PLEASE HELP! Fordham (sticker) vs. CUNY Forum

[Asst. Principal Bone]

I think you should pick CUNY and stop being such a BITCH young man. Yoodolahewho...

Not a man. Care to share why?

In that case, http://www.iceculinary.com young LADY.

[BlackOctober]

I'm not 100% sure--don't skewer me.

I'm not trying to at all. But PI, especially worthwhile PI, is just as prestige-whorey as law firms are. Additionally, they are just as, if not more so, selective. That's the reason I ask about demonstrated interest by experience - "a little and I want to get more" isn't going to be good enough when you're going to be competing against people that have worked for years in non-profits, etc.

Unless you want to be a public defender, I think you're better off at Fordham for backup options, and at 80K it's a pretty good deal.

I definitely see your point, and thanks for your advice. One last question--if I was 100% set on PI (doesn't necessarily have to be super worthwhile or high paying), would you still say Fordham?

[flem]

I definitely see your point, and thanks for your advice. One last question--if I was 100% set on PI (doesn't necessarily have to be super worthwhile or high paying), would you still say Fordham?

Probably, CUNY would be good if it was CUNY v. Fordham at actual (like, 250K) sticker price. Fordham gives you softer landing options should you strike out on PI. It also gives you the cushion to go for both PI or firm work should you change your mind, while you put all your eggs in one basket with CUNY.

[overunderachiever]

Go to Fordham. If PI was really your passion, you wouldn't have started this thread. Oh, and here are pics of the new building.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cunylawpho ... 5185/show/

To say that you are in no position to make such a conclusion is an understatement. Yes, the new building is beautiful--I've been there.

What I'm saying is that if you really wanted to do PI, CUNY would've been a no-brainer in this scenario. Oh, and I go to CUNY, so if you have any questions, inbox me.

[top30man]

I definitely see your point, and thanks for your advice. One last question--if I was 100% set on PI (doesn't necessarily have to be super worthwhile or high paying), would you still say Fordham?

Probably, CUNY would be good if it was CUNY v. Fordham at actual (like, 250K) sticker price. Fordham gives you softer landing options should you strike out on PI. It also gives you the cushion to go for both PI or firm work should you change your mind, while you put all your eggs in one basket with CUNY.

Agreed. Especially since its not the sticker price in loans, it's easily the better option.

[BlackOctober]

For those of you who said Fordham is the better option:

Fordham's class size is over 4x larger than CUNY's class size. This (along with the fact that some people are paying much more for school than at CUNY) makes me feel as if the competition would be so much more intense at Fordham--although I've heard countless times how Fordham's students "aren't competitive with one another." Taking into account that there are going to be nearly 500 people that want to be at the top (or at least top half) of the class, how do you think a Fordham Law student who graduates below median would make out?

[androstan]

CUNY Employment (LinkRemoved)

CUNY placed 19 students in long term, full time PI.

CUNY placed 0 2 students in law firms larger than 10 attorneys. [Edited for accuracy]

Fordham employment (LinkRemoved)

Fordham placed 13 students in long term, full time PI

Fordham placed ~100 students in "biglaw," ~30 in "midlaw."

I suspect CUNY places more students into PI out of necessity/desperation, rather than CUNY actually being a place of greater opportunity.

In any event, if OP can get PI from either school, s/he will be fine. PI and no debt from CUNY or PI and 10 year IBR from Fordham are both solid outcomes. If OP doesn't get PI, OP is relying on biglaw from Fordham, which is ~20% chance. After a few years in biglaw, OP will have exit options to do something s/he wants to do for a legal career, such as in-house or (maybe?) PI still. From CUNY, OP has nothing to fall back on. With no debt, OP may be able to string together temp, doc review, and per diem work, but OP will not have a legal career to speak of, and OP will not have achieved financial stability. Stringing together such jobs to pay the bills will also be extremely stressful, probably as stressful as biglaw, except it will probably last at least 10 years (instead of 5 or so for biglaw).

Go to Fordhamneither.

[rickgrimes69]

CUNY Employment (LinkRemoved)

CUNY placed 19 students in long term, full time PI.

CUNY placed 0 students in law firms larger than 10 attorneys.

lolwut

[dingbat]

CUNY Employment (LinkRemoved)

CUNY placed 19 students in long term, full time PI.

CUNY placed 0 students in law firms larger than 10 attorneys.

lolwut

Not true - 2 students are employed at firms of 11-25.
CUNY has about 25% unemployed, which is similar to peer schools in the region. (45% full time bar required employment)
However, sticker is significantly cheaper than any other school in the region. That is the only reason to attend CUNY - cost.

