Vandy (free if 10 hrs work/wk, Penn, GULC, NWestern, UT ($$) Forum

[Veyron]

Because of your interest in taking business courses, Northwestern is my top pick. Wait for NU's financial package before deciding.

Agree with this. This thread is two or three weeks too early.

Wait a minute, NU over Penn for business courses, seriously. Wharton. . . certificate in business and Public Policy/JDMBA programs/open cross registration. . . are you all MAD

Also, Penn's LRAP is probably good for 140k if you do the PI route.

[drylo]

Thanks for the lengthy, well thought out advice. It's interesting that yuo think going to other schools over Vandy do not expand my mobility. I definitely could see how going to Penn over Vandy wouldn't help me get a job in, say, Denver, but UColorado's scholarship was decidely underwhelming. How about this: does attending Penn or Georgetown over Vandy increase my ability to get a job within the regions you mentioned enough to warrant considering attending over Vanderbilt?

I'm not 100% sure what regions you are talking about (because I mentioned so many). I am assuming you meant "Denver, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Columbus, etc." Correct me if I am wrong.

For those cities, I really don't think either Penn or Georgetown helps you at all, probably. Like I said, I really don't even think Harvard helps. In those markets, it doesn't seem like the firms care so much about hiring students from the highest-ranked schools as they do about other things. I'm going to try to explain, as best as I can surmise.

For one thing, in general, law school grades matter a lot more than where you went to school. This statement is not true in every situation (e.g., the top graduate from Michigan State isn't likely to get hired into academia before your average Yalie), but it is more true than you might think in most situations.

Another thing is that firms tend to want to know that you want to practice (1) in that market and (2) at that firm. If you don't want to (or you would rather be somewhere else), they can hire an equally capable person who does want to, and it seems that most would really prefer to do that. For some reason (that I don't completely understand), firms are generally unbelievably reluctant (bordering on "totally unwilling") to hire somebody who has not at least lived in the city before (or is married to someone who has).

Finally, a lot of the country is not obsessed with prestige like the East Coast and TLS maybe are. Some of these firms just want good people--smart, good fit with the firm, want to be there, etc. They are satisfied that you are smart if you are at/near the top of your law school class, not because you went to a law school with slightly more prestige. (This is getting back to the grades point--sorry.)

For those reasons, I think a student who graduates in the top 5% at U of Denver and is a Colorado native is really in an almost unbeatable position going into OCI. Maybe another Colorado native in the top 5% at Penn would be in a better position, but the bottom line is that both of those students are poised for a great offers at Denver firms. If a Nashville native is top 10% at Penn, you probably have no chance in the Denver market against the top 5% guy at Denver.

It's the same here in Nashville. The firms here love top Vandy people. If you are at the top of the class at a higher-ranked school and have good ties to Nashville, then yeah, you could get a job here (even though you probably wouldn't be able to get it through OCI at most schools). But don't count on being median at Penn and getting a job in Nashville. Similarly, you would have zero chance of getting a job in Nashville if you were not from here (and you didn't have a spouse from here) but you were top 10% at Penn.

[Edited to add: There is always that anecdotal exception. I'm sure somebody on TLS knows somebody at Penn or HLS or somewhere who got a job in a secondary market with no ties--like my buddy did in Charlotte. But my point is that it would be a mistake to think that going to a higher-ranked school will make up for not having ties in a market that pays less than $140k.]

[Veyron]

^ Yah, ties are key to secondary markets even from the very best schools. CA and DC however, are not really secondary markets, it isn't overly hard to see firms in these cities.

That being said, you are severely underestimating what a T-10 can do for you in a secondary market if you DO have ties.

[drylo]

^ Yah, ties are key to secondary markets even from the very best schools. CA and DC however, are not really secondary markets, it isn't overly hard to see firms in these cities.

That being said, you are severely underestimating what a T-10 can do for you in a secondary market if you DO have ties.

Yeah, I said LA, SF, and DC were primary.

I am not underestimating what a T-10 can do for you in Nashville if you have ties. You may have had a different experience in a different market, and I would defer to you in that particular market. I did say that top 10% at Penn is better than top 10% at Denver. And top 25% (or something like that) at Penn is probably equal to top 10% at Denver. But we are getting side-tracked... the question was whether Penn gives you a better chance than Vandy to break into a secondary market where you have no ties, and the answer is no.

