Sticker at Suffolk Law or 18 grand to New York Law? Forum

[timbs4339]

There are no normal people at these schools. Normal people know their shortcomings, and take rational bets. For all the flaws you might say people at top law schools have, imagine those without the analytical or logic skills that they also have. These are these schools. NYLS is conveniently located next to a salvation army so you will have your interview clothing close by.

Actually it's quite the opposite. Might want read some psychology from the last 40 years, starting with Kahneman and Tversky. Or you can go through life thinking we're living in an Econ 101 class

We might interpret normal differently. I meant what the ideal is, as measured by what facilitates the best results for people, not what most people are. Although special snowflake syndrome might accompany most people in their early 20s, I think this refusal to analyze objective data is an epidemic. I'm aware that depressed people are more likely to consider actual evidence, and not openly expect they're the special exception. However, these people are likely just special snowflakes who are depressed, and once their depression goes away would be just as dumb. There are a minority of rational people. They tend to be either at top law schools, or don't go to law schools.

But OP's comment rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed to imply that if you don't agree with their very weak decision, and that despite the data people who are against going to TTTT's are not "normal". This implies defining normal as agreeing with OP's weak decision making. The thought process one needs to take this approach is just so out of touch with reality it is shocking. I do not understand how one can know that only 50% of grads will ever work as lawyers, that ~90% from top schools will work as lawyers yet think going to a TTTT will work out just fine. I also don't understand why going to law school is a "treat" or something someone just has to do.

You're talking about the "reasonable man" type definition that we use in the law, which is really a fiction that is designed to make resolving claims easier.

Depressed people would actually be more likely to consider the data, or to interpret it as "I'll be in that group who doesn't get a job". "Optimism bias" is one of the cliches I see on this site all the time.

People also have a startling capacity for self-delusion, as evidenced by the folks who come on here and lie about maxing retakes, having no debt, or have jobs lined up. It's like asking about whether to buy a car that blows up when you start it, but just assume the car won't blow up.

[romothesavior]

From the post history he clearly does not have a family with a firm - would have mentioned it in his 20 other threads, but he's deadset on going to law school. Likely, this is OP's psychology:

1.) No real world experience.
2.) Felt pretty comfortable and happy in college.
3.) Realized he was graduating, was afraid of the stigma of moving in with his parents and was petrified of the real world.
4.) Figured law school is easy to get into for anyone with a pulse.
5.) Quickly decided to take the LSAT on a whim.
6.) Didn't study that hard, and just took it.
7.) Didn't want to spend much $ or time because all he needed was to postpone real life.... didn't have a life plan in place.
8.) Realized it was sufficient to postpone the real world for a # of years and go to a TTTT.
9.) Doesn't want people to tell him about the long term odds or consequences, because he only wants to focus on the 3 years.

What's a shame is that OP is probably a nice guy, but just a kid. By the time OP matures he's going to be 200k in the hole for a sub-5% chance at a good outcome.

This is probably all true, and its really sad.

[bananapeanutbutter]

There are no normal people at these schools. Normal people know their shortcomings, and take rational bets. For all the flaws you might say people at top law schools have, imagine those without the analytical or logic skills that they also have. These are these schools. NYLS is conveniently located next to a salvation army so you will have your interview clothing close by.

Actually it's quite the opposite. Might want read some psychology from the last 40 years, starting with Kahneman and Tversky. Or you can go through life thinking we're living in an Econ 101 class

We might interpret normal differently. I meant what the ideal is, as measured by what facilitates the best results for people, not what most people are. Although special snowflake syndrome might accompany most people in their early 20s, I think this refusal to analyze objective data is an epidemic. I'm aware that depressed people are more likely to consider actual evidence, and not openly expect they're the special exception. However, these people are likely just special snowflakes who are depressed, and once their depression goes away would be just as dumb. There are a minority of rational people. They tend to be either at top law schools, or don't go to law schools.

But OP's comment rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed to imply that if you don't agree with their very weak decision, and that despite the data people who are against going to TTTT's are not "normal". This implies defining normal as agreeing with OP's weak decision making. The thought process one needs to take this approach is just so out of touch with reality it is shocking. I do not understand how one can know that only 50% of grads will ever work as lawyers, that ~90% from top schools will work as lawyers yet think going to a TTTT will work out just fine. I also don't understand why going to law school is a "treat" or something someone just has to do.

You're talking about the "reasonable man" type definition that we use in the law, which is really a fiction that is designed to make resolving claims easier.

