Berkeley vs. Georgetown Forum

[dannyde7]

FWIW I picked Berkeley (0L) after speaking to alumns on the East Coast during several receptions and employers and getting assurances that the Berkeley name really carried weight on the East Coast with firms, govt and PI. Many people move back east after graduation. Some even said it was an advantage to have graduated from a school with comparatively fewer alumns on the east coast because employers like to have a diverse set of recruits. I'm also an East Coast guy, and although I'm looking forward to discovering CA -- and am open to living there after school -- I wanted to be sure that I could head back East if I wanted to. For me, job prospects and geographical flexibility were top priority.

And, BTW I'm doing the long-distance relationship thing for a while before my SO joins me in CA. I'm not thrilled about that, but I'm ready and determined to make it work. Book those flights early and get yourself on a good mileage program!

Lastly, it is one of the most commonly acknowledged traits of Berkeley that the student body is relatively more friendly and less competitive than at other schools. Granted I don't study there yet, but my visit at the school and my interactions with students and alumni on the East Coast were vey positive. As others have said, I think Dean Tom's selection and the grading system are likely two major factors.

Last but not least, I've lived in DC and I think it's a great city. You should know though, that the GULC campus and surrounding area are not the best. They are NOT part of the Georgetown neighborhood and campus. I wouldn't say it's a deal breaker though. Obviously, UC Berkeley and the Bay Area are great as well. Given your circumstances, I wouldn't rule either place out because of location. I'm sure you'd make the best of both locations. Consider that if you want to live in DC, you could do it after school.

redamon1, just out of curiosity, which schools did you choose Berkeley over?

Other T14 options. Happy to discuss in PM.

Thanks!

[chipchip]

Not sure if its true, but Georgetown and Cornell are kinda famous for putting grads in the slums of Biglaw (as far as I've heard). Berkeley, though it doesn't place in the numbers one would expect of a school of its caliber, puts people into just fantastic positions. All anecdotal from trolling around here. A little research on OP's part could probably substantiate or dismiss it.

Remember, if you get the chance when selecting a law school, to not just look at biglaw placement, but at the kinds of firms your options give you.

I'm sorry, but seriously?! We place just fine at top firms, thank you very much (and every school places in the "slums"). The V10s may not go as deep into the GULC class as they would at NYU or Columbia, say, but plenty of people end up at them (and other prestigious firms like W&C, Boies, etc.) each year. And getting your GULC anecdotes from trolling around here won't give you much information given the negative groupthink on this board about the school (which I don't consider justified).

[nealric]

Not sure if its true, but Georgetown and Cornell are kinda famous for putting grads in the slums of Biglaw (as far as I've heard). Berkeley, though it doesn't place in the numbers one would expect of a school of its caliber, puts people into just fantastic positions. All anecdotal from trolling around here. A little research on OP's part could probably substantiate or dismiss it.

Remember, if you get the chance when selecting a law school, to not just look at biglaw placement, but at the kinds of firms your options give you.

Lulz at the "slums" of biglaw. That's like saying you live in the slums of Beverly Hills because your house is only 3,000sq feet.

[bk1]

I'm generally a GULC apologist but I'm having trouble reconciling GULC's terribly low FT, BPR job rate.

It seems that the top 1/2 of outcomes at GULC and Berkeley (maybe almost top 2/3 of them) don't look terribly dissimilar but things seem to be a lot worse for GULC's bottom 1/3 of outcomes than it is for Berkeley's bottom 1/3 of them.

[Samara]

I'm generally a GULC apologist but I'm having trouble reconciling GULC's terribly low FT, BPR job rate.

It seems that the top 1/2 of outcomes at GULC and Berkeley (maybe almost top 2/3 of them) don't look terribly dissimilar but things seem to be a lot worse for GULC's bottom 1/3 of outcomes than it is for Berkeley's bottom 1/3 of them.

You don't think it's skewed by the government relations self-selection? Campaign/political jobs may get classified as part-time or short-term and I would be surprised if many, if not most, of the lobbyist jobs aren't classified as JD-preferred, rather than JD-required.

[bk1]

You don't think it's skewed by the government relations self-selection? Campaign/political jobs may get classified as part-time or short-term and I would be surprised if many, if not most, of the lobbyist jobs aren't classified as JD-preferred, rather than JD-required.

