Class of 2012 Employment Data Forum

[20141023]

.

[SportsFan]

Edit: And just to give some other numbers so people don't have to click, 12 in business/industry (probably good outcomes because of the JD/MBA), 6 in government, and 10 in PI. 258/270 in bar passage required jobs.

Edit 2: 9 people in law school funded jobs (8 long term, 1 short term). 3.33%.

Yea I never really knew what to make of the business type jobs in the T14 (esp ones with good JD/MBA programs). Looking at the website, with 11/12 reporting, the 25/50/75 for their salaries are 100k/130k/140k (~145k mean. Not too shabby)

ETA: looks like the 12th person is probably in the Full time Short term employment category
ETA2: looks like 1 govt and 1 PI are long term part time.

Hadn't even thought to look at the salary breakdown to judge the business jobs, good catch. Looks like they're basically all good outcomes. I think the PI category is where they stuck the long term school funded jobs people. Not sure whether that says more about Penn students or PI hiring that there are 10 people doing PI, 8 of which are (likely, according to my logic) in school funded positions.

[table3]

I'm curious about categorizing sub-50 attorney firms as "underemployed."

Is that because, on average, a sub-50 attorney firm wouldn't provide a first-year associate with a salary large enough to service the debt load if he or she opted to pay sticker through loans? Is it because the long-term earning potential of someone starting off in a small firm is, on average, less? Is it because it's considered less prestigious than starting one's legal career at a larger firm?

With the exception of the first scenario, these strike me as somewhat flimsy. So, what am I missing?

To be clear, as a 0L, I'm looking for perspective, not an argument.

[banjo]

The "unemployment" numbers put an upper bound on the number of graduates with bad outcomes. They overestimate bad outcomes by design.

[02889]

Edit: And just to give some other numbers so people don't have to click, 12 in business/industry (probably good outcomes because of the JD/MBA), 6 in government, and 10 in PI. 258/270 in bar passage required jobs.

Edit 2: 9 people in law school funded jobs (8 long term, 1 short term). 3.33%.

Yea I never really knew what to make of the business type jobs in the T14 (esp ones with good JD/MBA programs). Looking at the website, with 11/12 reporting, the 25/50/75 for their salaries are 100k/130k/140k (~145k mean. Not too shabby)

ETA: looks like the 12th person is probably in the Full time Short term employment category
ETA2: looks like 1 govt and 1 PI are long term part time.

Hadn't even thought to look at the salary breakdown to judge the business jobs, good catch. Looks like they're basically all good outcomes. I think the PI category is where they stuck the long term school funded jobs people. Not sure whether that says more about Penn students or PI hiring that there are 10 people doing PI, 8 of which are (likely, according to my logic) in school funded positions.

Penn has several public interest fellowships which are established and look legitimate. I wouldn't be surprised if all 8 of the school-funded positions were these competitive fellowships.

https://www.law.upenn.edu/publicservice/fellowships.php

[Tiago Splitter]

I'm curious about categorizing sub-50 attorney firms as "underemployed."

Is that because, on average, a sub-50 attorney firm wouldn't provide a first-year associate with a salary large enough to service the debt load if he or she opted to pay sticker through loans? Is it because the long-term earning potential of someone starting off in a small firm is, on average, less? Is it because it's considered less prestigious than starting one's legal career at a larger firm?

With the exception of the first scenario, these strike me as somewhat flimsy. So, what am I missing?

To be clear, as a 0L, I'm looking for perspective, not an argument.

The first scenario is generally the reason. And the smaller the firm, the more likely it is to be an "eat what you kill" arrangement. That said, some people go to law school looking for small firm work, and others along the way find the overall package simply fits what they need (good enough pay, potentially decent hours, etc.) so these aren't all bad outcomes. But within the T-14 this isn't what people usually want and again it's largely because of the pay/debt ratio.

[Tiago Splitter]

2012 graduating class: 270
Employed: 265
Total for 2012 job type chart: 275

Penn's double counting somewhere.

I just added up the numbers from the ABA chart and it came to 270.

[SportsFan]

Edit: And just to give some other numbers so people don't have to click, 12 in business/industry (probably good outcomes because of the JD/MBA), 6 in government, and 10 in PI. 258/270 in bar passage required jobs.

Edit 2: 9 people in law school funded jobs (8 long term, 1 short term). 3.33%.

