Update: CLS $ vs Cornell $$$ Forum

[gta]

You can also use 2013 numbers:

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%

Ah, I forgot LST would not be updated to 2013 numbers until Monday

[buffalo_]

You can also use 2013 numbers:

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%

Ah, I forgot LST would not be updated to 2013 numbers until Monday

I am actually considering NYU heavily. I believe the LRAP to be superior to CLS incase I decide to do PI (either right away or after BigLaw). And NYU has something like 20% PI, so I do think self selection factors into the BigLaw hiring numbers. Maybe NYU is really closer to 70-72%. And NYU is also slightly less expensive than CLS.

Thoughts?

[jbagelboy]

You can also use 2013 numbers:

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%

Ah, I forgot LST would not be updated to 2013 numbers until Monday

I am actually considering NYU heavily. I believe the LRAP to be superior to CLS incase I decide to do PI (either right away or after BigLaw). And NYU has something like 20% PI, so I do think self selection factors into the BigLaw hiring numbers. Maybe NYU is really closer to 70-72%. And NYU is also slightly less expensive than CLS.

Thoughts?

NYU does have a great LRAP, but you don't sound like much of a PI devotee, certainly not enough to overcome the firm culture at either school once OCI comes around. Don't take offense - it's just that most 0Ls flirt with service work at some point and few wind up electing that path.
Re: price, it comes out the same at sticker since NyU is in a more expensive neighborhood.

At Columbia 75-80% of the class lands Big Law. At Duke its probably 55-60%. Twenty percent is MASSIVE difference. Better to have a safety net.

Why make up numbers when Law School Transparency is available? Fed Clerkship + BigLaw percentages (what OP stated he was interested in) for the three options here:

Columbia: 7.9 + 64.2 = 72.1%
NYU: 5.6 + 59.5 = 65.1%
Duke: 12.9 + 51.1 = 64.0%

Based on your goals, it appears NYU is the weakest option when factoring in cost (of course self-selection, PI may play a role, etc.).

You can also use 2013 numbers:

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%

gta - LST is a great resource, but at least for CLS we have more specific information on firm hiring. We also have exact #s for specific firms for the past few yrs if anyone cares (but 0Ls shouldnt know much about firms yet anyway).

[smaug_]

But either option at this juncture will plunge OP into a horrific debt cycle. Paying $215,000 off from Duke means absolutely needing to stay at a large firm for a decent amount of time. Yes, it's maybe 1.5-2 yrs less than the $300k at CLS, but it isnt a sufficiently large discount to truly give any additional flexibility career-wise.

2 years is a long time and we're talking about a lot of money. I think there are many reasons to go to CLS and I love it here. I just wouldn't pay full freight for it.

[lawschool22]

At Columbia 75-80% of the class lands Big Law. At Duke its probably 55-60%. Twenty percent is MASSIVE difference. Better to have a safety net.

Why make up numbers when Law School Transparency is available? Fed Clerkship + BigLaw percentages (what OP stated he was interested in) for the three options here:

Columbia: 7.9 + 64.2 = 72.1%
NYU: 5.6 + 59.5 = 65.1%
Duke: 12.9 + 51.1 = 64.0%

Based on your goals, it appears NYU is the weakest option when factoring in cost (of course self-selection, PI may play a role, etc.).

You can also use 2013 numbers:

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%

Related to this, I have a (genuine) question. Do we really think the Columbia number this year is sustainable or will be the norm? It seems like an outlier, but maybe it's not and NYC legal hiring is simply seeing a recovery. I just wanted to get the thoughts on this, because this number is showing up on TLS a lot lately (for good reason), but I want to make sure it is what we should be basing decisions on.

[Tiago Splitter]

Related to this, I have a (genuine) question. Do we really think the Columbia number this year is sustainable or will be the norm? It seems like an outlier, but maybe it's not and NYC legal hiring is simply seeing a recovery. I just wanted to get the thoughts on this, because this number is showing up on TLS a lot lately (for good reason), but I want to make sure it is what we should be basing decisions on.

I'd always recommend using multiple years of data, but even if you average 2012 and 2013 CLS comes in at 75% which wouldn't change the analysis. At least for the last couple of classes it isn't difficult for people who gun for NYC biglaw to get it. And especially with the reduced class size I don't this changing anytime soon.

[Hitchensian]

Might be slightly off-topic, but here are the Big Law (100+ attorneys) + fed clerkship rates averaged for the Classes of 2011-13, using the ABA's data:

Stanford University 75.3%
Columbia University 73.2%
University of Pennsylvania 71.1%
Harvard University 69.3%
Yale University 66.2%
University of Chicago 65.9%
New York University 62.1%
Northwestern University 60.1%
Duke University 60.0%
Cornell University 59.6%
University of Virginia 57.0%
University of California Berkeley 55.8%
University of Michigan Ann Arbor 51.2%
Georgetown University 42.2%

[buffalo_]

Thread TL;DR and just want the updated info?

Want: Mostly indifferent to biglaw and PI (maybe slight PI pref)

Prefer CLS cuz family, friends, SO, liked my visit a lot, but costs $90k more (ew).

[francesfarmer]

Thread TL;DR and just want the updated info?