[Veyron]

^ Yah, ties are key to secondary markets even from the very best schools. CA and DC however, are not really secondary markets, it isn't overly hard to see firms in these cities.

That being said, you are severely underestimating what a T-10 can do for you in a secondary market if you DO have ties.

Yeah, I said LA, SF, and DC were primary.

I am not underestimating what a T-10 can do for you in Nashville if you have ties. You may have had a different experience in a different market, and I would defer to you in that particular market. I did say that top 10% at Penn is better than top 10% at Denver. And top 25% (or something like that) at Penn is probably equal to top 10% at Denver. But we are getting side-tracked... the question was whether Penn gives you a better chance than Vandy to break into a secondary market where you have no ties, and the answer is no.

I'll defer to you on your market but in my secondary market, Penn gets you the T-10/14 hiring cutoff (top 1/2) and vandy gets you only a slightly more lenient cutoff than the local T-1 (top 5-15%). Trust me, its easier to be top 1/2 at penn than top 20% at vandy.

[Tarheel10]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was accepting your judgment that secondary markets with no ties was likely not going to happen regardless of the school. I was asking about DC, LA, NY, Atlanta, Nashville, North Carolina, and Washington - places you said either would probably get me.

Veyron, given my stated preferences - interest in business, PI, policy, etc, open as far as market goes - which would you take? Drylo, I'm assuming you think Vandy all the way.

Unless Northwestern offers me something good, I'm going to knock them off because, as Veyron says, it seems like Penn offers similar opportunities, only better ones.

I'm also going to knock UW off because, as much as I'd love to go to school there, its definitely not worth $100k more than Vandy.

Part of me just really wants to get out of dodge, and I love Georgetown's curriculum B and location, Texas's women and Austin culture, and Penn's superior placement and business school, so it comes down to those four right now: Penn, Georgetown, Texas, and Vandy.

I'm thinking Vandy, though.

[drylo]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was accepting your judgment that secondary markets with no ties was likely not going to happen regardless of the school. I was asking about DC, LA, NY, Atlanta, Nashville, North Carolina, and Washington - places you said either would probably get me.

Veyron, given my stated preferences - interest in business, PI, policy, etc, open as far as market goes - which would you take? Drylo, I'm assuming you think Vandy all the way.

Part of me just really wants to get out of dodge, and I love Georgetown's curriculum B and location, Texas's women and Austin culture, and Penn's superior placement and business school, so it comes down to those four right now: Penn, Georgetown, Texas, and Vandy.

I'm thinking Vandy, though.

Oh OK, sorry I just rambled on the wrong thing then.

Employers in the major markets (NY, DC, LA, SF, Chi?) will generally look deeper into the class at Penn than Vandy. For instance, it might be hard to get much love from NY with a 3.0 at Vandy (I don't know if this is true--just picking a number), but you might be able to drop down to a 2.8 or something at Penn and get the same kind of consideration. (Again, these are hypothetical numbers just to illustrate the point--before people get bent out of shape because I got the numbers wrong.) That is probably true in most big markets--possible exception is Atlanta. I think the smaller the market gets, the less predictable that kind of thing is, though. For example, in Raleigh, the firms probably acknowledge that Penn is a great school, but I suspect that the GPA cushion is not as significant.

If you do not have to pay for Vandy, but you do have to pay for elsewhere, it's not much of a question to me. That being said, if you really don't want to be in Nashville, or you really do want to go elsewhere, I'm not here to tell you not to do that. But I definitely wouldn't pay $150-200k for any of those other schools when you could get Vandy paid for. Honestly, I think Vandy is an objectively better decision than Georgetown in general anyway, at equal cost.

[Veyron]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was accepting your judgment that secondary markets with no ties was likely not going to happen regardless of the school. I was asking about DC, LA, NY, Atlanta, Nashville, North Carolina, and Washington - places you said either would probably get me.

Veyron, given my stated preferences - interest in business, PI, policy, etc, open as far as market goes - which would you take? Drylo, I'm assuming you think Vandy all the way.

Unless Northwestern offers me something good, I'm going to knock them off because, as Veyron says, it seems like Penn offers similar opportunities, only better ones.

I'm also going to knock UW off because, as much as I'd love to go to school there, its definitely not worth $100k more than Vandy.

Part of me just really wants to get out of dodge, and I love Georgetown's curriculum B and location, Texas's women and Austin culture, and Penn's superior placement and business school, so it comes down to those four right now: Penn, Georgetown, Texas, and Vandy.

