Penn State v. Seton Hall Forum

[ganggreen]

What do you want to do with your JD? If the answer is big law or you have no work experience to help you network, Seton Hall is still a worse option than retaking.

I've given it a lot of thought and I don't think biglaw is for me -- if that was the case, my deposit would probably be in at UVA. I'd be perfectly happy working at a small or medium-size firm (and NJ would be fine, since I'm from there).

Choosing a law school is all about minimizing risk. I don't tell people to avoid these types of schools because of elitism or something like that. If these types of schools were cheap then they would be all right options. So if you are from the area and you have a full ride then go for it. Just make sure you understand your school's limitations and make sure you network. Unless you are in the very top of your class getting a job will take some leg work. Good luck.

Thanks. And I realize that coming straight out of undergrad, it's much tougher to network. An advantage to NJ is that I have lots of family/friend connections that could open doors and make networking easier.

And it's not like I've made up my mind. Once BC accepts me, I'm going to negotiate aggressively. I'm not afraid to say something like "Going to the same university for undergrad and law school would affect my contributions to the school as an alumni" blah blah blah. What have I got to lose?

[Grizz]

I'm not going to say something retarded like "I'm in at a T14 so I'll be at the top at my class at SH", but if I can do top 2% at a fairly competitive undergrad, I don't see why I can't do top 15% at Seton Hall Law...

Looks like we got us a special snowflake!

But if you're goin for 0 debt, that's solid.

[timbs4339]

Wow romo really sees the "light now." I remember he was really defensive for me criticizing his decision for attending WUSTL instead of Cornell.

Ice: are you really that ignorant or are you just a troll? Romo is just trying to look out for other people. Stop blasting romo. Go look at some midlaw/biglaw firms in NJ/NY/PA and tell me how many SH or PINN state grads you see. Also let me know if you see ANY associates that aren't Magna cum laude + LR from those schools. Secondly, check NALP for the list of firms that recruit from SH. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Bottom line: is it impossible to get a good job from SH, no. Are the odds HEAVILY stacked against you? YES. If you want to go, just go for 1 year and be prepared to drop out if you are not in the top 15% or 10%. 20-30k for a 10% chance at a good career isn't the worst odds in the world... especially if you majored in english, history, poly sci or psychology.

Romo: i think we should just stop. No one really listens anyways.... there are just too many of them to save....

Hey now, I still love WUSTL. I am admittedly more down about law school in general than I was a year or two ago, but comparing the decision to go to WUSTL with a huge scholarship to the decision of someone to go to Seton Hall (presumably without much of a scholarship?) isn't really a fair comparison. I will have less than half the debt I'd have taken on at Cornell, so I'm content. That said, WUSTL at sticker... not a good idea.

You are right though, people just don't listen. The resounding consensus on TLS among students and alumni is that going to schools like Seton Hall is a bad idea, but the 0Ls gang up on us and tell us we're wrong. It's frustrating.

Well, what's your opinion on full ride Seton Hall + commute from home, graduate with zero debt (I'm pretty debt-averse)? Many connections in NJ. You mention the outrageous price of SH, but what if you eliminate that factor?

I'm not going to say something retarded like "I'm in at a T14 so I'll be at the top at my class at SH", but if I can do top 2% at a fairly competitive undergrad, I don't see why I can't do top 15% at Seton Hall Law...

(apologies to the OP)

That is a huge assumption. Law school grading is so random and the competition so fierce that to count on being in the top 25%, even top 1/3, is ridiculous. Especially as a 1L who has never taken a single exam. Your first semester is a crapshoot. A mediocre performance Fall 1L will make it extremely hard to come back for Spring 1L.

It's still worth it to try (as you only lose one year and might still have a chance at something decent). But you need to be prepared to drop out before 2L if you do not meet the stip. Explaining to non-law employers why you spent 1 year in law school and then decided it wasn't for you is much easier than explaining why you spent 3 years.