Depressed people would actually be more likely to consider the data, or to interpret it as "I'll be in that group who doesn't get a job". "Optimism bias" is one of the cliches I see on this site all the time.

People also have a startling capacity for self-delusion, as evidenced by the folks who come on here and lie about maxing retakes, having no debt, or have jobs lined up. It's like asking about whether to buy a car that blows up when you start it, but just assume the car won't blow up.

I think most people are reasonable. People like OP are children. The older people at these TTTT's generally aren't aware. It's really ridiculous to completely shelter children, pamper them throughout school for years and then treat them as legal citizens at 21-22, and allow them to just take out 200k in loans.

[lukertin]

From the post history he clearly does not have a family with a firm - would have mentioned it in his 20 other threads, but he's deadset on going to law school.

I call BS.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p5711402

Here he drops that his family members are alums of NYLS. The only question is what those firms do exactly. My money is on something like traffic court.

[helix23]

been had firms

[Meepo]

From the post history he clearly does not have a family with a firm - would have mentioned it in his 20 other threads, but he's deadset on going to law school.

I call BS.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p5711402

Here he drops that his family members are alums of NYLS. The only question is what those firms do exactly. My money is on something like traffic court.

honestly, you guys are so harsh... really no need to be like that

[TaipeiMort]

From the post history he clearly does not have a family with a firm - would have mentioned it in his 20 other threads, but he's deadset on going to law school.

I call BS.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p5711402

Here he drops that his family members are alums of NYLS. The only question is what those firms do exactly. My money is on something like traffic court.

honestly, you guys are so harsh... really no need to be like that

Harsh? It is great that they are harsh. The OP is going to get screwed. He will be in 200k of debt with no possibility to pay it off.

[bananapeanutbutter]

Well, there's a big difference between knowing lawyers, and getting jobs from them. Even partners at top firms don't really have the power to give you a job. With other lawyers not in big law, my experience has been since entering law school - they ask me for stuff (can you look at this....), which is obviously illegal. If it's not big law or government work, it tends to be shady and these people aren't giving out anything. Fortunately, I'm not a bar member yet and don't have a duty to report.

[bananapeanutbutter]

From the post history he clearly does not have a family with a firm - would have mentioned it in his 20 other threads, but he's deadset on going to law school.

I call BS.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p5711402

Here he drops that his family members are alums of NYLS. The only question is what those firms do exactly. My money is on something like traffic court.

honestly, you guys are so harsh... really no need to be like that

Harsh? It is great that they are harsh. The OP is going to get screwed. He will be in 200k of debt with no possibility to pay it off.

Didn't you hear? His dad has more law firms than Kobe has champion rings. Sometimes he starts a new firm just because he feels like it. His 2nd grade sister already has a top-20 criminal defense firm. You never heard of Diaper Defense Lawyers LLC???? Between the 62 law firms in his immediate family, it is fine.

[Meepo]

if OP says his family has firms, even if you doubt it, there's really no need to make fun on the possible practices of his family

[NoodleyOne]

if OP says his family has firms, even if you doubt it, there's really no need to make fun on the possible practices of his family

[Icculus]

if OP says his family has firms, even if you doubt it, there's really no need to make fun on the possible practices of his family

Thanks for that.

[gaucholaw]

Dear TLS,
Little Lesson on Communication:
Obviously going to a TTT is going to be a bad choice 90% of the time. Sometimes, people post on here with that as their only option. Yes, suggesting a retake is best. Additionally, I also agree, that these people will invent "job lined up" etc. because they don't want to hear the general "retake" advice and want justification in making a bad decision. HOWEVER, cut the fuckin' elitism...... seriously LOL'ing someone's LSAT score?! It's fine to make an innocent comment or two on someone's grammar mistake, but saying that OP is "dumber than a bear" seriously? How miserable are all of you in your normal lives that you need to come here - in this elite club, (non-T-14 candidates need not even look) and berate and dehumanize this OP. Furthermore, even if OP is a flame, we all know REAL people with stories like this. Show some fuckin' compassion!

[Meepo]

Dear TLS,
Little Lesson on Communication:
Obviously going to a TTT is going to be a bad choice 90% of the time. Sometimes, people post on here with that as their only option. Yes, suggesting a retake is best. Additionally, I also agree, that these people will invent "job lined up" etc. because they don't want to hear the general "retake" advice and want justification in making a bad decision. HOWEVER, cut the fuckin' elitism...... seriously LOL'ing someone's LSAT score?! It's fine to make an innocent comment or two on someone's grammar mistake, but saying that OP is "dumber than a bear" seriously? How miserable are all of you in your normal lives that you need to come here - in this elite club, (non-T-14 candidates need not even look) and berate and dehumanize this OP. Furthermore, even if OP is a flame, we all know REAL people with stories like this. Show some fuckin' compassion!