I'm thinking Vandy, though.

It seems like you've identified all of the relevant factors in this decision. From a career perspective, Penn places better on the west coast (and has a regional interview program in several CA cities) and in D.C., but if that still isn't putting you over the hump, a full ride at Vandy isn't a bad option. Just recognize that Vandy is a megaregional, not national school, so if you aren't near the top of the class, plan to stay in the south for your first job.

[drylo]

It seems like you've identified all of the relevant factors in this decision. From a career perspective, Penn places better on the west coast (and has a regional interview program in several CA cities) and in D.C., but if that still isn't putting you over the hump, a full ride at Vandy isn't a bad option. Just recognize that Vandy is a megaregional, not national school, so if you aren't near the top of the class, plan to stay in the south for your first job.

I just want to weigh in on this briefly. What I was saying earlier is that basically all schools are "megaregional," not national. Basically, all top schools can get you to major markets if you want, or to secondary markets where the school is located, or to secondary markets where you have lived. I don't think Penn is really any more "national" than Vandy--Penn doesn't allow you to break into markets that Vandy wouldn't. Either they are both "national"--i.e., compared to schools like UT-Knoxville--or they are both "megaregional" in the sense that they are not sufficient to get you a job in any market you please.

At any rate, I think Veyron also maybe misunderstands the dynamic of Vandy students. It is not a situation where the 25-30% (or whatever the figure is) that go to NY are the top 30%, and then the rest of the people are "stuck" in the South. Most Vandy students have no desire to work in NY, and that includes many at the top of the class. I'm just throwing that out there FWIW to you.

[Veyron]

It seems like you've identified all of the relevant factors in this decision. From a career perspective, Penn places better on the west coast (and has a regional interview program in several CA cities) and in D.C., but if that still isn't putting you over the hump, a full ride at Vandy isn't a bad option. Just recognize that Vandy is a megaregional, not national school, so if you aren't near the top of the class, plan to stay in the south for your first job.

I just want to weigh in on this briefly. What I was saying earlier is that basically all schools are "megaregional," not national. Basically, all top schools can get you to major markets if you want, or to secondary markets where the school is located, or to secondary markets where you have lived. I don't think Penn is really any more "national" than Vandy--Penn doesn't allow you to break into markets that Vandy wouldn't. Either they are both "national"--i.e., compared to schools like UT-Knoxville--or they are both "megaregional" in the sense that they are not sufficient to get you a job in any market you please.

At any rate, I think Veyron also maybe misunderstands the dynamic of Vandy students. It is not a situation where the 25-30% (or whatever the figure is) that go to NY are the top 30%, and then the rest of the people are "stuck" in the South. Most Vandy students have no desire to work in NY, and that includes many at the top of the class. I'm just throwing that out there FWIW to you.

(a) Yes, Penn is more national, at lest in the markets of which I have researched hiring.
(b) I don't misunderstand the dynamic of Vandy at all. Obvi most people there from whatever part of the class want to stay in the south. However, that doesn't change the fact that NYC V100s want 20%.

[drylo]

It seems like you've identified all of the relevant factors in this decision. From a career perspective, Penn places better on the west coast (and has a regional interview program in several CA cities) and in D.C., but if that still isn't putting you over the hump, a full ride at Vandy isn't a bad option. Just recognize that Vandy is a megaregional, not national school, so if you aren't near the top of the class, plan to stay in the south for your first job.

I just want to weigh in on this briefly. What I was saying earlier is that basically all schools are "megaregional," not national. Basically, all top schools can get you to major markets if you want, or to secondary markets where the school is located, or to secondary markets where you have lived. I don't think Penn is really any more "national" than Vandy--Penn doesn't allow you to break into markets that Vandy wouldn't. Either they are both "national"--i.e., compared to schools like UT-Knoxville--or they are both "megaregional" in the sense that they are not sufficient to get you a job in any market you please.

At any rate, I think Veyron also maybe misunderstands the dynamic of Vandy students. It is not a situation where the 25-30% (or whatever the figure is) that go to NY are the top 30%, and then the rest of the people are "stuck" in the South. Most Vandy students have no desire to work in NY, and that includes many at the top of the class. I'm just throwing that out there FWIW to you.

(a) Yes, Penn is more national, at lest in the markets of which I have researched hiring.
(b) I don't misunderstand the dynamic of Vandy at all. Obvi most people there from whatever part of the class want to stay in the south. However, that doesn't change the fact that NYC V100s want 20%.