[bobbyh1919]

I'm in a very similar position to Ganggreen (in at UVA, full ride offer from Seton Hall, not committed to big law, would like to practice in NJ/northeast, top of my graduating class in undergrad) but am taking a totally different approach. People I ask seem to indicate that law exams and grading, while far from being a total crap shoot, often seem random. I simply can't imagine working so hard in UG, studying so hard for the LSAT, working my tail off 1L, and then finding out that a set of exams didn't go my way and finding myself at median (or worse). I personally have decided to go the T-14 route because I can get by being at median at T-14, whereas I would never want to be median at Seton Hall.

Even though I'm taking a different approach, I think you're potentially making a fine decision. I just wanted to share another viewpoint as someone who is in a very similar boat.

[romothesavior]

Law school grading isn't "random." Sometimes in individual classes, it is arbitrary. But over the course of law school, it isn't random.

There are reasons why people get the grades they do. But the problem is, you can't really gauge your chances at doing well on them before you get there, because you can't really know how smart you are, hard working you are, good at LS exams you are (biggest factor in grades is this one, IMO), etc. relative to your peers until you get there. Basing a decision on law school based on an assumption like how you will do on exams is just not smart.

[paratactical]

Hey vanillafucktard-

If your career gives you authority, you can snort my fucking taint, cause I spent seven years as a V10 lead paralegal in NYC, so you're less than 1/10th as correct as me. And going to Steton Hall is a fate that should be reserved for people with cavernous, douche-sucking anuses like yourself.

[iceicebaby]

Hey vanillafucktard-

If your career gives you authority, you can snort my fucking taint, cause I spent seven years as a V10 lead paralegal in NYC, so you're less than 1/10th as correct as me. And going to Steton Hall is a fate that should be reserved for people with cavernous, douche-sucking anuses like yourself.

Not worth it.

[flem]

Hey vanillafucktard-

If your career gives you authority, you can snort my fucking taint, cause I spent seven years as a V10 lead paralegal in NYC, so you're less than 1/10th as correct as me. And going to Steton Hall is a fate that should be reserved for people with cavernous, douche-sucking anuses like yourself.

This thread is extremely entertaining.

[20130312]

Hey vanillafucktard-

If your career gives you authority, you can snort my fucking taint, cause I spent seven years as a V10 lead paralegal in NYC, so you're less than 1/10th as correct as me. And going to Steton Hall is a fate that should be reserved for people with cavernous, douche-sucking anuses like yourself.

Never said anything about having authority. What I can say is that you're clearly the biggest [homophobic language redacted] on TLS. 30,000 posts? Are you fucking real? Man, idiots just seem to come out of the woodwork on this website the second you defend the decision to go to a TT. At least Romo makes good arguments and gives good advice while you contribute nothing at all but your [homophobic language redacted] avatar. Fucking pussy.

Funny because girl.

[flem]

Hey vanillafucktard-

If your career gives you authority, you can snort my fucking taint, cause I spent seven years as a V10 lead paralegal in NYC, so you're less than 1/10th as correct as me. And going to Steton Hall is a fate that should be reserved for people with cavernous, douche-sucking anuses like yourself.

Never said anything about having authority. What I can say is that you're clearly the biggest [homophobic language redacted] on TLS. 30,000 posts? Are you fucking real? Man, idiots just seem to come out of the woodwork on this website the second you defend the decision to go to a TT. At least Romo makes good arguments and gives good advice while you contribute nothing at all but your [homophobic language redacted] avatar. Fucking pussy.

--ImageRemoved--

[paratactical]

Hey vanillafucktard-

If your career gives you authority, you can snort my fucking taint, cause I spent seven years as a V10 lead paralegal in NYC, so you're less than 1/10th as correct as me. And going to Steton Hall is a fate that should be reserved for people with cavernous, douche-sucking anuses like yourself.

Never said anything about having authority. What I can say is that you're clearly the biggest [homophobic language redacted] on TLS. 30,000 posts? Are you fucking real? Man, idiots just seem to come out of the woodwork on this website the second you defend the decision to go to a TT. At least Romo makes good arguments and gives good advice while you contribute nothing at all but your [homophobic language redacted] avatar. Fucking pussy.

You cited your career in order to bolster your position.

Also, pretty sure you've got some banable hate speech in that post right there.

