Detailed Employment Stats Forum

[NYC Law]

My bottom line is you said 2-3%. Optimal/Normal inflation is 3%. Less than or equal to =/= leaps and bounds above.
The top paid professors don't even break 200k last time I checked. I mean, for high profile professors that teach and publish and have close to 800 pages worth of exams to grade any given semester when they could have just stuck to the biglaw path and made more, the pay isn't really that high. I don't know what administrators are paid. The majority of the money just goes to fund the parent university.

Not really. I imagine being a law professor is a pretty cushy job.

--LinkRemoved--

In the 2010-2011 school year, U-M’s highest-paid employee is Law School Professor Mark D. Rosenbaum—taking in an impressive $805,092 per year. Rosenbaum has been teaching at U-M since 1993 and is the current legal director of the ACLU in Los Angeles. He has an impressive legal track record, having argued a number of cases before the U.S. Supreme Court.

The next two highest-paid employees are also Law School professors. Karl E. Lutz and Alison E. Hirschel each earn substantial salaries of $774,671 and $738, 420, respectively. In fact, twelve of the top twenty earners are affiliated with the Law School.

2006 law salaries at UVA and UC system
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... w_pro.html

Median at Harvard from a 2007 survey was 241k
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2009 survey shows median salary of professors at schools like Emory, Minnesota are in excess of 200k.
http://www.saltlaw.org/userfiles/SALT_s ... y_2009.pdf
____________

And you're right, it does seem like (at least for Michigan) tuition increases are way above inflation:
- 10% increase from 2006-2007 to 2007-2008, 8% increase the next year. And in years previous we see similar rates of increase.
http://www.law.umich.edu/historyandtrad ... istory.pdf

I was honestly expecting something smaller

Yeah I was off, just double checked. At some point over the semester I looked it up and there was a prawfsblawg entry with salaries and they were all pretty low, but now I can't even find it anymore.

-Though the average salary is still just under 200k overall

[apeopleshistory]

.

[PakiGuy87]

To the OP: Excellent work on this thread! I like the initiative!

I'm not sure if this recent trend in schools reporting data is the result of ABA requirements or perhaps something else but I think it is a welcome (and very useful) change!

To the Moderators: If this thread continues to grow with more school employment data, would you please "sticky" it?

I believe that access to current employment data as well as the ability to interpret it should be a top priority of any aspiring law school applicant. It would be a shame if such a great resource gets buried underneath other good but ultimately, less beneficial threads.

[Campagnolo]

TL;DR UCLA's employment statistics are completely misleading, and I'm phoning up the school shortly. Please call all the schools you are considering and report back what you find.

I'm trying now to sort out my options and figure out where I should attend school. I have slept maybe 4 hours the last 2 days because I am so stressed out about the debt.

UCLA is one of my options. I was reviewing the scholarship information (http://www.law.ucla.edu/career-services ... stics.aspx). It didn't make me feel any better. In fact, I want to barf. I plan on calling the Career Services Office soon to see if they will give me more detailed information. I suggest everyone on here do the same to all the schools you are considering attending.

The most troubling piece of the UCLA data is that you never know what constitutes the denominator in any of the calculations they give. Most egregiously, the Employment figures are calculated using both full- and part-time positions (and I presume temporary and school-funded positions as well), but the salary calculations are based on ONLY graduates working full-time (236 reported salaries).

This is all hugely distorting of what is actually going on. How are we supposed to make a rational decision based on where we want to go?

I'm calling. I suggest you all do the same. If I find anything out, I will post it here.

/rant.

[bdubs]

I find it slightly odd that Columbia and Stanford are the two schools in the T14 who now have the least detailed employment statistics available. These two schools have had reputations among the best for law firm employment of any in the country. Why the hesitancy to release data they already have?

[Campagnolo]

Because reputation =/= truth.

[Ialdabaoth]

University of Houston

--LinkRemoved--

Click on the snapshot spreadsheet for the detailed information.

