GMU vs. UIUC vs. UC Davis vs. Case Western Forum

[rickgrimes69]

Taking out $125k to attend GMU is a bad idea, Mono. You've got a coin flip chance at finding any lawyer job, and maybe a 10-15% chance of finding a job that will service that debt load. The rest of those students are irrevocably fucked. Just because OP might not have any other career options doesn't mean he should make an objectively stupid career choice. I'd rather be unemployed/flipping burgers then unemployed/flipping burgers while drowning in six figures of debt.

[ivonmx]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies and I didn't expect my post will start a discussion/debate of whether or not to go to law school. I want to clarify that I actually hold a M.S. in computer science degree and I am working in a software company (not Microsoft, lol) as a software engineer, so it is a no brainer that I should not go to law school because of all the seemingly high opportunity cost ($200k debt + $200k salary).

@Monochromatic, I don't have good GPA so UVA is unrealistic for me. I did apply to W&M though but was waitlisted (they actually have more applicants this year and the pool is filled up very quickly). And hey, I've been thinking about law school since 16 too but I thought it's good to have some skills to at least feed myself. Picked computer science because, as you may know, it's the best ROI major you can invest as an international student.

@jbagelboy, your words are harsh but I do appreciate your sharing your opinion here. You mentioned that you would not go to law school unless you know that's going to open a new field for you, right? Well, that's exactly my situation here with a little twist. I know law school is going to be much fun than my bi-monthly-paycheck-just-to-keep-me-working-my-ass-off job, and I know that $200K is going to be a burden after my graduation. So I am really weighing between the debt and the new career, and it's not just a financial choice.

@Suralin, as a coder myself, I'd say IT industry isn't as glamorous as it seems to be. Yes, folks do get paid a fair salary with a bachelor degree if he/she opts to code, but they cannot do that for 30 years. I think most people will go to get an advanced degree (master or mba) to climb the corp ladder. And that will make the comparison between JD and other degrees even harder. I just want to say that I agree with you that we should be cautious about judging The Value of Law School.


Sorry it took me some time to write up this reply. I am really thankful for everyone's replies and votes here. At least, after 30+ replies, I am able to cross some schools off my list

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I want to clarify that I actually hold a M.S. in computer science degree and I am working in a software company (not Microsoft, lol) as a software engineer, so it is a no brainer that I should not go to law school because of all the seemingly high opportunity cost ($200k debt + $200k salary).

Most lawyers go to law school to get a good job. You already have a good job. Don't go to law school (unless you go to a T14 school with money).

I know law school is going to be much fun than my bi-monthly-paycheck-just-to-keep-me-working-my-ass-off job

I don't know what you think law school/being a lawyer entails, but before you are rudely surprised, definitely don't go to law school.

[jbagelboy]

@jbagelboy, your words are harsh but I do appreciate your sharing your opinion here. You mentioned that you would not go to law school unless you know that's going to open a new field for you, right? Well, that's exactly my situation here with a little twist. I know law school is going to be much fun than my bi-monthly-paycheck-just-to-keep-me-working-my-ass-off job, and I know that $200K is going to be a burden after my graduation. So I am really weighing between the debt and the new career, and it's not just a financial choice.

Apologies if I was "harsh" -- didn't I just say don't go to Davis? Lol. I suppose I responded to Mono's comments but that wasn't directly intended towards you. I think my original response on page one is still credited (go back and look for it if you want).

As for the above, yes, I would not attend law school if it didn't provide new opportunities. I don't think anyone would. However, I am also not entering law school under the impression that it will be at all "fun" (see your bolded). All my friends who have gone through 1L year say it is absolutely horrible, from UMN to Cal to Harvard. You are severely misguided if you believe any part of what you are about to experience is fun, exciting, intellectually stimulating, ect. At whatever law school you go to, you will have a section with 50-100 arrogant self-important mal-adjusted uber-competitive 20-somethings, memorizing the black letter law and commercial outlines for Contracts, Torts, Civil Procedure, ect., basically the most boring pedantic shit that has little to do with actual legal practice. This is a professional investment. People going for the "experience" are LITERALLY the biggest trolls. Know this when you are going into it, like truly, know it and understand it and that it will be worse than almost anything you are doing now.

There are rewarding, productive & lucrative careers for attorneys out there, which is why I'm going to law school. If it's not providing that new career, then there's no point. It sounds like you already have a good career -- there are so many more jobs in CS right now than law, much better paid and in higher demand -- but if you want to change your life than YOLO, I'd just refer to my earlier response if you won't retake that 162.