[androstan]

CUNY Employment (LinkRemoved)

CUNY placed 19 students in long term, full time PI.

CUNY placed 0 students in law firms larger than 10 attorneys.

lolwut

Not true - 2 students are employed at firms of 11-25.
CUNY has about 25% unemployed, which is similar to peer schools in the region. (45% full time bar required employment)
However, sticker is significantly cheaper than any other school in the region. That is the only reason to attend CUNY - cost.

You are correct. Fortunately the error was minor enough that it didn't undermine the point.

[overunderachiever]

CUNY Employment (LinkRemoved)

CUNY placed 19 students in long term, full time PI.

CUNY placed 0 2 students in law firms larger than 10 attorneys. [Edited for accuracy]

Fordham employment (LinkRemoved)

Fordham placed 13 students in long term, full time PI

Fordham placed ~100 students in "biglaw," ~30 in "midlaw."

I suspect CUNY places more students into PI out of necessity/desperation, rather than CUNY actually being a place of greater opportunity.

In any event, if OP can get PI from either school, s/he will be fine. PI and no debt from CUNY or PI and 10 year IBR from Fordham are both solid outcomes. If OP doesn't get PI, OP is relying on biglaw from Fordham, which is ~20% chance. After a few years in biglaw, OP will have exit options to do something s/he wants to do for a legal career, such as in-house or (maybe?) PI still. From CUNY, OP has nothing to fall back on. With no debt, OP may be able to string together temp, doc review, and per diem work, but OP will not have a legal career to speak of, and OP will not have achieved financial stability. Stringing together such jobs to pay the bills will also be extremely stressful, probably as stressful as biglaw, except it will probably last at least 10 years (instead of 5 or so for biglaw).

Go to Fordhamneither.

You are aware that CUNY's "mission" is to produce PI lawyers right? Take a look at their personal statement topic. And as some of the other posters pointed out, a reputable PI job isn't necessarily easy to get. Also, I don't think anyone believes that CUNY is a "place of greater opportunity" but sometimes is the less riskier option.

[androstan]

CUNY Employment (LinkRemoved)

CUNY placed 19 students in long term, full time PI.

CUNY placed 0 2 students in law firms larger than 10 attorneys. [Edited for accuracy]

Fordham employment (LinkRemoved)

Fordham placed 13 students in long term, full time PI

Fordham placed ~100 students in "biglaw," ~30 in "midlaw."

I suspect CUNY places more students into PI out of necessity/desperation, rather than CUNY actually being a place of greater opportunity.

In any event, if OP can get PI from either school, s/he will be fine. PI and no debt from CUNY or PI and 10 year IBR from Fordham are both solid outcomes. If OP doesn't get PI, OP is relying on biglaw from Fordham, which is ~20% chance. After a few years in biglaw, OP will have exit options to do something s/he wants to do for a legal career, such as in-house or (maybe?) PI still. From CUNY, OP has nothing to fall back on. With no debt, OP may be able to string together temp, doc review, and per diem work, but OP will not have a legal career to speak of, and OP will not have achieved financial stability. Stringing together such jobs to pay the bills will also be extremely stressful, probably as stressful as biglaw, except it will probably last at least 10 years (instead of 5 or so for biglaw).

Go to Fordhamneither.

You are aware that CUNY's "mission" is to produce PI lawyers right? Take a look at their personal statement topic. And as some of the other posters pointed out, a reputable PI job isn't necessarily easy to get. Also, I don't think anyone believes that CUNY is a "place of greater opportunity" but sometimes is the less riskier option.

A reputable PI job is definitely not easy to get. Which is why OP should have backup options and go to Fordham. CUNY is actually riskier.

[JamesChapman23]

What is the difference again between 80k and 200k debt? If you can't find a full-time real job after graduation, you default and ruin your life in both circumstances.

I would say the chances that you end up the top of your class are low- considering you got zero scholarship money, you probably don't have a great LSAT/GPA compared to your classmates.

I would also feel bad about spending 150k of my parents money. Then, again, I might just have old anglo-saxon values of fiscal prudence and not relying on others (especially my parents).

[dingbat]

A reputable PI job is definitely not easy to get. Which is why OP should have backup options and go to Fordham. CUNY is actually riskier.

I disagree. If OP is very interested in PI, taking on $150k of debt is far riskier.
I have a contrarian view on LRAP/PSLF & IBR in that it should be a last resort option rather than the default. Graduating with under $50k of debt will give OP a much better life compared to having $150k plus of debt. This is especially true if OP changes his/her mind about PI after 2-3 years in the field and will lose LRAP/PSLF, in which case it'll be be even more important to not have much debt.