Thanks!

[Ialdabaoth]

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/12/the-univ ... llow-suit/

The above ATL article discusses how Yale and Chicago now publish legitimate, detailed employment data on their websites. Today, I read that UVA also makes these statistics available.

Does anyone have a list of all T14 (and beyond if possible) schools that do likewise? If not, maybe we could make this a research/compilation thread. Here are the links I've compiled so far:

Yale - http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm
Harvard - I can't find anything similar.
Stanford - http://www.law.stanford.edu/experience/ ... tatistics/ (terrible detail and only up to '08)
Chicago - http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata
NYU - http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
Michigan - http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx
Penn - http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html (very good, but not as detailed on salary percentiles)
UVA - http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm
Duke - http://www.law.duke.edu/career/resources/facts (not as detailed)
NU - http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/
Cornell - http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm (not as detailed)

BU - http://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/caree ... stats.html
Cincinnati - --LinkRemoved-- (clearly differentiates full- and part-time and salary survey respondents)

UC Hastings has pretty detailed stats, probably as detailed as I've seen anywhere

--LinkRemoved--

differentiates between full time, part time, Bar required, JD preferred, firm sizes etc

These are really good. Thanks!

[Ialdabaoth]

http://www.law.msu.edu/career/placement-rates.html

Michigan State recently put this up, and the level of detail seems comparable to the other sites. Under a quarter of grads reporting salary is awful, though.

Thanks! And wow, that is rough salary response. I guess that's (partly) why their recruiting intensity is off the charts, haha.

[Ialdabaoth]

University of Iowa:
http://www.law.uiowa.edu/about/statisti ... oymentdata

Detailed class of 2010
http://www.law.uiowa.edu/documents/stats_CSO_feb11.pdf

Thanks! These are pretty good, but I didn't see a full/part time distinction. Am I missing it?

[ganggreen]

BC

http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/schools/la ... _full.html

[Ialdabaoth]

BC

http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/schools/la ... _full.html

Thanks!

[Ialdabaoth]

To the OP: Excellent work on this thread! I like the initiative!

I'm not sure if this recent trend in schools reporting data is the result of ABA requirements or perhaps something else but I think it is a welcome (and very useful) change!

To the Moderators: If this thread continues to grow with more school employment data, would you please "sticky" it?

I believe that access to current employment data as well as the ability to interpret it should be a top priority of any aspiring law school applicant. It would be a shame if such a great resource gets buried underneath other good but ultimately, less beneficial threads.

Thanks! I would also like to see this thread stickied if the moderators think that would be alright.

[apeopleshistory]

.

[Ialdabaoth]

I find it slightly odd that Columbia and Stanford are the two schools in the T14 who now have the least detailed employment statistics available. These two schools have had reputations among the best for law firm employment of any in the country. Why the hesitancy to release data they already have?

Stanford has released new employment data. It's better than what was previously available but still not on par with other schools' releases.

I don't know what the deal with Columbia (and Harvard) is. Has anyone been able to find better employment data for them?

[ahnhub]

I was comparing the NLJ 250 placement statistics with school's self-reported numbers and they don't seem to add up.

EX: NYU reports 66% of its 2009 graduates found work in firms of at least 250 lawyers. Yet the NLJ reported NYU c/o 2009 sent just 50% of its graduates to NLJ 250 firms. I believe the cut-off for the NLJ 250 is around 170 lawyers. Am I missing something?

[Flappy Scribbleneck]

I was comparing the NLJ 250 placement statistics with school's self-reported numbers and they don't seem to add up.

EX: NYU reports 66% of its 2009 graduates found work in firms of at least 250 lawyers. Yet the NLJ reported NYU c/o 2009 sent just 50% of its graduates to NLJ 250 firms. I believe the cut-off for the NLJ 250 is around 170 lawyers. Am I missing something?

This sounds like an LR problem.

