Overheard at ASW Forum

[manu6926]

...

[pedestrian]

Obligatory at this point: the most famous gunner of the HLS ASW asked Dean Martha Minow (!) during the Q&A session what she thought justice was.

So a gunner = curious, passionate student?

So... it was you who asked, huh?

No. As a 0L, I was just wondering whether "gunners" are annoying, bragging, overly competitive law students who talk too much in class, or whether they are curious nerds who just have some interesting questions to ask. I thought it was the former.

That's not an interesting question. The thing is, gunners think they are the latter but everyone else sees the former.

[manu6926]

...

[TheSpanishMain]

Obligatory at this point: the most famous gunner of the HLS ASW asked Dean Martha Minow (!) during the Q&A session what she thought justice was.

So a gunner = curious, passionate student?

So... it was you who asked, huh?

No. As a 0L, I was just wondering whether "gunners" are annoying, bragging, overly competitive law students who talk too much in class, or whether they are curious nerds who just have some interesting questions to ask. I thought it was the former.

Asking those kind of incredibly vague, open questions with everyone else standing there makes it look like you're just trying to broadcast, "Hey, everyone! Look how interesting and philosophical I am!" If you want to ask something like that one on one, knock yourself out (although I suspect that after a few minutes the professor would be annoyed), but don't waste everyone's time by forcing them down the weird rabbit hole with you.

[06162014123]

.

[Rahviveh]

I think you can usually tell who's being genuine and who's looking for attention, at least over the course of the semester. Some of the gunners who initially were very annoying eventually start asking good questions or making good points. But you can also tell that others are trying to suck up to the professor for whatever reason. On the other hand, most of your fellow students will probably find you annoying, period, if you take away time from the professor.

For a 0L though I think the bar should be pretty low for asking dumb questions. Most don't spend tons of time on TLS like we do, and the point of these things is to ask questions about specifics.

Bahahaha. I've never heard of a question like that HLS one though. I'm gonna try to do some tours and hopefully get a question like that, but I dunno if admissions will let me.

EDIT: BTW if you're trying to make a good impression, gunning during the mock class or during a 1L class as a 0L is TCR

[Cicero76]

Not from a 0L but a tour guide told me on at least three separate occasions something to the effect of "well, like, being a girl alone at night is scary in [pretty nice area of a mid sized city where TONS of students live] so you probably shouldn't live there, or just don't go out at night."

Btdubs, coming from a large city I mean duh, make smart choices. But man she irked me (and scared some other 0Ls lmao).

Was this at Yale?

[politics89]

I overheard one girl talking abou how someone had told her not to do 0L prep and she was scoffing about how much she loved substantive, deep reading and if they insisted she just spend her summer on a beach she could read it all there without a problem.

[Ricky-Bobby]

I overheard one girl talking abou how someone had told her not to do 0L prep and she was scoffing about how much she loved substantive, deep reading and if they insisted she just spend her summer on a beach she could read it all there without a problem.

Oh yeah, nothing makes a beach vacation more relaxing than lazily leafing through some "substantive, deep reading."

That will be the girl full-on briefing cases 3L and complaining about a lack of time to study for the bar.

[meb1212]

I overheard one girl talking abou how someone had told her not to do 0L prep and she was scoffing about how much she loved substantive, deep reading and if they insisted she just spend her summer on a beach she could read it all there without a problem.

I just want someone to insist that I spend my summer on a beach.

[transferror]

I overheard one girl talking abou how someone had told her not to do 0L prep and she was scoffing about how much she loved substantive, deep reading and if they insisted she just spend her summer on a beach she could read it all there without a problem.

I just want someone to insist that I spend my summer on a beach.

You should really spend your summer on a beach. No, really, I insist.

[meb1212]

I overheard one girl talking abou how someone had told her not to do 0L prep and she was scoffing about how much she loved substantive, deep reading and if they insisted she just spend her summer on a beach she could read it all there without a problem.

I just want someone to insist that I spend my summer on a beach.

You should really spend your summer on a beach. No, really, I insist.

Whew! Now I can actually justify quitting my job immediately and going to the beach. Done and Done.

[A. Nony Mouse]

No. As a 0L, I was just wondering whether "gunners" are annoying, bragging, overly competitive law students who talk too much in class, or whether they are curious nerds who just have some interesting questions to ask. I thought it was the former.

One of the issues is context. ASW isn't really the time for in-depth discussions about philosophical questions - people are there to learn more about the school, which is frequently pretty nitty-gritty stuff like curriculum, employment stats, bar passage, financial aid, etc. They're not usually intended as free-wheeling discussions of legal philosophy (even if you sit in on a class, classes are pretty focused to specific issues). Unless there was something unique to Harvard's ASW, that probably wasn't a great time to ask that question (of that person). Some gunners are people who just don't get that kind of thing.

[McAvoy]

When I was in undergrad, I used to ask many questions during profs' office hours (but not during lectures because I'm shy). Would that behavior be considered gunner-ish in law school? Not that I would really care much. No one would track my whereabouts anyway. But I'm just curious.

I don't think you could really compare the two that easily, as far as gunners go.

In undergrad, if you show over-the-top initiative and passion, you speak more than everyone else in class, and you often attend office hours and form a relationship with the professor, you're significantly more inclined to receive a favorable grade. In law school, the passion you demonstrate and the relationship you form with the professor are meaningless because of blind grading.

