by having him bid high.

[lawschool22]

As someone who has done a DC job search twice (OCI and post clerkship), I'll reiterate what Desert Fox said, which is that only HYS gives you a definitive edge in DC. You'll have to do very well at any of these schools to have a good shot at DC. NYU does great in New York, but nobody in DC gives a shit about that. It can be harder to get a V50 in DC than a V10 in New York. As for Duke versus NU, its a lot about self selection. At NU OCI, DC firms often go for very high (I.e. less desirable) bids. You can get top DC firms with bids in the 20s while Sidley Chicago requires a bid of 3-5. This can be tactically advantageous because you can compose a solid DC+NYC bid list at NU to reduce strike out chances.

Just go to the school that gives you the lowest COA.

Yea helped a TLSer do this, this past OCI. He got over 22 interviews (when average is 15) because I got him extra DC interviews by having him bid high.

Interesting. So in a way the relatively small number of NU folks targeting DC could actually be an advantage and allow me to bid for DC without risking striking out in other markets. Do I have that right?

[Tiago Splitter]

I wouldn't assume NU has nearly as many DC employers coming to their OCI when they're placing 4% in DC to Duke's 15%. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm right just being able to manipulate your bidlist isn't all that helpful.

[lecsa]

.

[Tiago Splitter]

I wouldn't assume NU has nearly as many DC employers coming to their OCI when they're placing 4% in DC to Duke's 15%. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm right just being able to manipulate your bidlist isn't all that helpful.

I don't know how many DC employers go to each, but I got multiple biglaw offers at offices that didn't interview at my school when I mass mailed. My grades were okay at a T-14, not order of the coif or anything like that. I didn't even have ties to these markets (not NYC/DC) (having ties is overrated). Mass mailing does work. Especially now, I wouldn't rely solely on OCI.

Many of us have had different experiences. And I believe you went through the process before 2008 right? If the cost is close going to the school that will land you more DC interviews is a reasonable tiebreaker.

[lecsa]

.

[Tiago Splitter]

I was Class of 2011 (my class was screwed the most since the market started tanking around the time we did OCI). I mass mailed early and got multiple biglaw jobs in multiple markets, both in and out of OCI (including those that didn't interview at my school). What I found was that mass mailing helped a ton, ties don't really matter in regional and major market biglaw, and you should be proactive and don't rely solely on your school's OCI.

Thanks for sharing. I've seen people get jobs through mass mailing but I've also seen plenty of people with strong credentials get nothing from mass mailing. No one should rely only on OCI, but it's not like he can't mass mail if he goes to Duke.

[mtn663]

To follow up on my previous post, here's this summer's class at one of the top DC shops

Williams and Connolly

Chicago - 1
Columbia - 2
Cornell - 1
Duke - 3
GULC - 5
GW - 1
Harvard - 5
Michigan - 2
Northwestern - 2
NYU - 1
Penn - 2
Stanford - 3
Texas - 2
Vanderbilt - 1
Virginia - 2
Yale - 8

Obviously it's a pretty good spread across the T14 with the edge to HY, and this is a ridiculously small sample size, but NYU has a much larger class size than Duke and sent only one to Duke's three.

Again, this means very little without context (how many targeting the market, other firm summer classes, ect), but it reaffirms my suspicions that NYU isn't a harder hitter than Duke in DC.

I generally agree with your suspicion that non-DC area T14s are essentially the same in DC, though W&C isn't a great example as they do OCI at all T14 except NYU (I assume there's some great backstory there but I don't know it). But a couple other examples are also consistent (bearing in mind smaller class size at Duke)--

At Cov DC, associate numbers are 13 CLS, 13 NYU, 8 Duke, (12 UVA, 29 GULC)
At A&P DC, associate numbers are 7 CLS, 3 NYU, 4 Duke, (11 UVA, 26 GULC)

On the issue of placement of high Vault firms in NY, yes there is gap in placement btw HCN and everyone else, but probably not terribly important for OP's decision.

[lecsa]

.

[TigerDude]

I would put NW & Duke in the same class for costs, and above NYU for that reason. I would say NW 1st due to your openness to Chicago for work.

Good luck, you have helped a lot of people this cycle.

[thechancellor]

I'd say NU over Duke, mostly for reasons I've already said - but I had a much better impression of NU alums in DC, and the alumni network seems really active in DC from my lowly 0L perspective. Also, NU seems to open up Chicago/other midwestern doors a lot more than Duke, although obviously I don't have any real experience with it. And Chicago >>>> Durham.

[lawschool55]

I have very similar options and career goals as LS22.

Debt at repayment:
Columbia-270K
Penn- 240K
UVA-168K
NU-130K

I'm leaning UVA but have not negotiated yet either FWIW.

[ZGr88n]

I have very similar options and career goals as LS22.

Debt at repayment:
Columbia-270K
Penn- 240K
UVA-168K
NU-130K

I'm leaning UVA but have not negotiated yet either FWIW.

I just have a problem accepting anything over 150k debt (except for some very select schools), but I'm a 0L so...

[Law Sauce]

I have very similar options and career goals as LS22.

Debt at repayment:
Columbia-270K
Penn- 240K
UVA-168K
NU-130K

I'm leaning UVA but have not negotiated yet either FWIW.

I vote UVA. UVA has such a strong DC presence. No way Penn is worth much more than UVA for anything except NYC, and Columbia is still probably unnecessarily expensive for a very small/if any edge in DC. (now if you wanted NYC…)

If you have a midwest background like OP however, NW opens up Chicago which is another market. OP, why no UVA?

[kathj06]

I have identical offers at NU and Duke. Another factor is that NU has a $750 scholarship deposit deadline of 4/11, which is probably before one will hear back about negotiations from other schools. But I'm guessing the $750 might be worth it as insurance?

[lawschool22]

I have very similar options and career goals as LS22.

Debt at repayment:
Columbia-270K
Penn- 240K
UVA-168K
NU-130K

I'm leaning UVA but have not negotiated yet either FWIW.

I vote UVA. UVA has such a strong DC presence. No way Penn is worth much more than UVA for anything except NYC, and Columbia is still probably unnecessarily expensive for a very small/if any edge in DC. (now if you wanted NYC…)

If you have a midwest background like OP however, NW opens up Chicago which is another market. OP, why no UVA?

I was waitlisted at UVA.

[cotiger]

I was waitlisted at UVA.

Bastards.

[lawschool22]

I was waitlisted at UVA.

Bastards.

My thoughts exactly

[Attax]

I was waitlisted at UVA.

Bastards.

My thoughts exactly

Silly VLS. I can't believe they'd do that to you

[lawschool22]

I was waitlisted at UVA.

Bastards.

My thoughts exactly

Silly VLS. I can't believe they'd do that to you

Oh well, their loss :lol

In other news, it seems that NU is starting to creep up in the poll. Interesting...