Cardozo vs. Wash U? Neither? Forum

[BigZuck]

just go wherever the hell you want...we really don't care what you do...life is too short to argue with randos on the Internet.

This

[Unicorn1]

Bumping this.

Started studying again, and was not satisfied with my progress and decided that I'd just go to Cardozo and try to be in the top 10% and if not drop out.

But then today I got into Fordham off the WL with 20k a yr scholly. I don't know what my total COA would be but living costs would be the same as if I went to Cardozo but I'd be taking out 90k additionally in loans as opposed to going to Cardozo for free.

Thoughts on Cardozo full ride vs. Fordham with 20k a year?

And what if I could live at home to minimize living expenses and it was just the cost of tuition? Would that be a difference maker?

[stugots]

Disclosure: 0L

Since you are definitely not sitting out a year to retake/reapply, and since your goals are somewhat loosely defined (sounds like BigLaw or MidLaw, I think), Fordham is clearly the better choice. You will still be fighting an uphill battle, as you have to be top 1/3 (ideally top 1/4 or better) at Fordham to be well-positioned for BigLaw.

Commuting to law school will probably suck. Six figures of debt will definitely suck. You'll have to work hard AND be lucky to get good grades at either school. But top 15-20% at Fordham would put you in a much better position than top 10% at Cardozo. And if you have what it takes to be top 10% at Cardozo, you probably have what it takes to be top 20% at Fordham.

That said, you need to be prepared for the following scenario: you finish 1L year and your grades are at or very slightly above median. You've already taken out $30k+ in loans. If it's psychologically difficult for you to come to terms with sitting out another year right now, imagine how hard it will be after you've invested all that time and money.

[ManoftheHour]

My only real goal is not to be poor.

Retake.

3. Social effects refer to me very likely not being able to find gainful employment, not being in law school, spending a lot of time studying, and being a 25-26 year old with no job and a very indeterminate future. It's just not a desirable position lifewise when trying to meet new people, especially of the opposite sex.

You're doing it wrong. First, freedom, dude. You can do whatever you want when you're not studying. I took 2 years and I really enjoyed them. Got to work fun jobs, pick up new hobbies, meet a lot of new people. For one of my years off that I took studying the LSAT, I worked at a shitty coffee shop (which by the way, was tons of fun) with a lot of attractive 20 year old something girls. The fact that I was "going to law school" actually helped me with them. I don't get why someone with a passionate dream/goal and is doing everything he or she can to achieve that dream would be a turn off to people of the opposite sex. People saw me as driven and smart (not saying I actually am either of those either). I had fun.

Besides, girls are smart and successful these days. They care about this shit a lot less than you think because they don't need a man to support them. I know a med school resident engaged to an "artist." I know a girl at MIT dating a 26 year old guy that works as an usher in a movie theatre.

[NYC-WVU]

1. I don't need it badly enough to work at McDonalds. That doesn't mean I don't need a real job.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I have a somewhat relevant job-related question that I think about often.

First, I also wouldn't want to work in a franchise, where my boss is a franchise owner, rather than part of a corporate structure. But what about some place like Whole Foods? Is there upward mobility at a place like that? I've been stuck in the same spot for nearly ten years in a law firm (soon going to school) and often wonder: if I had started out putting flowers in buckets at Whole Foods, might I be a regional flower buyer now (or something)? Does upward mobility still exist?

If it does, you might want to suck up your pride for a few years while you're a grunt and enjoy being able to turn off your job when you leave "the office." I assume there would be considerably less competition than law school or the legal field in general, and after a while, you'd have a legit position. (Is this unrealistic?) In the meantime, if you hate it, you could be studying for the LSAT.

[star fox]

Get a job and stop caring about other people's perception of you so much. If you want to go to law school re-take the LSAT. You have a very good GPA. You can find a job doing whatever and get into some really good law schools by studying for a long time on the LSAT. Every point matters, you don't need a 175+.

What are your salary demands right now for "good job"? Chances are you should lower them. Don't live in NYC if it's too expensive for you.

[03152016]

So the options are -- Cardozo full-ride and drop out if not in 10% vs Fordham with 20k (and presumably not drop out)? Potentially zero COL either way?

Let's take Fordham cost of attendance and subtract all cost of living expenses (room and board), subtract health insurance, and 20k per year for your scholarship. According to LS22's cost calculator, if this is debt-financed, you're $121k in the hole at graduation. If I generously assume that all graduates reporting employment in 101+ person firms are in market paying biglaw jobs, the biglaw+fedclerk number is 36.6%.

Want to know something funny about that number? It is the exact same percentage, down to the decimal point, of graduates who were not able to find full-time, long-term, JD-required jobs nine months after graduation. So your chances of biglaw+fedclerk at Fordham are equal to your chances of not getting FT/LT/JD-required work (with $121k hanging over your head).

