So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school? Forum

[hopingtogetin]

I think it is pretty silly that TLS has become so over the top negative that someone like you is considering not going. The options you'll have are going to be exponentially better than your current situation. Obviously you shouldn't attend if you don't want to be a lawyer, but I think not going to a t10 law school with $ or a t20 with $$$ just because of concerns about employment prospects, which, while not great, certainly aren't THAT bad, is kinda ridiculous when your curent situation sucks. Succeeding at anything is going to require some risks, and Sinfiery has noted the shortsightedness of many around here who overlook the relatively marginal value that your degree needs to add to make attending a good decision in the long run.

I was pretty much going to say the same think until I saw this. I think if you want to go to law school, and you really want to be a lawyer, and you're a pretty intelligent individual and have scholarship/some means of affording it without going like hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt, go for it! A huge number of my family and friends have gone to law school, and every single one of them (including one who went to a school that was not even in the top 100) were really pleased with their experiences and love their jobs. So go for it. The negativity of TLS is really insane sometimes. Most of us here haven't even gone to law school yet, so no matter how superior someone sounds, most people don't know shit. Only you can make the best choice for your life. Don't go to law school because you don't know what to do; go to law school because you want to be a lawyer. If you want to be a lawyer, go for it. Seriously.

[spleenworship]

Nevermind. I need to stay out of the on topic threads for my blood pressure.

[A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A]

I think it is pretty silly that TLS has become so over the top negative that someone like you is considering not going. The options you'll have are going to be exponentially better than your current situation. Obviously you shouldn't attend if you don't want to be a lawyer, but I think not going to a t10 law school with $ or a t20 with $$$ just because of concerns about employment prospects, which, while not great, certainly aren't THAT bad, is kinda ridiculous when your curent situation sucks. Succeeding at anything is going to require some risks, and Sinfiery has noted the shortsightedness of many around here who overlook the relatively marginal value that your degree needs to add to make attending a good decision in the long run.

I was pretty much going to say the same think until I saw this. I think if you want to go to law school, and you really want to be a lawyer, and you're a pretty intelligent individual and have scholarship/some means of affording it without going like hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt, go for it! A huge number of my family and friends have gone to law school, and every single one of them (including one who went to a school that was not even in the top 100) were really pleased with their experiences and love their jobs. So go for it. The negativity of TLS is really insane sometimes. Most of us here haven't even gone to law school yet, so no matter how superior someone sounds, most people don't know shit. Only you can make the best choice for your life. Don't go to law school because you don't know what to do; go to law school because you want to be a lawyer. If you want to be a lawyer, go for it. Seriously.

lol

[WokeUpInACar]

Okay, if y'all are done having a little group hug-in over here, allow me to 'splain:

I and several others in here are in law school. One of the posters telling you 0Ls not to go to law school is a PROFESSOR OF LAW at a LAW SCHOOL.

Y'all can tell yourselves this is a good idea all you want with all the caveats you want and whatever, but the fact is that for the vast majority of people reading this thread going to law school is an awful, no good, very bad decision. Most of them won't actually shadow or work for a lawyer and will convince themselves they want to be an attorney based off Law and Order re-runs or watching To Kill a Mockingbird or reading a Grisham novel. Then they'll tell themselves it is their dream to be a lawyer or whatnot but they won't want to study to take the LSAT a second time and end up with a marginal score and admitted with a 1/3 tuition scholly at some lower T1/upper T2 with terrible stips and they'll convince themselves they won't be in the bottom 66% and that they'll enjoy the practice of law even though the thought of having to get through another day of law school after they actually start will result in copious amounts of alcohol and adderol going into their systems... and then they'll end up unemployed and $150,000 in debt and suicidal.

I have seen it happen. Seriously. I have watched it happen to a friend and it breaks my heart.

So why don't y'all sit down and read this thread carefully and see what the 2Ls, 3Ls, and law professors are telling you instead of patting yourselves on the back for not having a bad effing attitude.

I don't disagree with most of this and think the majority of people going to law school these days are making poor decisions. However, when people without other good options are considering not attending LS despite $$ at a t6 school, it's clear that the pervasive negativity around here has gone too far. There will always be a need for *some* lawyers, and the ~800 people graduating from HYS every year won't quite cut it. It just so happens that the handful of hardcore pessimists here are far more vocal than anyone else, so we get get absurd (but justified based on the prevailing attitudes on TLS) questions like "should ANYONE go to law school ITE?"

