What are the most/least competitive T14 and why? Forum

[TheSpanishMain]

Does anyone have that link to the chart that shows which T14's had graded LRWs and which are P/F?

[Gooner91]

Does anyone have that link to the chart that shows which T14's had graded LRWs and which are P/F?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=142463

Idk if this is outdated though.

[jbagelboy]

Does anyone have that link to the chart that shows which T14's had graded LRWs and which are P/F?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=142463

Idk if this is outdated though.

The LPW info seems current - the other stats should be updated for 2013 tho. Some changes in class size and order.

[LochnerMonster]

My guess is Yale.

Although I have heard that all the schools with a H/P grading system (H,Y,S,B) are much more laid back than schools with definitive letter grade curves and/or rankings. Not sure if that is true though.

The kind of strivers with the backgrounds for HYS don't stop striving once they get to law school just because they don't get grades. If your definition of competitiveness involves other people working hard, all law schools are competitive. This seems like a dumb definition to me.

(YLS 1L)

People at Yale work very hard. But in the first semester, they definitely spend less time than students at other law schools on their coursework, and more on their extra-curricular projects/interests. I think this definitely cuts down on "competition," what ever that means.

[Tiago Splitter]

My guess is Yale.

Although I have heard that all the schools with a H/P grading system (H,Y,S,B) are much more laid back than schools with definitive letter grade curves and/or rankings. Not sure if that is true though.

The kind of strivers with the backgrounds for HYS don't stop striving once they get to law school just because they don't get grades. If your definition of competitiveness involves other people working hard, all law schools are competitive. This seems like a dumb definition to me.

(YLS 1L)

People at Yale work very hard. But in the first semester, they definitely spend less time than students at other law schools on their coursework, and more on their extra-curricular projects/interests. I think this definitely cuts down on "competition," what ever that means.

And you base this on what?

[20141023]

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[ZVBXRPL]

Pretty much the same sort of people end up at each of the T14, so I don't think that you will have to try any harder at any given school to do better than you would at another school.

The real difference IMO is how the schools give out grades. I don't necessarily think that graded LRW makes a school any more or less "competitive" simply because the students will put more energy into outgunning each other in their other graded courses. Also, I don't know if this is common, but I know that my school doesn't use objective multiple-choice questions on exams (at least not that I know of for 1L classes); instead, they are all long essay-type questions that seem like they could be just as subjective as LRW.

Just to give an example of what I mean in regards to different grading systems affecting competitiveness, at UChicago, students are graded on a very precise spectrum of 155-186, and employers are able to differentiate (to the extent that they understand how our grading system even works) between the absolutely amazing students, somewhat amazing students, amazing students, above average students, slightly above average students, average students... you get the point. At other T14 schools, I don't think these differences stand out quite as much, and at H - and especially at YS - they stand out even less. UChicago's system is great if you are able to do well in law school and distinguish yourself, but it isn't so great if you aren't one of the people lucky enough to have that ability. I don't think this necessarily affects how much students gun to get good grades, but rather it affects their chances of being "competitive" when they go to apply for jobs.

Seems interesting. Can you elaborate on UoCs grading system. Do these scores get averaged post semester and then after every year? Do professors assign the scores?

[20141023]

.

[kapital98]

Cornell has A+, A, A-, B+, B, B-, C+, C, C-, D, F grading system.

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/regist ... licies.cfm

[NYU-14]

Any NYU students around to speak on this?

NYU is a school full of highly competitive people who are careful not to act competitive. It's very social, very inviting, and not at all like The Paper Chase. Despite the curve, we generally see our classmates as being on the same team. NYU students never ask about others' grades and rarely share their own. Most people find it off-putting to hear someone else's grades.

I've never heard anybody say they wish they'd gone to another law school because of NYU's culture. The opposite is the consensus.

Doesn't mean it's for everyone, but that's the answer to your question. Other places are good too.

[Neal Patrick Harris]

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[drawstring]

Does anyone know of LPs/restricted credits actually going out at Yale and Stanford? Am I correct in thinking that LPs are more common at Harvard than LPs/restricted credits are at YS, and that this along with the lack of DS equivalents is largely what accounts for the latter pair having what are generally seen as more 'relaxed' grading systems than HLS's?

[jbagelboy]

Does anyone know of LPs/restricted credits actually going out at Yale and Stanford? Am I correct in thinking that LPs are more common at Harvard than LPs/restricted credits are at YS, and that this along with the lack of DS equivalents is largely what accounts for the latter pair having what are generally seen as more 'relaxed' grading systems than HLS's?