And wait, there's more. One out of every seven "employed" students was working a part-time or short-term gig funded by the school. We're not even talking LT/FT. They're temping with part-time hours. And that number includes some poor soul working a non-professional job funded by the school.

If these are your options, please, for the love of god, go to Cardozo and drop out after a year. Then you can go back to playing poker or whatever else you end up doing and put this whole law school nightmare behind you without $121k of debt to deal with.

[Unicorn1]

Do you need biglaw to pay back 120k in debt though?

I mean obv a 40k a year job won't cut it but something in the 60-70 range starting won't be suicide inducing.

[03152016]

Do you need biglaw to pay back 120k in debt though?

I mean obv a 40k a year job won't cut it but something in the 60-70 range starting won't be suicide inducing.

Expect 40k to 60k, 70k is an uncommon outcome. See this chart: http://www.nalp.org/class_of_2012_salar ... tion_curve

Let me paint you a picture. Let's say you get a 50k a year job (which will be a huge relief, since a third of your class will be unemployed or temping). That's $2900 takehome monthly. Nothing to sneeze at; plenty of lawyers make far less. And let's say you decide to go for a typical 10 year repayment plan; after all, you don't want to be dealing with this debt forever. Your monthly payment on a 10 year plan is $1368.40 factoring in 6.41% interest on a Grad Plus loan. That leaves $1531.60 for everything else. That's plenty to live off of, you figure.

Of course, you'll probably be a little tired of living with your parents after three years of law school, so you decide to rent an apartment. Problem is, you're priced out of everything remotely decent. Your best option is a $1100 studio in Bay Ridge with leaky pipes and an upstairs neighbor who practices salsa dancing until 2 AM and a super who only speaks Mandarin. But hey, you've gotten yourself set up with a new pad, and it's only 20 stops and two transfers away from your firm! And you have $431.60 left for food, transportation, dry cleaning, personal expenses, traveling, going out, etc. Well, for some of that anyways.

Alright, you say, then I will not opt for the ten year plan. I will take advantage of IBR/PAYE, and make modest payments over 240 or 300 months before my debt is forgiven. Fair enough, that would probably be more practical than Plan A. But under IBR you'd end up paying $191k altogether with a tax bomb on the forgiven $123k. That's a lot more than the $121k you took out. On the other hand, if you're lucky enough to qualify for PAYE, you'll total around $86k in payments over 20 years, with a tax bomb on the forgiven $190k. Sounds pretty good, right? You can enjoy $2600-$2700 monthly takehome, which again, is nothing to sneeze at.

But the debt is still there. It follows you around. Your debt to income ratio is astronomically high; nowhere near the 43% you need for a mortgage -- say goodbye to owning your own place. Your friends settle down and buy homes, meanwhile you're still renting, moving from place to place when you get priced out. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that; you may not mind renting at all. But you wish you had a choice in the matter.

And you constantly worry. You worry about changes being made to the program that could affect you. You worry about how you're going to save up for that tax bomb. You worry about what women will think of a man with a negative six figure net worth for the next 20 long years. You are trapped by this debt. Even if you declare bankruptcy this debt is non-dischargeable. It follows you everywhere you go. You dream of fleeing the country, starting a new life on some distant beach, marrying a local girl, opening up a bicycle shop or a taqueria or giving piano lessons or anything other than continue this Sisyphean task, year after year, just to get back to zero. You wake up in a cold sweat, finally understanding the terrible mistake you have made. But it is too late.

tl;dr: retake

My only real goal is not to be poor. Big Law is nice but outside of t14 it's a super long shot anywhere. I would like to be a lawyer, but don't want to be one so badly that I would risk being very poor.

[bizzike]

the worst case scenario if I go to Cardozo would be graduating with 50k or so in debt and only being able to find a 40k a year job. That would surely suck but it wouldn't be a suicidal amount of debt or scenario.

False. The worst case scenario is going to Cardozo, losing three years, being 50k in debt and unemployed. That happens to over 20% of Cardozo students(Law school transparency). And that 20% doesn't necessarily correlate with class ranking. Also IMHO making 35-40k in NYC sounds like hell.

[bugsy33]

Should have applied to Illinois OP. I know a few people that have near full rides with worse stats than you; would've been just as good as WashU.

I'd reapply next cycle. Retake if you can.

[Unicorn1]

the worst case scenario if I go to Cardozo would be graduating with 50k or so in debt and only being able to find a 40k a year job. That would surely suck but it wouldn't be a suicidal amount of debt or scenario.