[dixiecupdrinking]

Nevermind. I need to stay out of the on topic threads for my blood pressure.

FWIW I saw what you wrote before you edited and you were 100% right.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Okay, if y'all are done having a little group hug-in over here, allow me to 'splain:

I and several others in here are in law school. One of the posters telling you 0Ls not to go to law school is a PROFESSOR OF LAW at a LAW SCHOOL.

Y'all can tell yourselves this is a good idea all you want with all the caveats you want and whatever, but the fact is that for the vast majority of people reading this thread going to law school is an awful, no good, very bad decision. Most of them won't actually shadow or work for a lawyer and will convince themselves they want to be an attorney based off Law and Order re-runs or watching To Kill a Mockingbird or reading a Grisham novel. Then they'll tell themselves it is their dream to be a lawyer or whatnot but they won't want to study to take the LSAT a second time and end up with a marginal score and admitted with a 1/3 tuition scholly at some lower T1/upper T2 with terrible stips and they'll convince themselves they won't be in the bottom 66% and that they'll enjoy the practice of law even though the thought of having to get through another day of law school after they actually start will result in copious amounts of alcohol and adderol going into their systems... and then they'll end up unemployed and $150,000 in debt and suicidal.

I have seen it happen. Seriously. I have watched it happen to a friend and it breaks my heart.

So why don't y'all sit down and read this thread carefully and see what the 2Ls, 3Ls, and law professors are telling you instead of patting yourselves on the back for not having a bad effing attitude.

I don't disagree with most of this and think the majority of people going to law school these days are making poor decisions. However, when people without other good options are considering not attending LS despite $$ at a t6 school, it's clear that the pervasive negativity around here has gone too far. There will always be a need for *some* lawyers, and the ~800 people graduating from HYS every year won't quite cut it. It just so happens that the handful of hardcore pessimists here are far more vocal than anyone else, so we get get absurd (but justified based on the prevailing attitudes on TLS) questions like "should ANYONE go to law school ITE?"

There should be a pretty strong presumption against it being worth attending, even at a top school, even with money, for the average person. So many people still think being a lawyer is an impressive, prestigious thing, and are very reluctant to accept that it isn't worth it.

Many, if not most, people find law school to be a tedious, stressful, unnecessarily competitive grind. Many, if not most, of those people then graduate to find they won't have careers even approaching what they had hoped for and vaguely assumed would be available to them.

So just because someone has an option that is unlikely to ruin their life, that's only half the point. The other half is what's the upside? Law school under any circumstances is unlikely to .

And I'm speaking as a 3L who has had things break pretty well for me, only hated law school about 25% of the time, and is cautiously optimistic about my career. I got lucky, but I didn't know what I was getting into and if I had I probably would have made a different decision. The reality is I didn't want to know what I was getting into because then I would have had to find something else to do with my life, which sounded a lot harder than just going to one of the pretty good law schools I got into.

So I, and a lot of other people who post here, are mainly trying to get people to consider the things that we failed to consider. Law school is full of people who never thought much about why they were going to go to law school; know why? Most of the people who ask themselves that question don't go.

[rad lulz]

I recommend all the 0Ls who bitch about there being too much negativity think about why basically the only people bitching about how there's too much negativity are 0Ls.

[Gunnar Stahl]

I recommend all the 0Ls who bitch about there being too much negativity think about why basically the only people bitching about how there's too much negativity are 0Ls.

tls is probably one of the most pro-law school sites on the internet, too.

[NYstate]

I recommend all the 0Ls who bitch about there being too much negativity think about why basically the only people bitching about how there's too much negativity are 0Ls.

tls is probably one of the most pro-law school sites on the internet, too.

I didn't know that TLS was too negative when 50% of students don't even get jobs. And law school costs $300,000 or close to it, to attend.

If people don't want to listen, they won't. But maybe we can get some people to reevaluate their choices.

[WokeUpInACar]

I recommend all the 0Ls who bitch about there being too much negativity think about why basically the only people bitching about how there's too much negativity are 0Ls.