OK, I don't dispute that big NYC firms are willing to hire lower GPAs from Penn than Vandy. But that doesn't make Penn "more national." Maybe it is just semantics, but "national" to me implies geographic breadth. And we both agree (I think) that Penn doesn't offer greater geographic reach than Vandy, just that a student at Penn has a little bit of a GPA cushion over a student at Vandy with most firms.

[Veyron]

It seems like you've identified all of the relevant factors in this decision. From a career perspective, Penn places better on the west coast (and has a regional interview program in several CA cities) and in D.C., but if that still isn't putting you over the hump, a full ride at Vandy isn't a bad option. Just recognize that Vandy is a megaregional, not national school, so if you aren't near the top of the class, plan to stay in the south for your first job.

I just want to weigh in on this briefly. What I was saying earlier is that basically all schools are "megaregional," not national. Basically, all top schools can get you to major markets if you want, or to secondary markets where the school is located, or to secondary markets where you have lived. I don't think Penn is really any more "national" than Vandy--Penn doesn't allow you to break into markets that Vandy wouldn't. Either they are both "national"--i.e., compared to schools like UT-Knoxville--or they are both "megaregional" in the sense that they are not sufficient to get you a job in any market you please.

At any rate, I think Veyron also maybe misunderstands the dynamic of Vandy students. It is not a situation where the 25-30% (or whatever the figure is) that go to NY are the top 30%, and then the rest of the people are "stuck" in the South. Most Vandy students have no desire to work in NY, and that includes many at the top of the class. I'm just throwing that out there FWIW to you.

(a) Yes, Penn is more national, at lest in the markets of which I have researched hiring.
(b) I don't misunderstand the dynamic of Vandy at all. Obvi most people there from whatever part of the class want to stay in the south. However, that doesn't change the fact that NYC V100s want 20%.

OK, I don't dispute that big NYC firms are willing to hire lower GPAs from Penn than Vandy. But that doesn't make Penn "more national." Maybe it is just semantics, but "national" to me implies geographic breadth. And we both agree (I think) that Penn doesn't offer greater geographic reach than Vandy, just that a student at Penn has a little bit of a GPA cushion over a student at Vandy with most firms.

I should also specify that my homemarket is thousands of miles from either school and the cutoff difference is just as extreme there. The mantra I've heard over and over again is "we want to hire top 10." Other than that, school loyalty runs to the local T-1s and Vandy and GW might get some slight edge over those.

Again, one market, but way far away from either school.

Its all class rank though, not GPA. I imagine that a given GPA means a bit more at Vandy than it does at Penn b/c of grade inflation.

[drylo]

I should also specify that my homemarket is thousands of miles from either school and the cutoff difference is just as extreme there. The mantra I've heard over and over again is "we want to hire top 10." Other than that, school loyalty runs to the local T-1s and Vandy and GW might get some slight edge over those.

Again, one market, but way far away from either school.

Its all class rank though, not GPA. I imagine that a given GPA means a bit more at Vandy than it does at Penn b/c of grade inflation.

Interesting. I've never gotten that feeling (T-10) from the markets that I have interviewed/gotten offers in. But it doesn't sound like we are talking about the same markets judging by mileage.

At any rate, last thing I will say about this... I'm not sure which school you were suggesting had more grade inflation, but just FYI, GPA is going to be what matters from Vandy because Vandy doesn't rank students.

[Veyron]

I should also specify that my homemarket is thousands of miles from either school and the cutoff difference is just as extreme there. The mantra I've heard over and over again is "we want to hire top 10." Other than that, school loyalty runs to the local T-1s and Vandy and GW might get some slight edge over those.

Again, one market, but way far away from either school.

Its all class rank though, not GPA. I imagine that a given GPA means a bit more at Vandy than it does at Penn b/c of grade inflation.

Interesting. I've never gotten that feeling (T-10) from the markets that I have interviewed/gotten offers in. But it doesn't sound like we are talking about the same markets judging by mileage.

At any rate, last thing I will say about this... I'm not sure which school you were suggesting had more grade inflation, but just FYI, GPA is going to be what matters from Vandy because Vandy doesn't rank students.

Neither does Penn. I think we have more grade inflation tho. Firms still can pretty much figure out your rank even if the school doesn't disclose.