[paratactical]

Also

Subject: Penn State v. Seton Hall

Hey vanillafucktard-

If your career gives you authority, you can snort my fucking taint, cause I spent seven years as a V10 lead paralegal in NYC, so you're less than 1/10th as correct as me. And going to Steton Hall is a fate that should be reserved for people with cavernous, douche-sucking anuses like yourself.

Literally no one fucking cares. You're a low life piece of shit that has 30,000 posts. Congrats, you're the biggest douche on TLS, and that's a tough honor to achieve!

[iceicebaby]

Right, okay. Continue to bolster that post count with inane bullshit designed to get people kicked off. Moron.

And who posts PMs? You're a disgrace.

[barneytrouble]

Also

Subject: Penn State v. Seton Hall

Hey vanillafucktard-

If your career gives you authority, you can snort my fucking taint, cause I spent seven years as a V10 lead paralegal in NYC, so you're less than 1/10th as correct as me. And going to Steton Hall is a fate that should be reserved for people with cavernous, douche-sucking anuses like yourself.

Literally no one fucking cares. You're a low life piece of shit that has 30,000 posts. Congrats, you're the biggest douche on TLS, and that's a tough honor to achieve!

hahaha he sent me hateful PMs as well. some people are just pathetic. let him get it all out now though before he ruins his life. it's the least we can do if he isn't going to listen and be an idiot about it

[20130312]

Right, okay. Continue to bolster that post count with inane bullshit designed to get people kicked off. Moron.

And who posts PMs? You're a disgrace.

[paratactical]

Right, okay. Continue to bolster that post count with inane bullshit designed to get people kicked off. Moron.

And who posts PMs? You're a disgrace.

I'm still not sure what my post count has to do with anything. I mean, if you'd worked at an actually prestigious firm billing serious hours, you'd have more posts, too. And I never encouraged you to use offensive slurs for homosexuality. You're just one of those people who finds masculinity in flopping for penalties and decides all rainbows are infected with tehgayz!

[iceicebaby]

Right, okay. Continue to bolster that post count with inane bullshit designed to get people kicked off. Moron.

And who posts PMs? You're a disgrace.

I'm still not sure what my post count has to do with anything. I mean, if you'd worked at an actually prestigious firm billing serious hours, you'd have more posts, too. And I never encouraged you to use offensive slurs for homosexuality. You're just one of those people who finds masculinity in flopping for penalties and decides all rainbows are infected with tehgayz!

Just stop. You're completely just trying to stir up problems where there are none. If you're going to post on the topic, then do so.

[vanwinkle]

EVERYONE, BEHAVE.

Thread will unlock in 5 minutes, and the banhammer falls on anyone who keeps this shit up.

Edit: Unlocked, but I'm watching. And "iceicebaby" gets time to chill.

[quiver]

Wow romo really sees the "light now." I remember he was really defensive for me criticizing his decision for attending WUSTL instead of Cornell.

Ice: are you really that ignorant or are you just a troll? Romo is just trying to look out for other people. Stop blasting romo. Go look at some midlaw/biglaw firms in NJ/NY/PA and tell me how many SH or PINN state grads you see. Also let me know if you see ANY associates that aren't Magna cum laude + LR from those schools. Secondly, check NALP for the list of firms that recruit from SH. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Bottom line: is it impossible to get a good job from SH, no. Are the odds HEAVILY stacked against you? YES. If you want to go, just go for 1 year and be prepared to drop out if you are not in the top 15% or 10%. 20-30k for a 10% chance at a good career isn't the worst odds in the world... especially if you majored in english, history, poly sci or psychology.

Romo: i think we should just stop. No one really listens anyways.... there are just too many of them to save....

Hey now, I still love WUSTL. I am admittedly more down about law school in general than I was a year or two ago, but comparing the decision to go to WUSTL with a huge scholarship to the decision of someone to go to Seton Hall (presumably without much of a scholarship?) isn't really a fair comparison. I will have less than half the debt I'd have taken on at Cornell, so I'm content. That said, WUSTL at sticker... not a good idea.