TITCR

[jbagelboy]

Dear TLS,
Little Lesson on Communication:
Obviously going to a TTT is going to be a bad choice 90% of the time. Sometimes, people post on here with that as their only option. Yes, suggesting a retake is best. Additionally, I also agree, that these people will invent "job lined up" etc. because they don't want to hear the general "retake" advice and want justification in making a bad decision. HOWEVER, cut the fuckin' elitism...... seriously LOL'ing someone's LSAT score?! It's fine to make an innocent comment or two on someone's grammar mistake, but saying that OP is "dumber than a bear" seriously? How miserable are all of you in your normal lives that you need to come here - in this elite club, (non-T-14 candidates need not even look) and berate and dehumanize this OP. Furthermore, even if OP is a flame, we all know REAL people with stories like this. Show some fuckin' compassion!

TITCR

Lol sorry gaucho. The moment the ubertroll Meepo credited your response, your argument and sentiment was dead in the water.

Its not elitism. People who arent considering top law schools shouldnt go post on the website top law schools. The people here will give you advice that will allow you to access a top law school, since that is the implicit purpose of all activity here. Dont come here expecting pity or positive recognition for bad decision making.

There probably is actually a "regional law schools" site too. OP should go find it if he wants tttt advice. No offense.

[NoodleyOne]

Dear TLS,
Little Lesson on Communication:
Obviously going to a TTT is going to be a bad choice 90% of the time. Sometimes, people post on here with that as their only option. Yes, suggesting a retake is best. Additionally, I also agree, that these people will invent "job lined up" etc. because they don't want to hear the general "retake" advice and want justification in making a bad decision. HOWEVER, cut the fuckin' elitism...... seriously LOL'ing someone's LSAT score?! It's fine to make an innocent comment or two on someone's grammar mistake, but saying that OP is "dumber than a bear" seriously? How miserable are all of you in your normal lives that you need to come here - in this elite club, (non-T-14 candidates need not even look) and berate and dehumanize this OP. Furthermore, even if OP is a flame, we all know REAL people with stories like this. Show some fuckin' compassion!

Making fun of LSAT is low, but I think that came as a response to the OP. In general I've never seen that attitude before, but it's not one that I support. Calling the OP dumb? Eh, I'm okay with that.

Generally, you'll find that if people have a sure-fire job lined up after graduation, the advice will end up "Go somewhere for free, bro!" or "Make sure that's the job you want, if you want other options look at AB or C and have that as a safety net". There isn't much elitism here. There's a healthy dose of cynicism, sure, but that's because the job market is shit. In case you don't recall, only 56% of the class of 2012 are currently working as lawyers, and the vast majority of those lawyers are chasing ambulances. The T-14 or bust attitude isn't elitist, it's a sad reflection of the current market. This didn't come about because Michigan is so awesome and George Mason sucks, but rather because of both the type of job you're likely to get from each place, and your chances of getting a job period. There are certainly some prestige-whores around, but they're the minority.

And if you knowingly walk into 200k+ of debt knowing the probable outcomes from shitholes like Suffolk or American, you are dumber than a bear, and I have no fucking compassion. Transparency can only go so far, after a certain point (which I feel that we've largely reached), it's buyer beware.

[oldschool123]

Dear TLS,
Little Lesson on Communication:
Obviously going to a TTT is going to be a bad choice 90% of the time. Sometimes, people post on here with that as their only option. Yes, suggesting a retake is best. Additionally, I also agree, that these people will invent "job lined up" etc. because they don't want to hear the general "retake" advice and want justification in making a bad decision. HOWEVER, cut the fuckin' elitism...... seriously LOL'ing someone's LSAT score?! It's fine to make an innocent comment or two on someone's grammar mistake, but saying that OP is "dumber than a bear" seriously? How miserable are all of you in your normal lives that you need to come here - in this elite club, (non-T-14 candidates need not even look) and berate and dehumanize this OP. Furthermore, even if OP is a flame, we all know REAL people with stories like this. Show some fuckin' compassion!

For real. Way too many elitist assholes on this site who probably wouldn't have half as much balls in real life as you do sitting behind a computer screen.