[Moxie]

Preferences:
1. PI/clerkship/maybe big law for the doors it opens in California (no ties), Pacific Northwest (did a year of AmeriCorps there), Colorado (love the area, but no ties), DC (no ties), Nashville (raised there). Could maybe do Atlanta, New York, Chicago, or Boston, but am turned off by the traffic/congestion of the first, the expected billable hours and pressure of the second, and the cold of the third and fourth. Not sure about Texas cities. I am concerned with work/life balance, and am willing to sacrifice money and prestige if necessary. I am also willing to try big law first, though, to find out, though I'd prefer prestigious PI/government - specifically in environmental law, international development, human rights law. I also have a solid back-up option outside of the field of law, should I fail completely, though I'm obviously trying to avoid that.
2. I went to school at UNC, and while I don't require a fun, friendly college town, I would like to be among friendly students, have good, nearby nightlife and outdoors activities. I definitely don't want a super-competitive, anti-social crowd.
3. I know it sounds bizarre, since I said I was focused on PI and government, but I'm also very interested in business and would love to take some business courses or maybe even get an MBA at the same time. Down the line, I see myself getting involved with venture capital and entrepreneurship with a PI tilt (work with me here; I know it's strange).

The bolded make me tell you to run to Vandy as fast as possible. It's amazing how nice it is to work without $204,000 in debt, and I'm sure you're familiar with the area around Vandy if you grew up in Nashville.

I'm not saying Vandy is better than Penn, but considering the $200,000 difference in cost, Vanderbilt is the obvious choice.

[whitman]

I've got a related question. How big of a scholarship would you guys require to choose Vandy over Penn at sticker? Or Georgetown over Penn?

Rad Law and drylo, how much do you think Vandy is worth?

[joeljohnson]

OP, what are your numbers?

[Tarheel10]

3.54/171

[minuit]

Vanderbilt. It's a top school, and it's free.

[Grizz]

I've got a related question. How big of a scholarship would you guys require to choose Vandy over Penn at sticker? Or Georgetown over Penn?

Rad Law and drylo, how much do you think Vandy is worth?

Not a simple answer. Depends on career goals, ties, etc.

[drylo]

I've got a related question. How big of a scholarship would you guys require to choose Vandy over Penn at sticker? Or Georgetown over Penn?

Rad Law and drylo, how much do you think Vandy is worth?

Not a simple answer. Depends on career goals, ties, etc.

Yeah, it's really hard to answer that in a vacuum. So hard, in fact, that I am not even going to try without more specific information.

Personally, I would take Vandy over Georgetown straight up. But not everyone would do that, and that's fine. So then the question is how much scholarship would it take to get me to pick Vandy over Penn, but again that really depends on your background and what you want to do in the future. Ultimately, it's going to be a judgment call that you have to make.

[Tarheel10]

One last bump, since I'm about to send in my deposit.

Anyone feel strongly that Vanderbilt is the wrong choice?

Options:
Vanderbilt (no debt - this is where I am planning on sending my deposit)
UPenn ($80,000 debt)

[Patriot1208]

One last bump, since I'm about to send in my deposit.

Anyone feel strongly that Vanderbilt is the wrong choice?

Options:
Vanderbilt (no debt - this is where I am planning on sending my deposit)
UPenn ($80,000 debt)

Wait, now the debt is only 80k?

If that's true i'd take Upenn for the better job prospects.

[Tarheel10]

One last bump, since I'm about to send in my deposit.

Anyone feel strongly that Vanderbilt is the wrong choice?

Options:
Vanderbilt (no debt - this is where I am planning on sending my deposit)
UPenn ($80,000 debt)

Wait, now the debt is only 80k?

If that's true i'd take Upenn for the better job prospects.

Well the cost is still the same, but I'd be using up all my savings. I'd save some down the line in avoided interest, but still have to pay full sticker price. Sorry that was misleading.

Costs (not debt):

Vanderbilt: $0
Penn: $200,000

[Patriot1208]

One last bump, since I'm about to send in my deposit.

Anyone feel strongly that Vanderbilt is the wrong choice?

Options:
Vanderbilt (no debt - this is where I am planning on sending my deposit)
UPenn ($80,000 debt)

Wait, now the debt is only 80k?

If that's true i'd take Upenn for the better job prospects.

Well the cost is still the same, it's just I'd be using up all my savings. I'd save some down the line in avoided interest, but still have to pay full sticker price. Sorry that was mislead.

Costs (not debt):

Vanderbilt: $0
Penn: $200,000

O gotcha, ya then I still think Vandy is the correct choice.