[suralin]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies and I didn't expect my post will start a discussion/debate of whether or not to go to law school. I want to clarify that I actually hold a M.S. in computer science degree and I am working in a software company (not Microsoft, lol) as a software engineer, so it is a no brainer that I should not go to law school because of all the seemingly high opportunity cost ($200k debt + $200k salary).

@Monochromatic, I don't have good GPA so UVA is unrealistic for me. I did apply to W&M though but was waitlisted (they actually have more applicants this year and the pool is filled up very quickly). And hey, I've been thinking about law school since 16 too but I thought it's good to have some skills to at least feed myself. Picked computer science because, as you may know, it's the best ROI major you can invest as an international student.

@jbagelboy, your words are harsh but I do appreciate your sharing your opinion here. You mentioned that you would not go to law school unless you know that's going to open a new field for you, right? Well, that's exactly my situation here with a little twist. I know law school is going to be much fun than my bi-monthly-paycheck-just-to-keep-me-working-my-ass-off job, and I know that $200K is going to be a burden after my graduation. So I am really weighing between the debt and the new career, and it's not just a financial choice.

@Suralin, as a coder myself, I'd say IT industry isn't as glamorous as it seems to be. Yes, folks do get paid a fair salary with a bachelor degree if he/she opts to code, but they cannot do that for 30 years. I think most people will go to get an advanced degree (master or mba) to climb the corp ladder. And that will make the comparison between JD and other degrees even harder. I just want to say that I agree with you that we should be cautious about judging the value of law school.


Sorry it took me some time to write up this reply. I am really thankful for everyone's replies and votes here. At least, after 30+ replies, I am able to cross some schools off my list

Ah, well if you have a Master's in CS, then that really is a large opportunity cost. I do sympathize though, I'm a CS major and have been having a hard time with deciding what to do post-grad. And yes, there definitely seems to be implicit age-ism/a low-ish salary ceiling in the IT/tech world. You really have to love learning new technologies to keep up with the young'uns, especially at the rate new tech/frameworks/etc. are adopted nowadays (or you could switch to management, but lots of CS people don't find that appealing).

The good thing is that as a coder, you're very attractive to firms for IP/patent reasons (the so-called IPSECURE-ness), so I would recommend you look into whether you're eligible for taking the patent bar, etc.

[Volake]

As for the above, yes, I would not attend law school if it didn't provide new opportunities. I don't think anyone would. However, I am also not entering law school under the impression that it will be at all "fun" (see your bolded). All my friends who have gone through 1L year say it is absolutely horrible, from UMN to Cal to Harvard. You are severely misguided if you believe any part of what you are about to experience is fun, exciting, intellectually stimulating, ect. At whatever law school you go to, you will have a section with 50-100 arrogant self-important mal-adjusted uber-competitive 20-somethings, memorizing the black letter law and commercial outlines for Contracts, Torts, Civil Procedure, ect., basically the most boring pedantic shit that has little to do with actual legal practice. This is a professional investment. People going for the "experience" are LITERALLY the biggest trolls. Know this when you are going into it, like truly, know it and understand it and that it will be worse than almost anything you are doing now.

I obviously can't speak for your or your friends' experiences of law school, but my 1L UIUC experience was very intellectually stimulating, exciting, satisfying, and, yes, a lot of fun. I don't know why you think learning the policies advanced and principles underlying the different areas of the law is "pedantic." It's quite different: pedantry would be slavish adherence to rules beyond the contexts in which they are appropriate. In classes, you're often encouraged to determine what rules best achieve principles in different contexts. Many of my law school friends also have really enjoyed their experiences in law school. This will be a hellish experience if you don't like what you're doing, because it will absorb just about all of your time. But if you enjoy learning about the law, which I did, you may very well love law school

That being said, I agree with you in saying that this is primarily an investment in our future. I'm not putting myself in six-figure debt so that I can have an extended intellectual vacation. But the contention that law school, at least your 1L year, cannot be a great time of your life, is simply not true.

