UVA Full-Ride (Dillard) vs. Harvard $30k/yr aid for Big Law Forum

[Blessedassurance]

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[twenty 8]

You'll have to forgive our friend Twenty 8, who only recently became aware that it's not uncommon for law students to fail to find legal work after graduating.

You may have a point there, part of it being naïveness can be your friend.

Listen, after my LSAT I was contacted by a fair number of schools, some offering scholarships of one degree or another. The school offering me full tuition had a great legal curriculum producing a nine month employment rate of 90% with a median income of $75,000. Plus I’d be going to school in my hometown. All of this was suddenly dropped at my feet because of a high LSAT. How could anyone turn that down?

I studied hard and received good grades. Then I worked during the summer and was offered at a salary significantly more than the school’s median, plus the paycheck is all mine. I will say had I known that there were nearly twice as many law students as available jobs, that detail could have been a game changer (not so much what school, but whether or not to apply to LS.).

[lzack]

I'm in almost the exact same situation -- I'm choosing between Dillard at UVA and Harvard. The difference is that I don't expect any financial aid at Harvard. I recently posted about this here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=225857.

Because of my goals (PI in DC or NY) I'm heavily leaning towards UVA. Ten years of Harvard debt with a PI career is scary to me, despite LIPP -- I don't ever want to have to compromise my goals just to stay afloat financially, as it would defeat the entire purpose of investing in Harvard for theoretically limitless opportunities. However, if I was aiming for biglaw, I'd choose Harvard, especially in your situation with some institutional financial support. I think you can be confident that with your goals, you would have the salary to pay back the loans, and the investment would be worthwhile for your career path.

That said, if you do decide on the UVA Dillard... see you in the fall

[cotiger]

Many people live in the dorms for three years. There's nothing wrong with living in the dorms. Your argument is that it is unreasonable to live in the dorms specifically built for law students?

Never said unreasonable. Just said unlikely, and that we should use the most likely situation rather than the ideal cheapest situation as our baseline. But if there's a significant number of people who live in the smallest single dorm rooms all three years, then perhaps I'm mistaken. I just know that as an adult, I would find it really tough to go back to dorm life and twin-size beds again. I imagine many people try it for 1L and then get the eff outta there. The fact that there's only 261 of those rooms for a student body of 1900 makes it tough to believe that three years living there is actually common. But again, I don't go to Harvard, so perhaps I'm totally off base.

As for interest, you're calculating one year's worth on the entire amount taken out to get your estimate of $7k of interest. But 1L and 2L will have two and three years interest on them. I don't know anything about Perkins loans, but taking your word that OP will get $4k/yr in interest-free loans and your $8k/yr reduction in COL, that still results in $18k worth of interest

I'm not actually. I looked at actual interest as calculated by the lending institution and told you the amount. The loans disburse at different points in the year and interest is calculated accordingly. You are making some abstract calculations and I am telling you based on actual experience.

Yeah, dude. You are. You said 7k interest on 132k principle. That's a 5.3% average interest rate over one year.

First of all, that's cheaper than the interest rate you're going to get on any of your loans except for the interest-free 4k (which won't reduce the average rate to that level). Second of all, that's a 5.3% rate for one year. Loans for 1L and 2L have two and three years of accumulated interest.

Sure, semesterly disbursement will reduce the total slightly. But not even close to what you're claiming.

I don't feel like engaging with your innumeracy any more.

Good luck with your decision, OP. You have some great options.

[jbagelboy]

However, the major way you're reducing that estimated COA is by 1) massively reducing COL and 2) miscalculating interest.

If you can live on $1400/mo in Cambridge for 3 years, then sure, COL will be $8k/yr lower. That means living in a 109 sqft Gropius dorm room for three years and rarely eating out or going out for three years. I believe that that's possible, just very unlikely, and so it's not appropriate to use for estimations.

Many people live in the dorms for three years. There's nothing wrong with living in the dorms. Your argument is that it is unreasonable to live in the dorms specifically built for law students?

As for interest, you're calculating one year's worth on the entire amount taken out to get your estimate of $7k of interest. But 1L and 2L will have two and three years interest on them. I don't know anything about Perkins loans, but taking your word that OP will get $4k/yr in interest-free loans and your $8k/yr reduction in COL, that still results in $18k worth of interest

I'm not actually. I looked at actual interest as calculated by the lending institution and told you the amount. The loans disburse at different points in the year and interest is calculated accordingly. You are making some abstract calculations and I am telling you based on actual experience.

I really wish someone else with at least 30k grants would comment. your living-like-a-monk assertions are laughable. plenty of people live in the dorms all three years (again it's 7 grand a year). I mean you can splurge if you want but that is irrelevant to the discussion. 20 something grand minus 8k is 12 something grand. Subtract rent and you have a little over 5 thousand. There's a 1500 allowance for travel. That brings it to About 7 grand. Add savings from the allowance for books and supplies (I haven't bought a single book since 1L but I'm not gonna use myself as an example). And you're looking at close to 8 grand. If your argument is that living on ~1000 per month (with rent, internet, gym, water, electricity etc., paid for) is pauper-esque, I don't know what to tell you.

cambridge is expensive if you're going out to eat and doing other shrewy shit like balling at museums and the omg-omg-omg we gotta try that new restaurant!!!!!!! it's glutten free!!!!"

there are a lot of people here for whom money is not a problem but that's not who we're talking about here.