Want: Mostly indifferent to biglaw and PI (maybe slight PI pref)

Prefer CLS cuz family, friends, SO, liked my visit a lot, but costs $90k more (ew).

How srs is it with the SO? You got a wife?

[buffalo_]

Thread TL;DR and just want the updated info?

Want: Mostly indifferent to biglaw and PI (maybe slight PI pref)

Prefer CLS cuz family, friends, SO, liked my visit a lot, but costs $90k more (ew).

How srs is it with the SO? You got a wife?

Not married. Pretty serious but I don't plan on getting married or having kids anytime soon (i.e. 10 years)

[francesfarmer]

Thread TL;DR and just want the updated info?

Want: Mostly indifferent to biglaw and PI (maybe slight PI pref)

Prefer CLS cuz family, friends, SO, liked my visit a lot, but costs $90k more (ew).

How srs is it with the SO? You got a wife?

Not married. Pretty serious but I don't plan on getting married or having kids anytime soon (i.e. 10 years)

I think the answer is Cornell. You can study on the bus down from Ithaca?

ETA: totally not trying to be a dick, I know Cornell isn't what you want to hear.

[TheSpanishMain]

ETA: totally not trying to be a dick, I know Cornell isn't what you want to hear.

It's pretty obvious from this and other posts about sticker debt in general that OP is trying to justify CLS with 200k+ debt. I totally understand the temptation, given that CLS is such an amazing institution, but I still wouldn't do it. That debt will fuck your life up good, man. Dat splitter life.

[Wiggly]

...

[northwood]

Cornell

[kaiser]

237K for CLS? Gimme a break. Def Cornell. 150K debt is no easy burden to bear, but you will thank your lucky stars that you didnt take on nearly 90K extra once you actually have to pay thta off.

[jbagelboy]

I disagree with other posters in this thread and I think Columbia is totally justifiable at $85k cost difference from Cornell. Probably almost everyone at Columbia or NYU had a comparable scholarship at Cornell and turned it down. This advice may cohere with the debt reduction rhetoric on TLS (which I whole-heartedly endorse) but it's far from an obvious conclusion and does not comport with the reality of how these decisions are made on the ground. Granted,we must approach some of these reckless choices with skepticism, but I'm still unconvinced by Cornell here.

Living in NYC over Ithaca alone justifies $10-15k/year IMO (and that accounts for a large part of that $85k gap). And the difference in career prospects at the V20 level is no joke. I wouldn't be surprised if the CLS cost figure has been taken from the website or finaid info, which is considerably exaggerated over actual cost/debt levels students accrue. Combined with OP's social-institutional leanings with SO, ect., I have no qualms endorsing Columbia in this instance.

[Wiggly]

...

[jbagelboy]

Also I've heard neutral to negative reviews of Cornell's support for public interest career trajectories; while I'm sure you'll land up at a firm anyway, Columbia's commitment to human rights/public service is relatively sincere.

[TheodoreKGB]

.

[buffalo_]

Didn't you make a TLS Tipsheet? This thread is pretty hypocritical considering you were pretty blunt with your "TCR here is.." advice. Based on your guidelines the TCR is to take Cornell (and delete this thread).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law



But even if you didn't get that, LSAT logic tells us that an ad hominem attack of hypocrisy does nothing to discredit me in either post.

[buffalo_]

I disagree with other posters in this thread and I think Columbia is totally justifiable at $85k cost difference from Cornell. Probably almost everyone at Columbia or NYU had a comparable scholarship at Cornell and turned it down. This advice may cohere with the debt reduction rhetoric on TLS (which I whole-heartedly endorse) but it's far from an obvious conclusion and does not comport with the reality of how these decisions are made on the ground. Granted,we must approach some of these reckless choices with skepticism, but I'm still unconvinced by Cornell here.

Living in NYC over Ithaca alone justifies $10-15k/year IMO (and that accounts for a large part of that $85k gap). And the difference in career prospects at the V20 level is no joke. I wouldn't be surprised if the CLS cost figure has been taken from the website or finaid info, which is considerably exaggerated over actual cost/debt levels students accrue. Combined with OP's social-institutional leanings with SO, ect., I have no qualms endorsing Columbia in this instance.

I didn't straight up use CLS estimates, I shaved a bit off of both CLS and Cornell where I knew I could save (health insurance). But I also shaved some of the CLS personal and living expenses budget, which will be too high for me. I don't need a new laptop and I am going to exercise the cheapest housing option.

[TheSpanishMain]

Are you decided on CLS? This sort of has the feel of one of those threads where the OP has really already decided and is just looking for affirmation. I don't mean this as a dig or anything; anyone with these options clearly has some solid credentials. You just seem like you have your thumb on the scales pretty hard here.

[buffalo_]

Are you decided on CLS? This sort of has the feel of one of those threads where the OP has really already decided and is just looking for affirmation. I don't mean this as a dig or anything; anyone with these options clearly has some solid credentials. You just seem like you have your thumb on the scales pretty hard here.

I would say I am certainly leaning toward CLS, but it is far from decided. It's a lot of money to not fully think it through. I am very appreciative of everyone's input on this thread.