Yea I never really knew what to make of the business type jobs in the T14 (esp ones with good JD/MBA programs). Looking at the website, with 11/12 reporting, the 25/50/75 for their salaries are 100k/130k/140k (~145k mean. Not too shabby)

ETA: looks like the 12th person is probably in the Full time Short term employment category
ETA2: looks like 1 govt and 1 PI are long term part time.

Hadn't even thought to look at the salary breakdown to judge the business jobs, good catch. Looks like they're basically all good outcomes. I think the PI category is where they stuck the long term school funded jobs people. Not sure whether that says more about Penn students or PI hiring that there are 10 people doing PI, 8 of which are (likely, according to my logic) in school funded positions.

Penn has several public interest fellowships which are established and look legitimate. I wouldn't be surprised if all 8 of the school-funded positions were these competitive fellowships.

https://www.law.upenn.edu/publicservice/fellowships.php

Yeah, I came across that last night, and I imagine these are what the 8 people in the long school funded jobs are all doing. Looks like a good PI outcome is definitely a possibility, but there have been 33 people in these fellowships over the last 3 years, and they "only" list 11 peoples outcomes, so for all we know, the other 22 are all unemployed. But at least for PI focused people, these can lead to the possibility of employment.

[BigZuck]

popcorn.gif for UT and Duke's numbers, especially clerkship placement. Thanks for doing this Tiago.

[izy223]

why do we completely discount PI/Government jobs in these numbers? There needs to be a way to quantify DOJ v bad government job

[Bronck]

why do we completely discount PI/Government jobs in these numbers? There needs to be a way to quantify DOJ v bad government job

You just answered your own question. Because we can't distinguish between good and bad PI.

[Rahviveh]

why do we completely discount PI/Government jobs in these numbers? There needs to be a way to quantify DOJ v bad government job

You just answered your own question. Because we can't distinguish between good and bad PI.

And barely anyone is getting DOJ-type jobs anyways

[AllTheLawz]

More detailed HLS numbers for the last three years: http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/care ... -data.html

Of particular note, the breakdown for business jobs with 24 of 28 reporting was: $100k/$105k/$141k with an average of $117k and that is actually down substantially from the last two years. Business jobs look pretty solid.

[table3]

We should probably sticky this in the near future

+1, FWIW.

[WokeUpInACar]

University of Texas: 100/373 In firms of 100+, 31/373 in federal clerkships.

[BigZuck]

UT-26.8 and 8.3 according to ASW
Eta: scooped!

[TheThriller]

University of Texas: 100/373 In firms of 100+, 31/373 in federal clerkships.

UT doing well

[Rahviveh]

lol @ UCI getting the asterisk treatment in the OP.

good showing for UT

[Robespierre]

SMU/Dedman: 14.3% in 100+ firms, 3% in fedclerkships, total = 17.3%

http://www.law.smu.edu/Career-Services/ ... stics.aspx

They're also claiming 75% in full time, long term, bar required, up from 63.2% last year, can that be right?

[Tiago Splitter]

SMU/Dedman: 14.3% in 100+ firms, 3% in fedclerkships, total = 17.3%

http://www.law.smu.edu/Career-Services/ ... stics.aspx

They're also claiming 75% in full time, long term, bar required, up from 63.2% last year, can that be right?

That number does seem a little sketchy since it means a substantial portion of the 68 grads in business and industry jobs are in JD required positions.

[BigZuck]

Just noticed that Duke's is up on their website:

51.1 and 12.9 = 64

I like it

[Revolver066]

Just noticed that Duke's is up on their website:

51.1 and 12.9 = 64

I like it

i seem to be able to only see the class of 2011 data. Link?
ETA: nvm, got it

[BigZuck]

Just noticed that Duke's is up on their website:

51.1 and 12.9 = 64

I like it

i seem to be able to only see the class of 2011 data. Link?

--LinkRemoved--

Had to click on like 5 links before I got there. Impressive IMO. I mean, it's no Penn. But still very solid.

Still no one has any thoughts on what happened to NYU? All the clerkship eligible people opted to go straight into big law or PI? New clerkship coordinator? Just find it odd.

[whosonfirst]

Georgetown is up: http://law.georgetown.edu/admissions-fi ... -15-13.pdf

100+ firms: 196/626 = 39.1%
AIII clerkships: 23/626 = 3.7%

42.1% total and 83 school-funded positions (13.3%)

[Bronck]

ETA: SLS is up as well.

--LinkRemoved--

85/181 in firms 100+, 47%
51/181 in fed clerkships, 28.2%

Total of 75.2%