I mean obviously this is at least partially due to self selection.

[sinfiery]

I recommend all the 0Ls who bitch about there being too much negativity think about why basically the only people bitching about how there's too much negativity are 0Ls.

Because you assholes stand united and change the criteria to your personal cutoff so you never have to admit law school is worth going to.


Such as NYstate now mentioning 300k and a 50% chance at legal work at graduation when the actual question in OP is roughly 165k - 200k debt for a 70-80% chance at biglaw vs working a min wage job


Edit: this is a somewhat joking post and I should clarify lest I forget this is the internet

[spleenworship]

I recommend all the 0Ls who bitch about there being too much negativity think about why basically the only people bitching about how there's too much negativity are 0Ls.

Because you assholes stand united and change the criteria to your personal cutoff so you never have to admit law school is worth going to.


Such as NYstate now mentioning 300k and a 50% chance at legal work at graduation when the actual question in OP is roughly 165k - 200k debt for a 70-80% chance at biglaw vs working a min wage job


Edit: this is a somewhat joking post and I should clarify lest I forget this is the internet

It is obvious OP met my criteria and those of many others. We are responding to the cries of negativity.

[Ialdabaoth]

If it's alright (and just ignore me if it's not), I'd like to jump in here and see what people think about attending law school coming from my circumstances, which are significantly different than the OP's and than many of the situations discussed here.

First, most of the situations discussed here have involved people with no practical understanding of law, but I have been working as a paralegal at a midsize NYC firm since August and actually do enjoy the work for the most part. It's not the sub-area in which I would eventually like to practice (renewable energy finance), but it's in the general area (corporate finance).

Second, I DO, however, have a fairly well-paying job, instead of the OP's close to minimum wage position. However, obviously, paralegal jobs don't lead to great careers without a law degree. At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in renewable energy finance, so I could possible try to get an MBA instead of a law degree (but I kind of suck at math).

Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.

[Rahviveh]

If it's alright (and just ignore me if it's not), I'd like to jump in here and see what people think about attending law school coming from my circumstances, which are significantly different than the OP's and than many of the situations discussed here.

First, most of the situations discussed here have involved people with no practical understanding of law, but I have been working as a paralegal at a midsize NYC firm since August and actually do enjoy the work for the most part. It's not the sub-area in which I would eventually like to practice (renewable energy finance), but it's in the general area (corporate finance).

Second, I DO, however, have a fairly well-paying job, instead of the OP's close to minimum wage position. However, obviously, paralegal jobs don't lead to great careers without a law degree. At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in renewable energy finance, so I could possible try to get an MBA instead of a law degree (but I kind of suck at math).

Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.

Is a good MBA program even an option with paralegal work experience?

[bowser]

Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.

I hate to say this, but if you've only taken the test once re-taking is VERY practical. I understand you feel you over-performed or maybe even got a little lucky. But a 170/4.0 puts you in territory where you can actually feel financially comfortable about attending (getting upwards of 100K at a school, or maybe even a HYS acceptance), where as of now you're looking at a very small amount of $ or sticker at a couple of T-14 schools. I mean, if you really feel you have NO shot at getting 2 more points I guess you know yourself best, but there's so much on the line....

I don't know much about your interests. Berkeley is hard to predict, though; you may not get in for whatever reason, leaving you with not-so-great California options.

[spleenworship]

If it's alright (and just ignore me if it's not), I'd like to jump in here and see what people think about attending law school coming from my circumstances, which are significantly different than the OP's and than many of the situations discussed here.

First, most of the situations discussed here have involved people with no practical understanding of law, but I have been working as a paralegal at a midsize NYC firm since August and actually do enjoy the work for the most part. It's not the sub-area in which I would eventually like to practice (renewable energy finance), but it's in the general area (corporate finance).

Second, I DO, however, have a fairly well-paying job, instead of the OP's close to minimum wage position. However, obviously, paralegal jobs don't lead to great careers without a law degree. At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in renewable energy finance, so I could possible try to get an MBA instead of a law degree (but I kind of suck at math).

Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.

Assuming you aren't URM you have a good shot at places like NU and other good lower T14 with small schollys, as well as strong regionals with $$$. I'd go in your shoes. You know what you are getting into, you won't have to take on too massive of a debt, and you are reasonably likely to get a job.