False. The worst case scenario is going to Cardozo, losing three years, being 50k in debt and unemployed. That happens to over 20% of Cardozo students(Law school transparency). And that 20% doesn't necessarily correlate with class ranking. Also IMHO making 35-40k in NYC sounds like hell.

Even in this scenario, I would not be suicidal. Though this would never be me, since I would bet my life savings that I would never be in that 20%.

[Unicorn1]

Do you need biglaw to pay back 120k in debt though?

I mean obv a 40k a year job won't cut it but something in the 60-70 range starting won't be suicide inducing.

Expect 40k to 60k, 70k is an uncommon outcome. See this chart: http://www.nalp.org/class_of_2012_salar ... tion_curve

Let me paint you a picture. Let's say you get a 50k a year job (which will be a huge relief, since a third of your class will be unemployed or temping). That's $2900 takehome monthly. Nothing to sneeze at; plenty of lawyers make far less. And let's say you decide to go for a typical 10 year repayment plan; after all, you don't want to be dealing with this debt forever. Your monthly payment on a 10 year plan is $1368.40 factoring in 6.41% interest on a Grad Plus loan. That leaves $1531.60 for everything else. That's plenty to live off of, you figure.

Of course, you'll probably be a little tired of living with your parents after three years of law school, so you decide to rent an apartment. Problem is, you're priced out of everything remotely decent. Your best option is a $1100 studio in Bay Ridge with leaky pipes and an upstairs neighbor who practices salsa dancing until 2 AM and a super who only speaks Mandarin. But hey, you've gotten yourself set up with a new pad, and it's only 20 stops and two transfers away from your firm! And you have $431.60 left for food, transportation, dry cleaning, personal expenses, traveling, going out, etc. Well, for some of that anyways.

Alright, you say, then I will not opt for the ten year plan. I will take advantage of IBR/PAYE, and make modest payments over 240 or 300 months before my debt is forgiven. Fair enough, that would probably be more practical than Plan A. But under IBR you'd end up paying $191k altogether with a tax bomb on the forgiven $123k. That's a lot more than the $121k you took out. On the other hand, if you're lucky enough to qualify for PAYE, you'll total around $86k in payments over 20 years, with a tax bomb on the forgiven $190k. Sounds pretty good, right? You can enjoy $2600-$2700 monthly takehome, which again, is nothing to sneeze at.

But the debt is still there. It follows you around. Your debt to income ratio is astronomically high; nowhere near the 43% you need for a mortgage -- say goodbye to owning your own place. Your friends settle down and buy homes, meanwhile you're still renting, moving from place to place when you get priced out. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that; you may not mind renting at all. But you wish you had a choice in the matter.

And you constantly worry. You worry about changes being made to the program that could affect you. You worry about how you're going to save up for that tax bomb. You worry about what women will think of a man with a negative six figure net worth for the next 20 long years. You are trapped by this debt. Even if you declare bankruptcy this debt is non-dischargeable. It follows you everywhere you go. You dream of fleeing the country, starting a new life on some distant beach, marrying a local girl, opening up a bicycle shop or a taqueria or giving piano lessons or anything other than continue this Sisyphean task, year after year, just to get back to zero. You wake up in a cold sweat, finally understanding the terrible mistake you have made. But it is too late.

tl;dr: retake

My only real goal is not to be poor. Big Law is nice but outside of t14 it's a super long shot anywhere. I would like to be a lawyer, but don't want to be one so badly that I would risk being very poor.

My gf lives in an $1100 apt. in bay ridge. It is a large 1 bed room and quite nice actually.

Btw, you're assuming what everyone else on this site does, that you start out making 50k a year and never get a raise. That's absurd. Yea your interest accrues but 7 years later if you are still making 50k a year then you either suck at life or suck at lawyering or both.

[d cooper]

Bumping this.

Started studying again, and was not satisfied with my progress and decided that I'd just go to Cardozo and try to be in the top 10% and if not drop out.

You can't better your poor LSAT score, so you'll default to your backup plan of just being top 10%?

[Unicorn1]

Bumping this.

Started studying again, and was not satisfied with my progress and decided that I'd just go to Cardozo and try to be in the top 10% and if not drop out.

You can't better your poor LSAT score, so you'll default to your backup plan of just being top 10%?

Correct. That is not to say I will be, just that I'm comfortable dropping out if I am not. My poor LSAT score is still way above avg for most Cardozo students.

[Unicorn1]

What I really want to know though is how much money I need from Fordham to make it a better option.

[shifty_eyed]

Bumping this.

Started studying again, and was not satisfied with my progress and decided that I'd just go to Cardozo and try to be in the top 10% and if not drop out.

That's like if I said I wanted to become a poker player, so I'm just gonna borrow 10k to play in the main event, and if i don't make the money, oh well.

