Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me Forum

[helix23]

+1 to all this. We're in pretty similar situations so I'll be watching this thread. Once I get more info I'll be starting my own. Hard to know what to do without all the decisions and scholarships.

[Crowing]

new big law employment figures will come in about 3-4 weeks. From a magazine I use to work for I'm hearing berkeley had a monster year.

interesting - heard any other reports?

[zman]

new big law employment figures will come in about 3-4 weeks. From a magazine I use to work for I'm hearing berkeley had a monster year.

interesting - heard any other reports?

they come out at the of the month, so you will have big law placement before you have to make the decision.

[Rahviveh]

+1 to all this. We're in pretty similar situations so I'll be watching this thread. Once I get more info I'll be starting my own. Hard to know what to do without all the decisions and scholarships.

Cant wait for the "CCB > N?" threads

[Redamon1]

Job > CA --- NYU
CA > Job --- Berkeley

This is silly. If you're going to regurgitate TLS group think, at least do it right.

[megagnarley]

Job > CA --- NYU
CA > Job --- Berkeley

This is silly. If you're going to regurgitate TLS group think, at least do it right.

Um, what?

2011:
NYU: 43% biglaw (-14%), 11% clerkship (+1%) = 54%
Berkeley: 42% biglaw (-10%), 12% clerkship (+4%) = 54%

2010:
NYU: 66.80%
Berkeley: 58.45%


Though it's not possible to give the self-selecting PI contingent at NYU an exact % it is certainly a non-negligible amount, meaning the gap between ability to get biglaw overall at the two schools is not as small as it would seem, and even that group notwithstanding, NYU still has an edge.

If you're going to insult someone, get your facts straight first.

[BigZuck]

new big law employment figures will come in about 3-4 weeks. From a magazine I use to work for I'm hearing berkeley had a monster year.

interesting - heard any other reports?

I heard GTown had 50+% in big law this year.

No, lolno, or hell no?

[Redamon1]

Job > CA --- NYU
CA > Job --- Berkeley

This is silly. If you're going to regurgitate TLS group think, at least do it right.

Um, what?

2011:
NYU: 43% biglaw (-14%), 11% clerkship (+1%) = 54%
Berkeley: 42% biglaw (-10%), 12% clerkship (+4%) = 54%

2010:
NYU: 66.80%
Berkeley: 58.45%


Though it's not possible to give the self-selecting PI contingent at NYU an exact % it is certainly a non-negligible amount, meaning the gap between ability to get biglaw overall at the two schools is not as small as it would seem, and even that group notwithstanding, NYU still has an edge.

If you're going to insult someone, get your facts straight first.

My main issue with your post is that, while I think you meant to draw a comparison between ability to get big law jobs, you made it sound like anyone concerned with employment overall should look at Berkeley suspiciously, unless they are happy to be unemployed in CA. But even then, your words make the gap sound much larger than the numbers that you just presented suggest. Just like NYU, B has a significant PI contingent whose self selection is hard to factor in. The school draws lots of people that are interested in PI and places its grads well. In that sense, the schools have comparable profiles and a lot of people here have chosen B over NYU. Not to mention that if OP wants to do biglaw AND stay in CA, B likely > NYU. So the difference in absolute biglaw numbers is narrow to begin with, and if you factor in PI and geographical considerations, the difference is not self evident. Understand that I'm not saying NYU is a not a good choice, but any difference should not be overblown.

[megagnarley]

Job > CA --- NYU
CA > Job --- Berkeley

This is silly. If you're going to regurgitate TLS group think, at least do it right.

Um, what?

2011:
NYU: 43% biglaw (-14%), 11% clerkship (+1%) = 54%
Berkeley: 42% biglaw (-10%), 12% clerkship (+4%) = 54%

2010:
NYU: 66.80%
Berkeley: 58.45%


Though it's not possible to give the self-selecting PI contingent at NYU an exact % it is certainly a non-negligible amount, meaning the gap between ability to get biglaw overall at the two schools is not as small as it would seem, and even that group notwithstanding, NYU still has an edge.

If you're going to insult someone, get your facts straight first.

My main issue with your post is that, while I think you meant to draw a comparison between ability to get big law jobs, you made it sound like anyone concerned with employment overall should look at Berkeley suspiciously, unless they are happy to be unemployed in CA. But even then, your words make the gap sound much larger than the numbers that you just presented suggest. Just like NYU, B has a significant PI contingent whose self selection is hard to factor in. The school draws lots of people that are interested in PI and places its grads well. In that sense, the schools have comparable profiles and a lot of people here have chosen B over NYU. Not to mention that if OP wants to do biglaw AND stay in CA, B likely > NYU. So the difference in absolute biglaw numbers is narrow to begin with, and if you factor in PI and geographical considerations, the difference is not self evident. Understand that I'm not saying NYU is a not a good choice, but any difference should not be overblown.

If your main issue with my response was that it "made it sound like anyone concerned with employment overall should look at Berkeley suspiciously," then your issue is in your own tangential deduction because I never implied that.

The layout of my original response stated that if you want the best shot at biglaw overall NYU has the edge (as it has historically) and if you care about California more than overall biglaw prospects Berkeley has the edge (as it has historically).

That is not silly. That is accurate.

edit: spellcheck

[helix23]

GOLD MINE OF INFORMATION

[Tom Joad]

That is the best spam I have ever seen.

[KingFish]

Dude, Penn>B

[Crowing]

you should probably not be quoting spam

[twinkletoes16]

I guess what I'm asking also is: what is the most you would go into debt for a school/tier? This is different for everyone but I'm interested to see people's comfort levels based on employment stats, reputation, etc.
I.e.