Maybe, but that would be hard to ferret out of the data. A plausible explanation might be that the kids at GULC who fail to get biglaw/biggov/clerkship choose to do something like campaign work rather than work at a small firm. That's just a guess without any hard evidence to support it. But campaign work is pretty shitty and starting with that out of law school probably nukes one's chances of an actual legal career.

I don't think number of GULCers taking lobbyist positions is significant.

[Samara]

You don't think it's skewed by the government relations self-selection? Campaign/political jobs may get classified as part-time or short-term and I would be surprised if many, if not most, of the lobbyist jobs aren't classified as JD-preferred, rather than JD-required.

Maybe, but that would be hard to ferret out of the data. A plausible explanation might be that the kids at GULC who fail to get biglaw/biggov/clerkship choose to do something like campaign work rather than work at a small firm. That's just a guess without any hard evidence to support it. But campaign work is pretty shitty and starting with that out of law school probably nukes one's chances of an actual legal career.

I don't think number of GULCers taking lobbyist positions is significant.

Yeah, I think that contributes to an explanation of the differences in outcomes for the bottom third. Campaign work isn't necessarily shitty (well, from a pay perspective it is, haha) if you have prior experience. And you can do fairly well for yourself as a consultant or something like that. I don't have any data, but I would venture to guess that people with political backgrounds tend to self-select to GULC. However, people going that route probably are largely people who are below median, as you say.

This still isn't enough to close the gap between GULC and Berkeley entirely, but I do think it's a contributing factor, based on what I know about the political/government relations world. (This is essentially the route I plan to go if I flame out at OCI, FWIW.) I don't think we can really say one way or another unless GULC were to release a full list of employers, the way Michigan did.

[bk1]

Yeah, I think that contributes to an explanation of the differences in outcomes for the bottom third. Campaign work isn't necessarily shitty (well, from a pay perspective it is, haha) if you have prior experience. And you can do fairly well for yourself as a consultant or something like that. I don't have any data, but I would venture to guess that people with political backgrounds tend to self-select to GULC. However, people going that route probably are largely people who are below median, as you say.

Shitty pay is important for people with Uncle Sam knocking on their door asking for thousands of dollars a month in interest.

[Samara]

Yeah, I think that contributes to an explanation of the differences in outcomes for the bottom third. Campaign work isn't necessarily shitty (well, from a pay perspective it is, haha) if you have prior experience. And you can do fairly well for yourself as a consultant or something like that. I don't have any data, but I would venture to guess that people with political backgrounds tend to self-select to GULC. However, people going that route probably are largely people who are below median, as you say.

Shitty pay is important for people with Uncle Sam knocking on their door asking for thousands of dollars a month in interest.

No doubt, brother. But if my only options are politics or ambulance chasing, I'm choosing politics.

[moneybagsphd]

One thing my wife wanted to know...is weed legal now and easily available?

Marijuana is, in my experience, basically decriminalized in Berkeley. I have never heard of anyone getting busted for smoking by the police. And, smoking is pretty open in Berkeley. Occasionally (or frequently depending on the area), you will see someone smoking a joint or smell it just walking around Berkeley.
Additionally, medical marijuana is legal and available. If you drive at all you will see billboards advertising medical marijuana conventions. There are numerous hydro shops near the University Ave freeway entrance.

[Rotor]

One thing my wife wanted to know...is weed legal now and easily available?

Marijuana is, in my experience, basically decriminalized in Berkeley. I have never heard of anyone getting busted for smoking by the police. And, smoking is pretty open in Berkeley. Occasionally (or frequently depending on the area), you will see someone smoking a joint or smell it just walking around Berkeley.
Additionally, medical marijuana is legal and available. If you drive at all you will see billboards advertising medical marijuana conventions. There are numerous hydro shops near the University Ave freeway entrance.

First week in Berkeley, I was walking down Bancroft (the street running down the hill from the law school. There were a couple of townies sitting on the grass, smoking pot. A guy crossed the street mid-block at about the same spot. A bicycle cop comes tearing down the hill and cited the jaywalker!

A word about Med MJ: the Feds have started to crack down on dispensaries--not so much with DEA, but with the IRS. There was a recent revenue ruling that said a business selling controlled drugs cannot take a business expense for its inventory.* Without the deduction, lots of places have closed up. Just noticed the place on San Pablo is gone; don't know if that's why though.

*I haven't read the ruling. This is how the local media portrayed it.

[justgottabezen]

Hey where did you end up? How is it going so far?

[filibuster]

bay area born and raised....current GULC rising 2L with offers in DC and SF...pm me and we can talk