When I could instead try to practice playing in smaller poker tournaments and then get backers etc to minimize the risk.

IDK if that helps put it in perspective how dumb this line of thinking is.

[Unicorn1]

Bumping this.

Started studying again, and was not satisfied with my progress and decided that I'd just go to Cardozo and try to be in the top 10% and if not drop out.

That's like if I said I wanted to become a poker player, so I'm just gonna borrow 10k to play in the main event, and if i don't make the money, oh well.

When I could instead try to practice playing in smaller poker tournaments and then get backers etc to minimize the risk.

IDK if that helps put it in perspective how dumb this line of thinking is.

The difference is, lots of non 170 LSAT scorers do well in law school and are terrific lawyers.

[03152016]

Btw, you're assuming what everyone else on this site does, that you start out making 50k a year and never get a raise. That's absurd. Yea your interest accrues but 7 years later if you are still making 50k a year then you either suck at life or suck at lawyering or both.

I factored in yearly raises into the debt figures. And you pay more on the debt as you earn more, that's the nature of the program.

But since you clearly know better than everyone else, go ahead with this plan of yours and prove us wrong. Surely you have more insight into the legal job market than the hundreds of JDs posting in the Vale who would tell you how stupid six figure debt for a second-tier school is.

Just let us know how you do in a couple of years. I want to know how this ingenious scheme of yours to plunge headfirst into $121k+ of debt to attend a rapidly declining second-tier law school in an oversaturated market with middling employment numbers works out.

[03152016]

What I really want to know though is how much money I need from Fordham to make it a better option.

If someone really really wanted to go to Fordham, I'd guess than $60k total COA would be safe. Assuming you have a good outcome, that's about a year's salary. Just hustle; don't become part of the 37% of the class that can't find stable employment, or one of the lucky one out of seven temping for the school to increase their job numbers.

[WokeUpInACar]

Bumping this.

Started studying again, and was not satisfied with my progress and decided that I'd just go to Cardozo and try to be in the top 10% and if not drop out.

That's like if I said I wanted to become a poker player, so I'm just gonna borrow 10k to play in the main event, and if i don't make the money, oh well.

When I could instead try to practice playing in smaller poker tournaments and then get backers etc to minimize the risk.

IDK if that helps put it in perspective how dumb this line of thinking is.

The difference is, lots of non 170 LSAT scorers do well in law school and are terrific lawyers.

A lot of non-skilled poker players have won tournaments. Doesn't mean they all made a good bet.

[Unicorn1]

Btw, you're assuming what everyone else on this site does, that you start out making 50k a year and never get a raise. That's absurd. Yea your interest accrues but 7 years later if you are still making 50k a year then you either suck at life or suck at lawyering or both.

I factored in yearly raises into the debt figures. And you pay more on the debt as you earn more, that's the nature of the program.

But since you clearly know better than everyone else, go ahead with this plan of yours and prove us wrong. Surely you have more insight into the legal job market than the hundreds of JDs posting in the Vale who would tell you how stupid six figure debt for a second-tier school is.

Just let us know how you do in a couple of years. I want to know how this ingenious scheme of yours to plunge headfirst into $121k+ of debt to attend a rapidly declining second-tier law school in an oversaturated market with middling employment numbers works out.

I don't have a genius plan. I think going in knowing I will drop out if I am not at the top of the class shows that I am pretty level-headed in my expectations for the job market. Just trying to gauge Fordham vs. Cardozo

[WokeUpInACar]

Also you should basically disregard anyone who didn't graduate in the last five years because the game dun changed. They're basically like the people who beat pre-2007 Party Poker.

[Unicorn1]

Bumping this.

Started studying again, and was not satisfied with my progress and decided that I'd just go to Cardozo and try to be in the top 10% and if not drop out.

That's like if I said I wanted to become a poker player, so I'm just gonna borrow 10k to play in the main event, and if i don't make the money, oh well.

When I could instead try to practice playing in smaller poker tournaments and then get backers etc to minimize the risk.

IDK if that helps put it in perspective how dumb this line of thinking is.

The difference is, lots of non 170 LSAT scorers do well in law school and are terrific lawyers.

A lot of non-skilled poker players have won tournaments. Doesn't mean they all made a good bet.

Your analogy is ridiculous. If you practice poker, you get better at poker. If you practice the LSAT, you don't get better at law school. There might be a correlation between high LSAT scorers and successful law school students, but that is not relevant. Presumably if I am capable of getting a 170 then my potential to do well in law school is there whether I ever get that 170 or not.

[WokeUpInACar]

Doing well on the LSAT isn't beneficial because it helps you get better grades in law school. It's better because it makes your law school bet more economically reasonable and either gives you a better shot at a job or the same shot with lower debt.