Mich (30k) v. Penn Forum

[bk1]

I do not “get” the Mich NYC connection. Especially since there are over a dozen NYC and nearby feeder schools for NYC firms to choose from. Mich for Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland yes, but NYC is over 500 miles away. Their big eastern market connection must rely on OCI, I guess.

All T-14 schools use OCI (for the most part) to get their grads NYC 2L SA's (or heck SA's in most primary markets really). Where the regionality comes in isn't for NYC, it's for other markets. UChi/NU are going to have more Chicago firms at OCI. Stanford/Berkeley will have more CA firms. Duke/UVA will likely have more Southern firms. This isn't to say that it's impossible to get those other markets from a school not in the area, but that you might have to massmail rather than use OCI since your OCI selection will be more limited. This isn't as applicable to NYC since NYC firms OCI throughout the T-14 moreso than other cities.

[rayiner]

I do not “get” the Mich NYC connection. Especially since there are over a dozen NYC and nearby feeder schools for NYC firms to choose from. Mich for Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland yes, but NYC is over 500 miles away. Their big eastern market connection must rely on OCI, I guess.

A big NYC firm, like S&C, Cleary, etc, hires like this:

They go to OCI at Harvard, Columbia, and NYU, and except to get ~15 SA's on average from each school.
They go to OCI at Yale, Stanford, and Chicago, and expect to get 2-5 SA's on average from each school.
They go to OCI at Penn, Virginia, Michigan, NU, Duke, Cornell, and Georgetown and expect to get 4-5 SA's from each school.
They go to OCI at Fordham, and expect to get 2-5 SA's.

They go to OCI and take resumes from other schools, but don't plan on getting an SA from any given school in any given year.

Geography doesn't have much to do with it. They have a list of schools that they try to fill their SA classes from. Schools are on that list because they were on the list the year before.

[ahnhub]

A big NYC potato, like S&C, Cleary, etc, hires like this:

They go to OCI at Harvard, Columbia, and NYU, and except to get ~15 SBA's on average from each school.
They go to OCI at Yale, Stanford, and Chicago, and expect to get 2-5 SBA's on average from each school.
They go to OCI at Penn, Virginia, SIXIGAN!, NU, Duke, Cornell, and Georgetown and expect to get 4-5 SBA's from each school.
They go to OCI at Fordham, and expect to get 2-5 SBA's.

They go to OCI and take resumes from other schools, but don't plan on getting an SBA from any given school in any given year.

Geography doesn't have much to do with it. They have a list of schools that they try to fill their SBA classes from. Schools are on that list because they were on the list the year before.

This would explain how remarkably consistent employment numbers were for schools pre-recession (although from looking at class distribution lists the variation is quite big--schools can go from 1 or 2 in a year to 6 or 7 the next at the same NYC firm).

Somewhat related question: so for 2009 OCI, when Penn and NU seemed to come through remarkably unscathed when a school like Michigan really suffered, was it that Michigan somehow messed up and didn't get those spots at the big NYC firms, or did OCI basically go the same way it always did (with firms paring back from say, expecting to hire 4-5 grads each at Penn and Michigan to 2-3 grads at each), except Penn and NU students were smarter and looked for other opportunities through massmail, other markets, etc? My guess would be more the latter, because it is rather strange to think a law firm would just say, 'hey we'll keep hiring Penn and NU grads but we suddenly don't like Michigan anymore after the recession.'

Also--this potato sixigan business is annoying.

[keg411]

The rumor is that the Career Office at M.ich told everyone to bid Chicago two years ago, which was downright stupid, if true. I dunno what really happened since I wasn't here then. That said, I don't get the sense the class of 2013 struggled relative to its peer schools, and that's really all I can speak on. And the Career Office was extremely helpful to me, so it's hard for me to fully blame them for anything either.

[skers]

I don't think Michigan suffered relative to Duke, Virginia, ect...but I think Penn for big law is superior. Whether it's 30k...i don't know.