I read HLS gives 8-10% LP. Im sure that is lower at YS. And yea DS is like an A.

[WheninLaw]

Having said that, UChicago's median is 176~177, and I don't really even know if the bottom portion of their scale gets used very often. (If there are any UChicago upperclassmen here, do you know how often someone gets a grade in the 150's? The 160's?) I think that only 5% of the class gets a 182 or higher (6 or more points over median) cumulative GPA during the first year, so if it is a symmetrical bell curve, I would hope that this means that less than 5% of the class gets a 170 or lower (6 or or more points less than median), but I don't think this is how it works and don't have any data about the distribution to explain what goes on below the 50th percentile.

The median is 177, but the real median is more like 177.3. And top 5%/top 10% very much depends. This year, top 5% was 180.5, and the LR grade-on was much lower than the year previous (due to a couple factors). I have never heard of anyone getting a grade in the 160s, and doubt it happens.

[bjsesq]

Douchiness varies from year to year, institution to institution. There is no solid answer to this.

[Pulsar]

The median is 177, but the real median is more like 177.3. And top 5%/top 10% very much depends. This year, top 5% was 180.5, and the LR grade-on was much lower than the year previous (due to a couple factors).

Are you able to elaborate on what those factors were and whether the lower cutoff is expected to be typical of future years?

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

Does anyone know of LPs/restricted credits actually going out at Yale and Stanford? Am I correct in thinking that LPs are more common at Harvard than LPs/restricted credits are at YS, and that this along with the lack of DS equivalents is largely what accounts for the latter pair having what are generally seen as more 'relaxed' grading systems than HLS's?

I read HLS gives 8-10% LP. Im sure that is lower at YS. And yea DS is like an A.

H used to include LP on the mandatory curve (8%) but no longer does. Consensus seems to be the number of LPs given out today is actually less, maybe 2-5%.

[giantsfan564789]

Can't find any full lists but these links could give you some idea.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.shared/imag ... s_2008.jpg


http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... eview.html


In one of the links, you can see links for other years. You can probably only get the full list by looking at an actual princeton review book.

[sublime]

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[californiauser]

Can't find any full lists but these links could give you some idea.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.shared/imag ... s_2008.jpg


http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... eview.html


In one of the links, you can see links for other years. You can probably only get the full list by looking at an actual princeton review book.

I don't get it. Why are TTT students so gung-ho about studying in law school when they could have put that same effort into studying the LSAT and gone to a better school?

[kapital98]

I don't get it. Why are TTT students so gung-ho about studying in law school when they could have put that same effort into studying the LSAT and gone to a better school?

Believe it or not, some people can't get 170+ on the LSAT (that's why only ~2% of people do). Even if they could, they're not going to take the LSAT 3+ times to get a coveted 170. There is a considerable degree of uncertainty to bank on your time spent studying translating into a 170+.

This is on par with: "I don't understand why people don't just get a 3.9 GPA and go to a T14?"

(I don't usually hang around these threads. Forgive me if I just baited a troll. I'm taking it you're serious?)

[Gooner91]

A bit off topic but...
Why does Mich. use an E instead of F?

[sublime]

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[kapital98]

He isn't a troll.

I think what he meant was that studying for a better LSAT score is more realistic than going to a TTT and saying that you will get top 10%.

That's true. I just think a lot of people with high LSAT scores kind of look down on people with low LSAT scores. They think that everyone can do it (which is kind of true, with a *ton* of effort and some good luck).

I did a retake and went from T2 material to T1 material. However, anything short of 170 and I wasn't getting into a T14. There was no way I was going to go through the mental anguish of taking the LSAT a third time. In the end, I was fortunate to be near the top of my class and transfer into the T14 (one of the lucky ones, wouldn't recommend it).

Whatever. This has been debated endlessly before. I'm out.

[ScottRiqui]

A bit off topic but...
Why does Mich. use an E instead of F?

Michigan (the state, not just the school) was one of the first to start using "E" instead of "F", fifty years ago or so. A lot of American secondary schools use "E" now.

The real question is why 'E' was skipped in the first place in favor of "F". I think some primary schools still used the "ESNU" scale (Excellent, Satisfactory, Needs Improvement and Unsatisfactory), and didn't want the confusion of having the same letter denote both top grades and failing grades, depending on which school was doing the grading.