[jbagelboy]

As for the above, yes, I would not attend law school if it didn't provide new opportunities. I don't think anyone would. However, I am also not entering law school under the impression that it will be at all "fun" (see your bolded). All my friends who have gone through 1L year say it is absolutely horrible, from UMN to Cal to Harvard. You are severely misguided if you believe any part of what you are about to experience is fun, exciting, intellectually stimulating, ect. At whatever law school you go to, you will have a section with 50-100 arrogant self-important mal-adjusted uber-competitive 20-somethings, memorizing the black letter law and commercial outlines for Contracts, Torts, Civil Procedure, ect., basically the most boring pedantic shit that has little to do with actual legal practice. This is a professional investment. People going for the "experience" are LITERALLY the biggest trolls. Know this when you are going into it, like truly, know it and understand it and that it will be worse than almost anything you are doing now.

I obviously can't speak for your or your friends' experiences of law school, but my 1L UIUC experience was very intellectually stimulating, exciting, satisfying, and, yes, a lot of fun. I don't know why you think learning the policies advanced and principles underlying the different areas of the law is "pedantic." It's quite different: pedantry would be slavish adherence to rules beyond the contexts in which they are appropriate. In classes, you're often encouraged to determine what rules best achieve principles in different contexts. Many of my law school friends also have really enjoyed their experiences in law school. This will be a hellish experience if you don't like what you're doing, because it will absorb just about all of your time. But if you enjoy learning about the law, which I did, you may very well love law school

That being said, I agree with you in saying that this is primarily an investment in our future. I'm not putting myself in six-figure debt so that I can have an extended intellectual vacation. But the contention that law school, at least your 1L year, cannot be a great time of your life, is simply not true.

Well now we're just dueling anecdotes. I bet I have one for each of yours and vice versa. I have a close friend who dropped out of law school after 1L because he'd gone in thinking it would be something totally different, and several others were close to doing so.

I'm not contending one cannot enjoy 1L. It's just not a healthy perspective when quitting your job on the assumption that "law school will be so much funner then what I'm doing right now". Many are sorely disappointed. I'm truly glad to hear that you are having a nice experience -- I WANT to have a great time too, obviously, I'm no misanthrope -- and if you expect the worst and it turns out easier or more enjoyable, then all the better for you.

As for the bolded, I knew exactly what I was saying. Obv different profs have different approaches, but much of what you are memorizing and adapting to fits the description above.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Suggesting that you had a fun experience in 1L (rendering that notion not impossible) belies the fact that overwhelmingly students do not report their 1L year as a great time, and an incoming student should (statistically) expect he/she is not going to have a ton of fun.

[BigZuck]

FWIW I plan on being too drunk 1L year to NOT have a good time

[jbagelboy]

FWIW I plan on being too drunk 1L year to NOT have a good time

we're going to lawl school FOR TEH LAWLZ, obviously

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

FWIW I plan on being too drunk 1L year to NOT have a good time

Split infinitives? Must be hammered already. I'm gunning way too hard to let THE DEVIL'S POISON! get in the way of my 14th and 15th daily hour of hornbook reading. While you're out "making friends" and "engaging in normal social behavior", I'll be too busy working on my list of 1L questions that can turn any topic into a discussion of my life experiences.

[BigZuck]

FWIW I plan on being too drunk 1L year to NOT have a good time

Split infinitives? Must be hammered already. I'm gunning way too hard to let THE DEVIL'S POISON! get in the way of my 14th and 15th daily hour of hornbook reading. While you're out "making friends" and "engaging in normal social behavior", I'll be too busy working on my list of 1L questions that can turn any topic into a discussion of my life experiences.

I don't know what a split infinitive is Mr. Smarty McFarty. And I'm not going to bother to Google it either. Thanks for making me look and feel stupider and lazier than I already am. Not digging your Oeurve breh.

Also, don't need to be social to get hammered my bro.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I don't know what a split infinitive is Mr. Smarty McFarty

I hear splitting an infinitive gets your resume immediately trashed at Wachtell

[Micdiddy]

FWIW I plan on being too drunk 1L year to NOT have a good time

Split infinitives? Must be hammered already. I'm gunning way too hard to let THE DEVIL'S POISON! get in the way of my 14th and 15th daily hour of hornbook reading. While you're out "making friends" and "engaging in normal social behavior", I'll be too busy working on my list of 1L questions that can turn any topic into a discussion of my life experiences.

To briefly intervene here: For one to brashly split an infinitive, though to thoughtlessly do so may be considered uncouth, is not grammatically incorrect.
Though to reluctantly admit that one doesn't even know what that means is, to kindly put it, unfortunate.