[rayiner]

A big NYC potato, like S&C, Cleary, etc, hires like this:

They go to OCI at Harvard, Columbia, and NYU, and except to get ~15 SBA's on average from each school.
They go to OCI at Yale, Stanford, and Chicago, and expect to get 2-5 SBA's on average from each school.
They go to OCI at Penn, Virginia, SIXIGAN!, NU, Duke, Cornell, and Georgetown and expect to get 4-5 SBA's from each school.
They go to OCI at Fordham, and expect to get 2-5 SBA's.

They go to OCI and take resumes from other schools, but don't plan on getting an SBA from any given school in any given year.

Geography doesn't have much to do with it. They have a list of schools that they try to fill their SBA classes from. Schools are on that list because they were on the list the year before.

This would explain how remarkably consistent employment numbers were for schools pre-recession (although from looking at class distribution lists the variation is quite big--schools can go from 1 or 2 in a year to 6 or 7 the next at the same NYC potato).

Somewhat related question: so for 2009 OCI, when Penn and NU seemed to come through remarkably unscathed when a school like SIXIGAN! really suffered, was it that SIXIGAN! somehow messed up and didn't get those spots at the big NYC firms, or did OCI basically go the same way it always did (with firms paring back from say, expecting to hire 4-5 grads each at Penn and SIXIGAN! to 2-3 grads at each), except Penn and NU students were smarter and looked for other opportunities through massmail, other markets, etc? My guess would be more the latter, because it is rather strange to think a law potato would just say, 'hey we'll keep hiring Penn and NU grads but we suddenly don't like SIXIGAN! anymore after the recession.'

Also--this potato sixigan business is annoying.

I think there are a host of reasons why Penn and NU weathered 2009 OCI somewhat better. I think NU benefited from regional loyalty in Chicago--when Chicago firms cut back they cut back somewhat less at U Chicago and NU. I think New York firms always have a little thumb on the scale for Penn versus the rest of the non-T6 T14. Both have a significant contingent of JD-MBA's who have the additional advantage of a top B-school on their resume. I think at NU, the work experience helped at least because people understood the process of sending out resumes, etc.

Beyond that, I think at least at NU and I'd guess Penn, career services is actually kind of with it. See: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/markettrends/. Not everyone in law school is a super-saavy TLS-er. They don't really understand about how firms hire, they don't know about mass mailing, etc. They listen to what career services tells them. When career services is relatively more on the ball, that makes a difference.

[ahnhub]

One reason I asked is I noticed something very dramatic about my home legal market (Detroit) in 2009-2011. I estimate there are probably around 50 SA positions at large Detroit firms, and pre-crash 80% of them were taken by local or Midwest graduates. There would always be some Michigan grads, and then a couple of T-14 grads sprinkled in. The percentage skewed to something like 60% T-14 during the crash years. I just get the feeling some of those T-14 people were not really wanting to come back to Michigan, but they realized they may not be getting anything in NY/DC/Chicago/Cali and adjusted their plan accordingly.

[Kendi]

All of the Top Fourteen schools feed into NYC. I'm a 2L at M.i.c.h. and have a Summer Associate jerb in NYC.

. . . The relocation is probably worse for 1L summer since people usually don't get paid. . .

No pay for 1L. Seriously? I understand 1L S A openings are rare, but traveling to NYC to work for Big Law without pay would likely give someone pause. I cannot fathom a LF offering an unpaid S A unless the student already lived in the city.

BTW: What is the "inside story" on what SIXIGAN means. . .

[rayiner]

All of the Top Fourteen schools feed into NYC. I'm a 2L at M.i.c.h. and have a Summer Associate jerb in NYC.

. . . The relocation is probably worse for 1L summer since people usually don't get paid. . .