[Bronx Bum]

Coming from someone who paid sticker (only tuition) at Fordham with that had small firm job offers and three PI offers (including a DA offer), I would advise against going to Fordham at sticker. The debt is truly life altering. And what is sad about it is that smaller firms and most DA offices do not care about the differences between Fordham and Brooklyn/St.Johns/etc.
.
In fact, many classes at Brooklyn and St. John's (like Fordham) are taught by prestigious state judges and ADAs and even DAs that can actually help you out in your career.

Except for Biglaw, Fordham doesn't really give you an advantage.

[androstan]

A reputable PI job is definitely not easy to get. Which is why OP should have backup options and go to Fordham. CUNY is actually riskier.

I disagree. If OP is very interested in PI, taking on $150k of debt is far riskier.
I have a contrarian view on LRAP/PSLF & IBR in that it should be a last resort option rather than the default. Graduating with under $50k of debt will give OP a much better life compared to having $150k plus of debt. This is especially true if OP changes his/her mind about PI after 2-3 years in the field and will lose LRAP/PSLF, in which case it'll be be even more important to not have much debt.

You need to read the thread. OP is looking at $80k of debt. That isn't nothing, but it's much smaller. I don't know how the numbers come out for IBR, but I suspect that a 10 year IBR plan with $80k debt is pretty manageable.

If OP goes to CUNY, OP is not changing her mind about PI, even if she does change her mind about PI. If OP goes to Fordham, OP stands a not-insignificant chance of of changing her mind about PI.

[androstan]

Coming from someone who paid sticker (only tuition) at Fordham with that had small firm job offers and three PI offers (including a DA offer), I would advise against going to Fordham at sticker. The debt is truly life altering. And what is sad about it is that smaller firms and most DA offices do not care about the differences between Fordham and Brooklyn/St.Johns/etc.
.
In fact, many classes at Brooklyn and St. John's (like Fordham) are taught by prestigious state judges and ADAs and even DAs that can actually help you out in your career.

Except for Biglaw an alternate career option as a lawyer should you not get PI, Fordham doesn't really give you an advantage.

I should repeat. CUNY placed nineteen students in long term, FT PI.

[Bronx Bum]

A reputable PI job is definitely not easy to get. Which is why OP should have backup options and go to Fordham. CUNY is actually riskier.

I disagree. If OP is very interested in PI, taking on $150k of debt is far riskier.
I have a contrarian view on LRAP/PSLF & IBR in that it should be a last resort option rather than the default. Graduating with under $50k of debt will give OP a much better life compared to having $150k plus of debt. This is especially true if OP changes his/her mind about PI after 2-3 years in the field and will lose LRAP/PSLF, in which case it'll be be even more important to not have much debt.

You need to read the thread. OP is looking at $80k of debt. That isn't nothing, but it's much smaller. I don't know how the numbers come out for IBR, but I suspect that a 10 year IBR plan with $80k debt is pretty manageable.

If OP goes to CUNY, OP is not changing her mind about PI, even if she does change her mind about PI. If OP goes to Fordham, OP stands a not-insignificant chance of of changing her mind about PI.

This board also seriously overestimate's one's ability to stick around in PI for ten years. Even if someone can get a P.I. job, they're going to be sitting on one ass cheek until they know for sure that their offer isn't rescinded.

And there are BIG changes looming in goverment budgets.

[Bronx Bum]

Coming from someone who paid sticker (only tuition) at Fordham with that had small firm job offers and three PI offers (including a DA offer), I would advise against going to Fordham at sticker. The debt is truly life altering. And what is sad about it is that smaller firms and most DA offices do not care about the differences between Fordham and Brooklyn/St.Johns/etc.
.
In fact, many classes at Brooklyn and St. John's (like Fordham) are taught by prestigious state judges and ADAs and even DAs that can actually help you out in your career.

Except for Biglaw an alternate career option as a lawyer should you not get PI, Fordham doesn't really give you an advantage.

I should repeat. CUNY placed nineteen students in long term, FT PI.

Maybe I'm a little punchy and not all here right now, but please explain to me how that has anything to do with what I said?

edit: I kind of read your post and I understand what you wrote, but I don't think Fordham gives you a leg up in other jobs besides biglaw. Just from my experience at Fordham....meh..read it again, maybe you're right when talking CUNY.

[dingbat]

A reputable PI job is definitely not easy to get. Which is why OP should have backup options and go to Fordham. CUNY is actually riskier.