Time for me to boldly go where no man has gone before.

[shifty_eyed]

FWIW I plan on being too drunk 1L year to NOT have a good time

Split infinitives? Must be hammered already. I'm gunning way too hard to let THE DEVIL'S POISON! get in the way of my 14th and 15th daily hour of hornbook reading. While you're out "making friends" and "engaging in normal social behavior", I'll be too busy working on my list of 1L questions that can turn any topic into a discussion of my life experiences.

To briefly intervene here: For one to brashly split an infinitive, though to thoughtlessly do so may be considered uncouth, is not grammatically incorrect.
Though to reluctantly admit that one doesn't even know what that means is, to kindly put it, unfortunate.

Time for me to boldly go where no man has gone before.

English major humor

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

FWIW I plan on being too drunk 1L year to NOT have a good time

Split infinitives? Must be hammered already. I'm gunning way too hard to let THE DEVIL'S POISON! get in the way of my 14th and 15th daily hour of hornbook reading. While you're out "making friends" and "engaging in normal social behavior", I'll be too busy working on my list of 1L questions that can turn any topic into a discussion of my life experiences.

To briefly intervene here: For one to brashly split an infinitive, though to thoughtlessly do so may be considered uncouth, is not grammatically incorrect.
Though to reluctantly admit that one doesn't even know what that means is, to kindly put it, unfortunate.

Time for me to boldly go where no man has gone before.

177

[Volake]

Suggesting that you had a fun experience in 1L (rendering that notion not impossible) belies the fact that overwhelmingly students do not report their 1L year as a great time, and an incoming student should (statistically) expect he/she is not going to have a ton of fun.

I realize that one instance of a student enjoying 1L year does not mean that it's reasonable for a prospective 1L to believe that he or she will enjoy his or her 1L year. It's just that JBagelBoy's account of it seemed to indicate that your first year is almost certainly a hellish experience when he said:

You are severely misguided if you believe any part of what you are about to experience is fun, exciting, intellectually stimulating, ect.

Many would say that, on balance, they did not like their 1L experience, or even that it was very bad. But I doubt that there weren't some times within the year of misery that were positive. I realize that JBagelBoy maybe have been exaggerating a bit at that point, I just felt because my experience clashed quite considerably with his characterization, I should show a different perspective.

When I was a 0L browsing this site, the posts here made me wonder whether my optimism regarding law school was misplaced. I really enjoyed reading to see different perspectives, looking at the logical implications of collections of propositions, thinking about philosophy, and engaging myself intellectually generally. This site, though extremely informative in many ways, caused an unsubstantiated doubt that these proclivities would translate to an enjoyable law school experience. I thought it would be a good time to brazenly present my perspective to someone with my same optimism about law school: some people do enjoy law school, even quite considerably.

[jbagelboy]

Suggesting that you had a fun experience in 1L (rendering that notion not impossible) belies the fact that overwhelmingly students do not report their 1L year as a great time, and an incoming student should (statistically) expect he/she is not going to have a ton of fun.

I realize that one instance of a student enjoying 1L year does not mean that it's reasonable for a prospective 1L to believe that he or she will enjoy his or her 1L year. It's just that JBagelBoy's account of it seemed to indicate that your first year is almost certainly a hellish experience when he said:

You are severely misguided if you believe any part of what you are about to experience is fun, exciting, intellectually stimulating, ect.

Many would say that, on balance, they did not like their 1L experience, or even that it was very bad. But I doubt that there weren't some times within the year of misery that were positive. I realize that JBagelBoy maybe have been exaggerating a bit at that point, I just felt because my experience clashed quite considerably with his characterization, I should show a different perspective.

When I was a 0L browsing this site, the posts here made me wonder whether my optimism regarding law school was misplaced. I really enjoyed reading to see different perspectives, looking at the logical implications of collections of propositions, thinking about philosophy, and engaging myself intellectually generally. This site, though extremely informative in many ways, caused an unsubstantiated doubt that these proclivities would translate to an enjoyable law school experience. I thought it would be a good time to brazenly present my perspective to someone with my same optimism about law school: some people do enjoy law school, even quite considerably.

Yes, to be fair I was exaggerating, and you were right to point to that quoted phrase I should have made a conditional rather than a declarative. My main poin is simply, dont go to law school because you think it will be funner than your life now: that is not its purpose and you could be disappointed. My vitriol above is only reflective of some of the experience. But these are trivial distinctions.