You are right though, people just don't listen. The resounding consensus on TLS among students and alumni is that going to schools like Seton Hall is a bad idea, but the 0Ls gang up on us and tell us we're wrong. It's frustrating.

Well, what's your opinion on full ride Seton Hall + commute from home, graduate with zero debt (I'm pretty debt-averse)? Many connections in NJ. You mention the outrageous price of SH, but what if you eliminate that factor?

I'm not going to say something retarded like "I'm in at a T14 so I'll be at the top at my class at SH", but if I can do top 2% at a fairly competitive undergrad, I don't see why I can't do top 15% at Seton Hall Law...

(apologies to the OP)

That is a huge assumption. Law school grading is so random and the competition so fierce that to count on being in the top 25%, even top 1/3, is ridiculous. Especially as a 1L who has never taken a single exam. Your first semester is a crapshoot. A mediocre performance Fall 1L will make it extremely hard to come back for Spring 1L.

It's still worth it to try (as you only lose one year and might still have a chance at something decent). But you need to be prepared to drop out before 2L if you do not meet the stip. Explaining to non-law employers why you spent 1 year in law school and then decided it wasn't for you is much easier than explaining why you spent 3 years.

I'm in a very similar position to Ganggreen (in at UVA, full ride offer from Seton Hall, not committed to big law, would like to practice in NJ/northeast, top of my graduating class in undergrad) but am taking a totally different approach. People I ask seem to indicate that law exams and grading, while far from being a total crap shoot, often seem random. I simply can't imagine working so hard in UG, studying so hard for the LSAT, working my tail off 1L, and then finding out that a set of exams didn't go my way and finding myself at median (or worse). I personally have decided to go the T-14 route because I can get by being at median at T-14, whereas I would never want to be median at Seton Hall.

Even though I'm taking a different approach, I think you're potentially making a fine decision. I just wanted to share another viewpoint as someone who is in a very similar boat.

I know someone who was top 1% of her/his class at a very good undergrad school and in a very competitive program (curved almost like law school) who attended Seton Hall on a very large scholarship...s/he finished her/his 1L year slightly above median. You cannot guarantee that you'll place at the top of your class.

[ganggreen]

I'm in a very similar position to Ganggreen (in at UVA, full ride offer from Seton Hall, not committed to big law, would like to practice in NJ/northeast, top of my graduating class in undergrad) but am taking a totally different approach. People I ask seem to indicate that law exams and grading, while far from being a total crap shoot, often seem random. I simply can't imagine working so hard in UG, studying so hard for the LSAT, working my tail off 1L, and then finding out that a set of exams didn't go my way and finding myself at median (or worse). I personally have decided to go the T-14 route because I can get by being at median at T-14, whereas I would never want to be median at Seton Hall.

Even though I'm taking a different approach, I think you're potentially making a fine decision. I just wanted to share another viewpoint as someone who is in a very similar boat.

I appreciate it -- that's exactly why I made that post, because I'm curious about other people's thought processes, and your situation is very similar to mine. Btw congrats on the scholarship at UVA! I think if I was in your boat with $20/k a year I would be leaning towards the same decision, but sticker is a lot scarier. People talk about the dangers of not finishing in the top 15-20% at Seton Hall, but to me (and again, I'm debt-averse), having almost $230k in loans upon graduation and a crap job (say I finish below median) seems worse. With your scholarship, taking into account interest, that debt figure is probably $65k less.

[keg411]

I appreciate it -- that's exactly why I made that post, because I'm curious about other people's thought processes, and your situation is very similar to mine. Btw congrats on the scholarship at UVA! I think if I was in your boat with $20/k a year I would be leaning towards the same decision, but sticker is a lot scarier. People talk about the dangers of not finishing in the top 15-20% at Seton Hall, but to me (and again, I'm debt-averse), having almost $230k in loans upon graduation and a crap job (say I finish below median) seems worse. With your scholarship, taking into account interest, that debt figure is probably $65k less.