I disagree. If OP is very interested in PI, taking on $150k of debt is far riskier.
I have a contrarian view on LRAP/PSLF & IBR in that it should be a last resort option rather than the default. Graduating with under $50k of debt will give OP a much better life compared to having $150k plus of debt. This is especially true if OP changes his/her mind about PI after 2-3 years in the field and will lose LRAP/PSLF, in which case it'll be be even more important to not have much debt.

You need to read the thread. OP is looking at $80k of debt. That isn't nothing, but it's much smaller. I don't know how the numbers come out for IBR, but I suspect that a 10 year IBR plan with $80k debt is pretty manageable.

If OP goes to CUNY, OP is not changing her mind about PI, even if she does change her mind about PI. If OP goes to Fordham, OP stands a not-insignificant chance of of changing her mind about PI.

I just reread - going into PI with no debt is a smarter option than going into PI with $80k debt. While it'll be harder to get a job out of CUNY than Fordham, not having $80k debt will give OP significantly more freedom down the line. However, attending CUNY means having practically no shot at working at a law firm, so OP must be confident that s/he will not want those options available.
My track record is very pro-Fordham, but I'm also very anti-debt. In this case, since OP wants PI, I would recommend CUNY with no debt (and an increased likelihood of future support from the bank of mom&dad)

[JCFindley]

What is the difference again between 80k and 200k debt? If you can't find a full-time real job after graduation, you default and ruin your life in both circumstances.

I would say the chances that you end up the top of your class are low- considering you got zero scholarship money, you probably don't have a great LSAT/GPA compared to your classmates.

I would also feel bad about spending 150k of my parents money. Then, again, I might just have old anglo-saxon values of fiscal prudence and not relying on others (especially my parents).

So, if that is true then would you say if you got $$$ at a lower ranked school then you SHOULD be in the top of your class? Would you go so far as to say that if you are in the top 10% of LSATs and GPAs then they should finish in the top 10%? That is good to know cause now I could just go to a TTTT and count on being in the top 10%, thus profit. Oh, wait, that is bad logic isn't it?

[romothesavior]

The answer is still neither one.

[flem]

The answer is still neither one.

You don't think 80K of debt for Fordham is reasonable? That would probably be my limit.

Also according to LST CUNY is only placing a little more than a third of grads in FT bar required employment for C/O 2011, which is SPS.

[dingbat]

The answer is still neither one.

Very constructive

[androstan]

A reputable PI job is definitely not easy to get. Which is why OP should have backup options and go to Fordham. CUNY is actually riskier.

I disagree. If OP is very interested in PI, taking on $150k of debt is far riskier.
I have a contrarian view on LRAP/PSLF & IBR in that it should be a last resort option rather than the default. Graduating with under $50k of debt will give OP a much better life compared to having $150k plus of debt. This is especially true if OP changes his/her mind about PI after 2-3 years in the field and will lose LRAP/PSLF, in which case it'll be be even more important to not have much debt.

You need to read the thread. OP is looking at $80k of debt. That isn't nothing, but it's much smaller. I don't know how the numbers come out for IBR, but I suspect that a 10 year IBR plan with $80k debt is pretty manageable.

If OP goes to CUNY, OP is not changing her mind about PI, even if she does change her mind about PI. If OP goes to Fordham, OP stands a not-insignificant chance of of changing her mind about PI.

I just reread - going into PI with no debt is a smarter option than going into PI with $80k debt. While it'll be harder to get a job out of CUNY than Fordham, not having $80k debt will give OP significantly more freedom down the line. However, attending CUNY means having practically no shot at working at a law firm, so OP must be confident that s/he will not want those options available.
My track record is very pro-Fordham, but I'm also very anti-debt. In this case, since OP wants PI, I would recommend CUNY with no debt (and an increased likelihood of future support from the bank of mom&dad)

I get your point, I just disagree, and there's no objectively right answer.

I think OP's chances of PI are roughly equal out of either school, call it X. The chances of big/mid law at Fordham is roughly 0.25 and at CUNY is precisely 0.0000. OP's chances of being in a difficult financial situation at CUNY is Yc = 1-X, whereas at Fordham it is Yf = 1-0.25-X.

Yf<Yc, but you will point out that Yf involves paying on an $80k debt on a low income, while Yc would be doing so with 0 debt. But I will argue that paying on an $80k debt under IBR won't be that bad. I will also argue that one should choose a school based on which provides the best chance of an acceptable outcome if one gets the grades/connections, not which one will be a little less devastating if one doesn't make the grades/connections.

Go to Fordhamretake the lsat university.