It sounds like you've grown accustomed to a rather sad, limited existence.. maybe you were k-jd? Do people actually sustain themselves living in a college dorm throughout their mid-20's? For those of us who have been working professionals, lived as adults, per se, in real apartments, with or without significant others, with actual kitchens/living rooms/ect and need a little more in life than dorm showers, target appliances, frozen vegetables, and netflix - where are we in your model?. Remember that the issue here is what the actual OP would reasonably spend to be comfortable and prepared to compete and thrive in his personal/academic environment, not a theoretical gadget A, occupant-of-X-space and consumer-of-Y-life-sustaining-goods.

Aside from the Gropius assumption, which seems entirely untenable over 3 years, one could spend <$1000/month in Cambridge, but it does imply zero flexibility. What if you need a new suit? There goes a months' budget. Or a new winter coat? It's fucking cold in new england. Or when your wallet gets stolen?

Sure, you can forgo the Bermuda spring break trip with all your bougie friends, but could you really never visit NY/DC friends on wkends (my Harvard/MIT friends visit me pretty regularly, they couldn't have made it through the winter otherwise)? Or your best college friends' wedding in Santa Barbara, or your grandmother's funeral - would you miss it because the air fare blows your budget? You make fun of GF, but what if you have celiac and you have to shop/eat gluten free or your body shuts down? (It's a spectrum so quite a few people would live healthier w/o gluten). What if you get strep & a stomach virus in one week and you don't have much of a choice but seamless?

Or worse, what if you become extremely dehydrated, or get frostbite, or alcohol poisoning, and have to spend a night in the emergency room and accumulate massive, non-fully recoverable hospital bills? Or if you need a root canal - there goes your deductible, and most of your month's budget!

What if you have a relationship, or you actually want to start one? Are you going to take your SO to a date in the dining hall? And not to gender-box, but if you're male and want to propose - you gonna find a ring under budget?

What if you want to join a competitive international moot court team, and HLS funds your plane ticket and housing but not your food or transport on site?

All of these things have happened to me or someone I know and some variant of them happens to everyone, every year, and makes a $1000/month budget living in a college dormitory during your most active early adult years pretty ridiculous.

I think the accurate figure would land somewhere between blessedassurance and cotiger's estimates, with float for living standards.

[patogordo]

why is every post in this thread like 5000 words long

stop and think about it for two seconds and you'll see why "you can live frugally" makes no difference when comparing relative costs of two schools

[Blessedassurance]

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[cotiger]

Yeah, dude. You are. You said 7k interest on 132k principle. That's a 5.3% average interest rate over one year.

First of all, that's cheaper than the interest rate you're going to get on any of your loans except for the interest-free 4k (which won't reduce the average rate to that level). Second of all, that's a 5.3% rate for one year. Loans for 1L and 2L have two and three years of accumulated interest.

Sure, semesterly disbursement will reduce the total slightly. But not even close to what you're claiming.

I don't feel like engaging with your innumeracy any more.

Good luck with your decision, OP. You have some great options.

i would like to paste a screenshot of my loans with interest just so you would shut up. On the other hand, i'm thinking it's not worth it considering you're a garden-variety shit 0L adamantly arguing about things you know absolutely nothing about.

why are you lecturing me on shit you possibly have no way of knowing considering I'm giving you information based on personal experience?

Because math!

You're getting a 3.0% APR if taking out $22k semesterly and only accumulating 7k in interest after three years.

If you managed to swing that, please do share with the rest of us.

eta: damnit. didn't last with non-engagement long. also, jbagelboy gets it exactly right. patogordo, too.

[Blessedassurance]

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[Blessedassurance]

never mind, actually. i have no idea why i, against good reason, decided to contribute to an on-topic forum.

[Mal Reynolds]

BA is really weird.

[cotiger]

ICYMI, BA went on a nice, misogynistic rant against jbagelboy's shrewy, irritable bowel syndromy, generally useless SO. Also shared that he was single.

Truly a TLS delight. Keep it classy, my friend.

[Blessedassurance]

ICYMI, BA went on a nice, sexist rant against jbagelboy's shrewy, irritable bowel syndromy, generally useless SO. Also shared that he was single.

Truly a TLS delight. Keep it classy, my friend.

i think you're an aspie fuck. add that to my tab.

user has been banned for losing his shit in the on-topics

[Mal Reynolds]

ICYMI, BA went on a nice, misogynistic rant against jbagelboy's shrewy, irritable bowel syndromy, generally useless SO. Also shared that he was single.

Truly a TLS delight. Keep it classy, my friend.

He gets in trouble for abusing anonymous posting pretty often too.

[DrStudMuffin]

BA is really weird.

+1

[bananatopia]

deleted

[cotiger]

Simple interest is accumulated on the loans up until graduation (technically six months after grad), at which point it is captialized.

Also, can I see a source for this? I haven't seen this anywhere outside of TLS, and want to make sure it's accurate.

It was according to the LST guy iirc, and I trust that he's gotten it right. I haven't independently verified it, though.

For all our sakes, it better be just simple interest until grad..

[radrose1]

Would a Levy at Penn change any of your opinions?

[twenty]

Would a Levy at Penn change any of your opinions?

It would change mine. It was a coin-flip before, and now I'd probably lean Penn with the Levy.