Also, in undergrad, those "gunner" traits might be annoying to your classmates, but they are almost always benign. In law school, where there is a forced curve, you will be looked at very unfavorably for monopolizing discussion, wasting others' time, and appearing overly competitive.

[A. Nony Mouse]

When I was in undergrad, I used to ask many questions during profs' office hours (but not during lectures because I'm shy). Would that behavior be considered gunner-ish in law school? Not that I would really care much. No one would track my whereabouts anyway. But I'm just curious.

I don't think you could really compare the two that easily, as far as gunners go.

In undergrad, if you show over-the-top initiative and passion, you speak more than everyone else in class, and you often attend office hours and form a relationship with the professor, you're significantly more inclined to receive a favorable grade. In law school, the passion you demonstrate and the relationship you form with the professor are meaningless because of blind grading.

Also, in undergrad, those "gunner" traits might be annoying to your classmates, but they are almost always benign. In law school, where there is a forced curve, you will be looked at very unfavorably for monopolizing discussion, wasting others' time, and appearing overly competitive.

Well, first, the above only applies to questions during class, not during office hours, which was what was expressly asked about. But second, despite blind grading, relationships with professors aren't meaningless - professors can go to bat for you and serve as references/write LORs. (And some will bump grades for participation, although this is fairly uncommon.)

[CookieDough]

I overheard one girl talking abou how someone had told her not to do 0L prep and she was scoffing about how much she loved substantive, deep reading and if they insisted she just spend her summer on a beach she could read it all there without a problem.

I just want someone to insist that I spend my summer on a beach.

COME TO THE BEACH! Hth.

[crit_racer]

(at the WUSTL ASW)

Student1: "I'm looking at WUSTL and Emory and UVA and Harvard"

Student2: (incredulously) "Wait, so did you get into Harvard?"

Student1: "Well I'm still waiting to hear back"

[Typhoon24]

(at the WUSTL ASW)

Student1: "I'm looking at WUSTL and Emory and UVA and Harvard"

Student2: (incredulously) "Wait, so did you get into Harvard?"

Student1: "Well I'm still waiting to hear back"

lol

[pedestrian]

When I was in undergrad, I used to ask many questions during profs' office hours (but not during lectures because I'm shy). Would that behavior be considered gunner-ish in law school? Not that I would really care much. No one would track my whereabouts anyway. But I'm just curious.

I don't think you could really compare the two that easily, as far as gunners go.

In undergrad, if you show over-the-top initiative and passion, you speak more than everyone else in class, and you often attend office hours and form a relationship with the professor, you're significantly more inclined to receive a favorable grade. In law school, the passion you demonstrate and the relationship you form with the professor are meaningless because of blind grading.

Also, in undergrad, those "gunner" traits might be annoying to your classmates, but they are almost always benign. In law school, where there is a forced curve, you will be looked at very unfavorably for monopolizing discussion, wasting others' time, and appearing overly competitive.

Well, first, the above only applies to questions during class, not during office hours, which was what was expressly asked about. But second, despite blind grading, relationships with professors aren't meaningless - professors can go to bat for you and serve as references/write LORs. (And some will bump grades for participation, although this is fairly uncommon.)

The problem with gunners is that they lack very basic self-awareness and social intelligence. By the time that you get to law school, you should have the maturity to check yourself and evaluate whether what you have to say is really (1) worth precious class time, and (2) more important than what other people may have to say. It is a question of context. Sometimes it is a "tragedy of the commons" problem, where overusing finite shared resources diminishes the law school experience for everyone. Sometimes gunners aren't even gaining an advantage, just demonstrating what narcissistic idiots they are.

The same considerations apply when asking inane, self-serving questions during office hours but in that case only the professor will be annoyed.

I'll stop being unfunny now.

[KMart]

Bump for the ASWs coming up for the next cycle.

[suppy183]

What a great thread.

[Tanicius]

(at the WUSTL ASW)

Student1: "I'm looking at WUSTL and Emory and UVA and Harvard"

Student2: (incredulously) "Wait, so did you get into Harvard?"

Student1: "Well I'm still waiting to hear back"

That is awesome. There was a person in my law school's "Class of 20__" Facebook group that talked about how he still wasn't committed and would take Stanford if he got off the waitlist. He didn't.

[Tanicius]

The problem with gunners is that they lack very basic self-awareness and social intelligence. By the time that you get to law school, you should have the maturity to check yourself and evaluate whether what you have to say is really (1) worth precious class time, and (2) more important than what other people may have to say. It is a question of context. Sometimes it is a "tragedy of the commons" problem, where overusing finite shared resources diminishes the law school experience for everyone. Sometimes gunners aren't even gaining an advantage, just demonstrating what narcissistic idiots they are.

The same considerations apply when asking inane, self-serving questions during office hours but in that case only the professor will be annoyed.

I'll stop being unfunny now.

At the same time, it's dumb to treat the social skills involved in these things as "basic" or intuitive. Criticizing social intelligence and making it sound so easy is just another way for egotistical law students to feel like they're better than each other. All the pointing and laughing that went on 1L year was just a more petulant version of high school.

[RSN]

Great bump from a year ago.

To some 1Ls at a lunch last week: "So how cutthroat is it really? I'm a mommy so I can ask that."

[storpappa]

"Thanks for the tour. We didn't pass any bathrooms."