Ganggreen, you say you have some legal connections in NJ. Why not ask their advice? They can probably give you a better idea of what type of people their firms hire. (Also, if you have any further questions, PM me. I started at a NJ school for no debt and transferred to Michigan and have a pretty good pulse on the differences between the NJ schools and T10's in terms of hiring AND in terms of NJ hiring.)

Also, romo: I don't know if you're still posting here, but please stop posting uninformed opinions on NJ state trial court clerkships. Yes, people end up in "shitlaw" from them, but most people wind up employed and the outcomes tend to be far, far, far better from those jobs then from just being unemployed straight out of school and waiting to pass the bar before you have anything on your resume. Pretty much every attorney I know respects those jobs -- they aren't going to get you BigLaw, but they can have pretty solid employment outcomes.

[Easy-E]

Also, romo: I don't know if you're still posting here, but please stop posting uninformed opinions on NJ state trial court clerkships. Yes, people end up in "shitlaw" from them, but most people wind up employed and the outcomes tend to be far, far, far better from those jobs then from just being unemployed straight out of school and waiting to pass the bar before you have anything on your resume. Pretty much every attorney I know respects those jobs -- they aren't going to get you BigLaw, but they can have pretty solid employment outcomes.

What are these pretty solid employment outcomes, and what kind of pay can one expect? I'm not asking this to challenge or be contradictory, I'm curious. I know a lot of Rutgers grads end up in such clerkships, and as an in-stater who could possibly attend for free, I always like to hear what upside there would be to attending.

[bobbyh1919]

I'm in a very similar position to Ganggreen (in at UVA, full ride offer from Seton Hall, not committed to big law, would like to practice in NJ/northeast, top of my graduating class in undergrad) but am taking a totally different approach. People I ask seem to indicate that law exams and grading, while far from being a total crap shoot, often seem random. I simply can't imagine working so hard in UG, studying so hard for the LSAT, working my tail off 1L, and then finding out that a set of exams didn't go my way and finding myself at median (or worse). I personally have decided to go the T-14 route because I can get by being at median at T-14, whereas I would never want to be median at Seton Hall.

Even though I'm taking a different approach, I think you're potentially making a fine decision. I just wanted to share another viewpoint as someone who is in a very similar boat.

I appreciate it -- that's exactly why I made that post, because I'm curious about other people's thought processes, and your situation is very similar to mine. Btw congrats on the scholarship at UVA! I think if I was in your boat with $20/k a year I would be leaning towards the same decision, but sticker is a lot scarier. People talk about the dangers of not finishing in the top 15-20% at Seton Hall, but to me (and again, I'm debt-averse), having almost $230k in loans upon graduation and a crap job (say I finish below median) seems worse. With your scholarship, taking into account interest, that debt figure is probably $65k less.

I hear what you're saying and yes my scholarship definitely makes the decision easier. Considering you got into UVA, I'm sure you could land some scholarship money at higher ranked schools than Seton Hall (BU? BC?). I would definitely explore those options before settling in at Seton Hall.

[keg411]

Also, romo: I don't know if you're still posting here, but please stop posting uninformed opinions on NJ state trial court clerkships. Yes, people end up in "shitlaw" from them, but most people wind up employed and the outcomes tend to be far, far, far better from those jobs then from just being unemployed straight out of school and waiting to pass the bar before you have anything on your resume. Pretty much every attorney I know respects those jobs -- they aren't going to get you BigLaw, but they can have pretty solid employment outcomes.

What are these pretty solid employment outcomes, and what kind of pay can one expect? I'm not asking this to challenge or be contradictory, I'm curious. I know a lot of Rutgers grads end up in such clerkships, and as an in-stater who could possibly attend for free, I always like to hear what upside there would be to attending.

Most of them probably don't pay a lot or are anything glamorous. But they're usually jobs related to whatever the judge is currently doing or has the most experience in. I mean, if you work for a Law Division (Criminal) judge, he/she will probably have the most pull in prosecutor/PD offices (always good to learn what he/she did previously); in Civil, small-midsized firms; in Family Div, firms/gov't work related to family law; etc.

The highest upside is obviously Appellate or State Supreme, but most of those people are at the very very very top of the class, on LR and got BigLaw SA's their 2L year.