HYS
CCN
BVMP
DGNC
USC/UCLA/Texas/vandy

[BigZuck]

HYS- sticker
CCN- 150K
BVMPDGNC-130K
USC/UCLA/Texas/vandy-100K

[20141023]

.

[twinkletoes16]

HYS- sticker
CCN- 150K
BVMPDGNC-130K
USC/UCLA/Texas/vandy-100K

Is this including CoL zuck? JW. I'm assuming $20k for CoL for people? Or too high?

[suralin]

At Sticker:
Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Pennsylvania

With $50,000+ in Scholarship:
Berkeley

With $100,000+ in Scholarship:
UVA

With $150,000+ in Scholarship:
Michigan, Duke, Northwestern

With Full-Ride Scholarship:
Georgetown, Cornell

With Full-Ride Scholarship + Decent Living Stipend:
UCLA, Texas, Vandy, USC

With Full-Ride Scholarship + $3,000,000 Stipend:
Cooley

*I have some money in savings which might slightly skew where I am willing to go for what amounts.

Hmm, interesting. For you, the difference between UVA and Cornell is worth $65k+? I can understand GULC, but Cornell's BigLaw numbers seem pretty promising. Also, the difference between UVA and Michigan is worth $50k for you?

FWIW, I'm genuinely interested, not trying to attack you or anything like that.

[zman]

At Sticker:
Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Pennsylvania

With $50,000+ in Scholarship:
Berkeley

With $100,000+ in Scholarship:
UVA

With $150,000+ in Scholarship:
Michigan, Duke, Northwestern

With Full-Ride Scholarship:
Georgetown, Cornell

With Full-Ride Scholarship + Decent Living Stipend:
UCLA, Texas, Vandy, USC

With Full-Ride Scholarship + $3,000,000 Stipend:
Cooley

*I have some money in savings which might slightly skew where I am willing to go for what amounts.

Hmm, interesting. For you, the difference between UVA and Cornell is worth $65k+? I can understand GULC, but Cornell's BigLaw numbers seem pretty promising. Also, the difference between UVA and Michigan is worth $50k for you?

FWIW, I'm genuinely interested, not trying to attack you or anything like that.

decent list.. Chicago, Columbia, Penn and NYU do NOT have near perfect employment(big law, high end government, high end clerkship) like Stanford, Harvard and Yale so therefore they don't belong in the same category.

[Crowing]

At Sticker:
Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Pennsylvania

With $50,000+ in Scholarship:
Berkeley

With $100,000+ in Scholarship:
UVA

With $150,000+ in Scholarship:
Michigan, Duke, Northwestern

With Full-Ride Scholarship:
Georgetown, Cornell

With Full-Ride Scholarship + Decent Living Stipend:
UCLA, Texas, Vandy, USC

With Full-Ride Scholarship + $3,000,000 Stipend:
Cooley

*I have some money in savings which might slightly skew where I am willing to go for what amounts.

Hmm, interesting. For you, the difference between UVA and Cornell is worth $65k+? I can understand GULC, but Cornell's BigLaw numbers seem pretty promising. Also, the difference between UVA and Michigan is worth $50k for you?

FWIW, I'm genuinely interested, not trying to attack you or anything like that.

decent list.. Chicago, Columbia, Penn and NYU do NOT have near perfect employment(big law, high end government, high end clerkship) like Stanford, Harvard and Yale so therefore they don't belong in the same category.

HYS don't have anywhere near perfect employment stats either. The only difference is that people are more willing to buy the hypothesis that HYS students self-select out of "good legal jobs" than they are willing to accept a similar statement about CCN.

[suralin]

I guess what I'm asking also is: what is the most you would go into debt for a school/tier? This is different for everyone but I'm interested to see people's comfort levels based on employment stats, reputation, etc.
I.e.

HYS
CCN
BVMP
DGNC
USC/UCLA/Texas/vandy

Including COL, here are the total debt amounts I'd be willing to take on:

HYSCCNP - sticker (Penn here because of proximity to a decently-sized legal market and pretty good BigLaw placement numbers)
BVMDCN - 150K
G - 100K (way too crowded market and way too large class sizes)

Nothing outside of T14 since if I didn't get any of the above, I'd just retake until both my LSAT and WE were maxed out, or not go to law school at all.

Also, those debt amounts are pretty high since family is willing to help with loans, I'm IP-eligible, and I have back-up plans if I don't get a 2L SA.

[BigZuck]

HYS- sticker
CCN- 150K
BVMPDGNC-130K
USC/UCLA/Texas/vandy-100K

Is this including CoL zuck? JW. I'm assuming $20k for CoL for people? Or too high?

Yes I am including cost of living. So for USC, I would only be willing to pay about 10K in tuition a year.

If you want to know the cost of living for a school then just find a school's cost of attendance and subtract tuition and fees and you will be left with cost of living. 20k a year is basically the budget they allow for high COL areas like NY, DC, and CA and lower COL areas like Austin, Ann Arbor, etc. would probably be closer to 15k a year.

[Tiago Splitter]

decent list.. Chicago, Columbia, Penn and NYU do NOT have near perfect employment(big law, high end government, high end clerkship) like Stanford, Harvard and Yale so therefore they don't belong in the same category.

He didn't say they belong in the same category, only that he'd pay sticker at all 7. Maybe he'd go 350K in debt for HYS.

[20141023]

.

[twinkletoes16]

Edited original post to pose another question that I thought of.


I went OOS to an UG on the other side of the country. Does this impact my ties at all? I feel like firms might start looking at me skeptically since I graduated high school in NorCal and then left, then came back, then left again. Should I be looking pretty much at Berk/USC/UCLA right now to confirm ties?