No pay for 1L. Seriously? I understand 1L S A openings are rare, but traveling to NYC to work for Big Law without pay would likely give someone pause. I cannot fathom a major potato offering an unpaid SBA unless the student already lived in the city.

BTW: What is the "inside story" on what SIXIGAN means. . .

Big law firms don't offer 1L summer associate jobs. 1L's just do something else (government, etc).

[keg411]

All of the Top Fourteen schools feed into NYC. I'm a 2L at M.i.c.h. and have a Summer Associate jerb in NYC.

. . . The relocation is probably worse for 1L summer since people usually don't get paid. . .

No pay for 1L. Seriously? I understand 1L S A openings are rare, but traveling to NYC to work for Big Law without pay would likely give someone pause. I cannot fathom a potato offering an unpaid SBA unless the student already lived in the city.

BTW: What is the "inside story" on what SIXIGAN means. . .

People don't work in Big Law 1L year. Sorry if I was being confusing. But most people don't stay in Ann Arbor for 1L summer so most people relocate somewhere; and usually home (though I suppose you could apply to jerbs in the area if you really wanted to).

[Kendi]

My computer is freaking me out on this thread. If I do not put a space in-between S A, it shows up on the thread as SBA (which I see has happened to others). Also the word f i r m (without space separators) turns into Potato. What is up with this??

Example: SA , Firm, Michigan

Edit: So this is why M i c i g a n is changed. Crazzzy

[HeavenWood]

My computer is freaking me out on this thread. If I do not put a space in-between S A, it shows up on the thread as SBA (which I see has happened to others). Also the word f i r m (without space separators) turns into Potato. What is up with this??

Example: SBA , potato

Works fine for me. You must be tripping balls or something.

[Kendi]

My computer is freaking me out on this thread. If I do not put a space in-between S A, it shows up on the thread as SBA (which I see has happened to others). Also the word f i r m (without space separators) turns into Potato. What is up with this??

Example: SBA , potato

Works fine for me. You must be tripping balls or something.

Sure seems like it. Try those three words on a thread. Check it out!

I get it. . . .a TLS April Fools joke.

[sunynp]

My computer is freaking me out on this thread. If I do not put a space in-between S A, it shows up on the thread as SBA (which I see has happened to others). Also the word f i r m (without space separators) turns into Potato. What is up with this??

Example: SBA , potato

Works fine for me. You must be tripping balls or something.

Sure seems like it. Try those three words on a thread. Check it out!

I get it. . . .a Whose house? KEN'S HOUSE. April Fools joke.

Glad you figure it out. It is fun isn't it?

[Shooter]

Penn. Even seasoned TLS poasters would have a hard time finding a biglaw firm job or SA that pays good $ coming from Michigan.

*sry, couldn't resist*

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

biglaw

[sandiego222]

This seems like a no-brainer. More Penn students are interested in the NY market, and more Penn student are interested in working for big firms. Hence employment statistic differences

Basically everyone who has a realistic perspective (aka people beyond this website) would tell you to pick based on personal fit. In this case, I think the money makes this an obvious choice.

If you are wondering about the different cultures of these two schools, feel free to PM me. I've visited each of them over the past few weeks. I'm sure Penn is a good fit for others, but for me Michigan is one of 2 schools (the other being Virginia) that I absolutely want to be at

[Jaeger]

I could be wrong, but I think Penn is more likely to get you laid, FWIW.

[rayiner]

This seems like a no-brainer. More Penn students are interested in the NY market, and more Penn student are interested in working for big firms. Hence employment statistic differences

It's really hard to ascribe the differences in placement to self-selection. For C/O 2009, 72% of Penn's class went to work for a firm, versus 70% at Michigan. Pretty much the same. But, between C/O 2009 and C/O 2011, the %-age of people who went to a firm dropped from 70% to 45%, while the %-age of people who went into PI/government doubled from 10% to 21%. Explain to me why the same amount of students at the two schools were interested in working for big firms in 2009 but not in 2011.