[Redamon1]

Personally, I would really like to see Berkeley's stats, but I can't find anything similar on their website.

Berkeley data for c/o 2010:
--LinkRemoved--

Thanks for the initiative OP!

[Ialdabaoth]

Personally, I would really like to see Berkeley's stats, but I can't find anything similar on their website.

Berkeley data for c/o 2010:
--LinkRemoved--

Thanks for the initiative OP!

Thanks so much! I had heard they weren't publishing this until February, so it's a pleasant surprise to have it now.

Also, this is an excellent collection of data--full-time versus part-time, permanent versus temporary, etc.

[Ialdabaoth]

Also, I have another question related to these employment statistics. I'm sure the answer is around somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it. Generally, what size firms 501+, 251 to 500, etc. pay that elusive $160k (or 1xx, depending on market) first-year associate salary?

[bdubs]

Also, I have another question related to these employment statistics. I'm sure the answer is around somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it. Generally, what size firms 501+, 251 to 500, etc. pay that elusive $160k (or 1xx, depending on market) first-year associate salary?

No magic number for paying "market" big law salary, but generally the vast majority of firms >200 tend to pay market or close to it (either 145k or 160k here in Chicago). There are boutiques with 5 attorneys that pay market or better though (i know of a few who recruit from my school with <50 that pay market). Not sure you can make a whole lot out of the firm size categories.

[barneytrouble]

Also, I have another question related to these employment statistics. I'm sure the answer is around somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it. Generally, what size firms 501+, 251 to 500, etc. pay that elusive $160k (or 1xx, depending on market) first-year associate salary?

No magic number for paying "market" big law salary, but generally the vast majority of firms >200 tend to pay market or close to it (either 145k or 160k here in Chicago). There are boutiques with 5 attorneys that pay market or better though (i know of a few who recruit from my school with <50 that pay market). Not sure you can make a whole lot out of the firm size categories.

Also, I have another question related to these employment statistics. I'm sure the answer is around somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it. Generally, what size firms 501+, 251 to 500, etc. pay that elusive $160k (or 1xx, depending on market) first-year associate salary?

No magic number for paying "market" big law salary, but generally the vast majority of firms >200 tend to pay market or close to it (either 145k or 160k here in Chicago). There are boutiques with 5 attorneys that pay market or better though (i know of a few who recruit from my school with <50 that pay market). Not sure you can make a whole lot out of the firm size categories.

I've done a lot of back of the envelope calculations with all of these new employment statistics that have been popping up, and for the t14 schools at least, the cutoff for "biglaw" market pay seems to be at the 51-100 range. As in, those kids are getting it, and people at firms below that threshold generally are not.

Based on some rough number crunching it seems that a lot of the 51-100 firms are in super-secondary markets; Nashville or StL for example. While there are certainly some outlier firms, these are places where the 51-100 size firms generally are paying 110-135k. So they won't be popping up on vault or NLJ, but they will be making a decent enough salary wherever they end up to service the loans.

Looking at Northwestern's for example, they have 163 graduates reporting between 100k and 160k.
$100,000 - $119,999
10
$120,000 - $139,999
10
$140,000 - $159,999
10
$160,000+
133

Adding up the numbers from 51-100 through 500+ gives us 157 students.
51-100
8
101-250
13
251-500
21
501+
115

So throw in a few kids working at small boutiques and voila. It is obviously not perfect and some students are bound to cross over each way, but this seems to be a semi reliable metric.

[r6_philly]

It's amazing CLS can't figure out how to make a proper pie chart. The 1L summer chart is a complete FAIL.

Or did they do it on purpose?

[iamrobk]

It's amazing CLS can't figure out how to make a proper pie chart. The 1L summer chart is a complete FAIL.

Or did they do it on purpose?

Hahaha! Wow. I also like how they made them all a really low resolution and then scaled them up so they all look like crap anyway.

[Ialdabaoth]

Thanks for the salary info. Very helpful!