Honestly though, you should prolly retake. A 170+ would make you upper T14 secure with $$

[Tiago Splitter]

Yeah this isn't the best thread to jump in and push the "I can't retake" nonsense.

[Cobretti]

If it's alright (and just ignore me if it's not), I'd like to jump in here and see what people think about attending law school coming from my circumstances, which are significantly different than the OP's and than many of the situations discussed here.

First, most of the situations discussed here have involved people with no practical understanding of law, but I have been working as a paralegal at a midsize NYC firm since August and actually do enjoy the work for the most part. It's not the sub-area in which I would eventually like to practice (renewable energy finance), but it's in the general area (corporate finance).

Second, I DO, however, have a fairly well-paying job, instead of the OP's close to minimum wage position. However, obviously, paralegal jobs don't lead to great careers without a law degree. At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in renewable energy finance, so I could possible try to get an MBA instead of a law degree (but I kind of suck at math).

Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.

Assuming you aren't URM you have a good shot at places like NU and other good lower T14 with small schollys, as well as strong regionals with $$$. I'd go in your shoes. You know what you are getting into, you won't have to take on too massive of a debt, and you are reasonably likely to get a job.

Honestly though, you should prolly retake. A 170+ would make you upper T14 secure with $$

He's looking a lot better than that

[spleenworship]

If it's alright (and just ignore me if it's not), I'd like to jump in here and see what people think about attending law school coming from my circumstances, which are significantly different than the OP's and than many of the situations discussed here.

First, most of the situations discussed here have involved people with no practical understanding of law, but I have been working as a paralegal at a midsize NYC firm since August and actually do enjoy the work for the most part. It's not the sub-area in which I would eventually like to practice (renewable energy finance), but it's in the general area (corporate finance).

Second, I DO, however, have a fairly well-paying job, instead of the OP's close to minimum wage position. However, obviously, paralegal jobs don't lead to great careers without a law degree. At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in renewable energy finance, so I could possible try to get an MBA instead of a law degree (but I kind of suck at math).

Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.

Assuming you aren't URM you have a good shot at places like NU and other good lower T14 with small schollys, as well as strong regionals with $$$. I'd go in your shoes. You know what you are getting into, you won't have to take on too massive of a debt, and you are reasonably likely to get a job.

Honestly though, you should prolly retake. A 170+ would make you upper T14 secure with $$

He's looking a lot better than that

That's pretty close to what I said, honestly.

[romothesavior]

I recommend all the 0Ls who bitch about there being too much negativity think about why basically the only people bitching about how there's too much negativity are 0Ls.

Because you assholes stand united and change the criteria to your personal cutoff so you never have to admit law school is worth going to.

I actually sort of agree with you that some people have gone a little overboard with the arbitrary "Only go if XYZ conditions are satisfied." Especially when it's shit like "Only go to HYS, or to the T6 for free" or really over the top stuff like that. I'm pretty anti-law school, but I do think the message has gotten a little excessive at times.

But rad has a really, really good point about the people whining about the negativity: they're almost universally 1Ls. After close to four years on this site, the majority of which I've been an actual law student, I've gotten pretty sick of hearing 0Ls tell me and the other law students on TLS that we're "too negative," or "elitist," or imply that we don't know what we're talking about. It's tiring. And WokeUpInACar, the message around here isn't self-selection thing. I have friends IRL who are so anti-law school they would make me sound like an adcomm. Or maybe you were implying the negative folks are bitter/jobless? In general, that's not at all the case.

I think any 0L reading this should really take Campos' post on page 2 to heart. So, so many people go to law school for the wrong reasons or have this completely ridiculous notion of what their future as a lawyer is going to look like. It's not always the financial risks that make it a bad investment; sometimes its just stupid to waste three years on a degree that won't get you what you're looking for.

[BigZuck]

I think it is pretty silly that TLS has become so over the top negative that someone like you is considering not going. The options you'll have are going to be exponentially better than your current situation. Obviously you shouldn't attend if you don't want to be a lawyer, but I think not going to a t10 law school with $ or a t20 with $$$ just because of concerns about employment prospects, which, while not great, certainly aren't THAT bad, is kinda ridiculous when your curent situation sucks. Succeeding at anything is going to require some risks, and Sinfiery has noted the shortsightedness of many around here who overlook the relatively marginal value that your degree needs to add to make attending a good decision in the long run.