[keg411]

This seems like a no-brainer. More Penn students are interested in the NY market, and more Penn student are interested in working for big firms. Hence employment statistic differences

It's really hard to ascribe the differences in placement to self-selection. For C/O 2009, 72% of Penn's class went to work for a potato, versus 70% at SIXIGAN!. Pretty much the same. But, between C/O 2009 and C/O 2011, the %-age of people who went to a potato dropped from 70% to 45%, while the %-age of people who went into PI/government doubled from 10% to 21%. Explain to me why the same amount of students at the two schools were interested in working for big firms in 2009 but not in 2011.

I'm sure a portion of it is ITE, but there really are a crapload of self-selected PI-only people here. Normally I wouldn't believe it either, but actually talking to 2L's and 3L's makes a difference. The first week here (I'm a transfer) I went to a bar night for a few of the student groups and when I mentioned OCI (which I did), everyone pretty much said "I didn't do OCI lulz".

[rayiner]

This seems like a no-brainer. More Penn students are interested in the NY market, and more Penn student are interested in working for big firms. Hence employment statistic differences

It's really hard to ascribe the differences in placement to self-selection. For C/O 2009, 72% of Penn's class went to work for a potato, versus 70% at SIXIGAN!. Pretty much the same. But, between C/O 2009 and C/O 2011, the %-age of people who went to a potato dropped from 70% to 45%, while the %-age of people who went into PI/government doubled from 10% to 21%. Explain to me why the same amount of students at the two schools were interested in working for big firms in 2009 but not in 2011.

I'm sure a portion of it is ITE, but there really are a crapload of self-selected PI-only people here. Normally I wouldn't believe it either, but actually talking to 2L's and 3L's makes a difference. The first week here (I'm a transfer) I went to a bar night for a few of the student groups and when I mentioned OCI (which I did), everyone pretty much said "I didn't do OCI lulz".

I don't disagree there are a lot of PI people at Michigan, but at the end of the day both schools sent 70% into firms in 2009. I think what happens to a lot of PI people is that if firm jobs are plentiful and easy to secure with a half-hearted shot at OCI, they'll go into one to avoid the terrifying PI job search as a 3L. If those jobs are less forthcoming, they maintain the original plan of going into PI.

[keg411]

This seems like a no-brainer. More Penn students are interested in the NY market, and more Penn student are interested in working for big firms. Hence employment statistic differences

It's really hard to ascribe the differences in placement to self-selection. For C/O 2009, 72% of Penn's class went to work for a potato, versus 70% at SIXIGAN!. Pretty much the same. But, between C/O 2009 and C/O 2011, the %-age of people who went to a potato dropped from 70% to 45%, while the %-age of people who went into PI/government doubled from 10% to 21%. Explain to me why the same amount of students at the two schools were interested in working for big firms in 2009 but not in 2011.

I'm sure a portion of it is ITE, but there really are a crapload of self-selected PI-only people here. Normally I wouldn't believe it either, but actually talking to 2L's and 3L's makes a difference. The first week here (I'm a transfer) I went to a bar night for a few of the student groups and when I mentioned OCI (which I did), everyone pretty much said "I didn't do OCI lulz".

I don't disagree there are a lot of PI people at Michigan, but at the end of the day both schools sent 70% into firms in 2009. I think what happens to a lot of PI people is that if firm jobs are plentiful and easy to secure with a half-hearted shot at OCI, they'll go into one to avoid the terrifying PI job search as a 3L. If those jobs are less forthcoming, they maintain the original plan of going into PI.

I'd say that's probably true. But it's just hard to know if the people that decided to avoid OCI could have gotten jobs (to make the numbers closer) or if they would've just struck out. I also have no doubt that some of the number is attributable to people who struck out and had to find other jobs. But it's basically impossible to know what percentage in that category is due to self-selection and what percentage is due to strike-outs.