[Meepo]

Dear TLS,
Little Lesson on Communication:
Obviously going to a TTT is going to be a bad choice 90% of the time. Sometimes, people post on here with that as their only option. Yes, suggesting a retake is best. Additionally, I also agree, that these people will invent "job lined up" etc. because they don't want to hear the general "retake" advice and want justification in making a bad decision. HOWEVER, cut the fuckin' elitism...... seriously LOL'ing someone's LSAT score?! It's fine to make an innocent comment or two on someone's grammar mistake, but saying that OP is "dumber than a bear" seriously? How miserable are all of you in your normal lives that you need to come here - in this elite club, (non-T-14 candidates need not even look) and berate and dehumanize this OP. Furthermore, even if OP is a flame, we all know REAL people with stories like this. Show some fuckin' compassion!

TITCR

Lol sorry gaucho. The moment the ubertroll Meepo credited your response, your argument and sentiment was dead in the water.

Its not elitism. People who arent considering top law schools shouldnt go post on the website top law schools. The people here will give you advice that will allow you to access a top law school, since that is the implicit purpose of all activity here. Dont come here expecting pity or positive recognition for bad decision making.

There probably is actually a "regional law schools" site too. OP should go find it if he wants tttt advice. No offense.

i don't really understand how you can discredit the previous poster by attacking my character, i don't see how you perceive me should affect how OP is treated, or mistreated in this thread

[Fussell]

I think it is again worth noting that this website is Top Law Schools, with the implication that it will be used by individuals looking to matriculate and succeed at Top Law Schools. The OP is a poor writer and is considering two very bad choices, he ought to be dissuaded and should consider retaking regardless of his assumed future prospects. I am unconvinced that his family "has" firms, unless he is a Rothschild and his English is poor because his first language is French, in which case he probably wouldn't be looking at either of those schools anyway.

[twenty]

protip: if you don't want people to say you're dumber than a bear, then don't be dumber than a bear.

while this is far from fool-proof, i'm certain even the most bear-like of fools will at least gain some advantage from it!

[dudley12]

I mean, sure, tuition at Suffolk is $44,000 per year but they do have the 5th best legal writing program. Also, first year students receive a complimentary tee shirt and a ticket for 50% off their first purchase at the campus liquor mart.

[Snowboarder1588]

Dear TLS,
Little Lesson on Communication:
Obviously going to a TTT is going to be a bad choice 90% of the time. Sometimes, people post on here with that as their only option. Yes, suggesting a retake is best. Additionally, I also agree, that these people will invent "job lined up" etc. because they don't want to hear the general "retake" advice and want justification in making a bad decision. HOWEVER, cut the fuckin' elitism...... seriously LOL'ing someone's LSAT score?! It's fine to make an innocent comment or two on someone's grammar mistake, but saying that OP is "dumber than a bear" seriously? How miserable are all of you in your normal lives that you need to come here - in this elite club, (non-T-14 candidates need not even look) and berate and dehumanize this OP. Furthermore, even if OP is a flame, we all know REAL people with stories like this. Show some fuckin' compassion!

+1 it is definitely a low blow to be cracking jokes about people's LSAT scores.

Also, if you refuse to consider a retake to get a shot at scholly money, why don't you consider UMA? Honestly, if your family has a job lined up and you are confident about that, and assuming your LSAT is above 150 but below 160, you will most likely be eligible for some decent scholly from them. It's a new school, they have temporary accreditation and likely to be fully accredited eventually. Just saying this will minimize your debt. If all you need is a JD (school rank/tier/job prospects are not an issue) then what difference does it make where you go? Take the cheapest option and get it over with.

[Micdiddy]

I mean, sure, tuition at Suffolk is $44,000 per year but they do have the 5th best legal writing program. Also, first year students receive a complimentary tee shirt and a ticket for 50% off their first purchase at the campus liquor mart.

Rookies. I'm going to Barry and getting dat IPad.

[cinephile]

Although I believe I said previously that both options are bad, I will say this -- Suffolk is in a great location. The building is absolutely gorgeous and it would be fabulous to be downtown for law school. I have no idea what NYLS is like in terms of location or facilities. But If I were going to throw away a couple hundred thousand dollars, at least I'd want to be somewhere nice.

[stillwater]

Although I believe I said previously that both options are bad, I will say this -- Suffolk is in a great location. The building is absolutely gorgeous and it would be fabulous to be downtown for law school. I have no idea what NYLS is like in terms of location or facilities. But If I were going to throw away a couple hundred thousand dollars, at least I'd want to be somewhere nice.

I took the LSAT at NYLS. Facilities weren't shabby. It's in Tribeca. Great location. If you were into lighting hundreds of thousands of dollars on fire, then it could be your place.