+1

+2

It's a bad idea for a lot of people to go to law school. Most people who go to law school probably shouldn't. Twinkle is not one of those people.

[romothesavior]

I think it is pretty silly that TLS has become so over the top negative that someone like you is considering not going. The options you'll have are going to be exponentially better than your current situation. Obviously you shouldn't attend if you don't want to be a lawyer, but I think not going to a t10 law school with $ or a t20 with $$$ just because of concerns about employment prospects, which, while not great, certainly aren't THAT bad, is kinda ridiculous when your curent situation sucks. Succeeding at anything is going to require some risks, and Sinfiery has noted the shortsightedness of many around here who overlook the relatively marginal value that your degree needs to add to make attending a good decision in the long run.

+1

+2

It's a bad idea for a lot of people to go to law school. Most people who go to law school probably shouldn't. Twinkle is not one of those people.

Assuming that OP knows what practicing law is like and actually wants to do it, I agree that she's the type of person for whom this investment makes sense.

[spleenworship]

Assuming that OP knows what practicing law is like and actually wants to do it, I agree that she's the type of person for whom this investment makes sense.

This.

[BigZuck]

I recommend all the 0Ls who bitch about there being too much negativity think about why basically the only people bitching about how there's too much negativity are 0Ls.

Because you assholes stand united and change the criteria to your personal cutoff so you never have to admit law school is worth going to.

I actually sort of agree with you that some people have gone a little overboard with the arbitrary "Only go if XYZ conditions are satisfied." Especially when it's shit like "Only go to HYS, or to the T6 for free" or really over the top stuff like that. I'm pretty anti-law school, but I do think the message has gotten a little excessive at times.

But rad has a really, really good point about the people whining about the negativity: they're almost universally 1Ls. After close to four years on this site, the majority of which I've been an actual law student, I've gotten pretty sick of hearing 0Ls tell me and the other law students on TLS that we're "too negative," or "elitist," or imply that we don't know what we're talking about. It's tiring. And WokeUpInACar, the message around here isn't self-selection thing. I have friends IRL who are so anti-law school they would make me sound like an adcomm. Or maybe you were implying the negative folks are bitter/jobless? In general, that's not at all the case.

I think any 0L reading this should really take Campos' post on page 2 to heart. So, so many people go to law school for the wrong reasons or have this completely ridiculous notion of what their future as a lawyer is going to look like. It's not always the financial risks that make it a bad investment; sometimes its just stupid to waste three years on a degree that won't get you what you're looking for.

I agree with wokeupinacar, some of the most vocal anti-law school folks on this site (regardless of what number L they are) have become so cartoonishly over the top that it's just not even worth reading their posts anymore. I'm not complaining about them being elitists or whatever. It's just that they are so clownish with their responses and the stretches they make just to say something negative that its almost like watching Skip Bayless talk about sports. You can only laugh at the ridiculousness for so long before you just have to tune it out.

Disclaimer: I'm a 0L. Also I'm not neccessarily talking about anyone who has posted in this thread (yet).

[09042014]

If it's alright (and just ignore me if it's not), I'd like to jump in here and see what people think about attending law school coming from my circumstances, which are significantly different than the OP's and than many of the situations discussed here.

First, most of the situations discussed here have involved people with no practical understanding of law, but I have been working as a paralegal at a midsize NYC firm since August and actually do enjoy the work for the most part. It's not the sub-area in which I would eventually like to practice (renewable energy finance), but it's in the general area (corporate finance).

Second, I DO, however, have a fairly well-paying job, instead of the OP's close to minimum wage position. However, obviously, paralegal jobs don't lead to great careers without a law degree. At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in renewable energy finance, so I could possible try to get an MBA instead of a law degree (but I kind of suck at math).

Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.

Doesn't anyone actually do renewable energy finance as a legal speciality? It's way too obscure to have people build a practice on it. At least a practice that will hire you to work for them. Why would renewable energy projects need their own specialty.

And this is coming from a guy who actually did legal work on renewable energy finance.