The Case for T2 Forum

[98234872348]

In the end, I would rather be paying much less for what I see as a similar chance at getting a job. So I agree with this:

I would like to say that calling you a wide eyed 1L optimist was a comment I made after hearing you make assertions like this. This is simply not true. At all. The opportunities that are available to a student at a T14 as compared to a T2 are exponentially more abundant. At a T2 you have, at best, a 5% chance of getting a high paying job out of OCI. Out of a T14, it's more like a 50% chance. That is not a similar chance.

This is an oversimplification. Had you read the rest of my post you would have seen why I came to that conclusion.

Speculating over how you would have done at another school is a pointless exercise; my theory keeps it simple. 5% of people are going to get firm jobs from your school, 50% at a T14 will. Doesn't seem like a difficult decision.

[MrKappus]

5% of people are going to get firm jobs from your school, 50% at a T14 will. Doesn't seem like a difficult decision.

(1) Unless it's easier to be top 5% (see #2) at a T2 than it is to be top 50% at a T14. No saying it is. Just providing necessary assumptions you left out.
(2) Top 10% of T2 is probably a more realistic appraisal of biglaw chances, and even more if your "firm job" includes midlaw.

[rose711]

OP should be careful about revealing his school-- because he just insulted his class. Which, why do that?

[patrickd139]

5% of people are going to get firm jobs from your school, 50% at a T14 will. Doesn't seem like a difficult decision.

(1) Unless it's easier to be top 5% (see #2) at a T2 than it is to be top 50% at a T14. No saying it is. Just providing necessary assumptions you left out.
(2) Top 10% of T2 is probably a more realistic appraisal of biglaw chances, and even more if your "firm job" includes midlaw.

Top 10% by no means nets you mid or big law at my mid T2, ftr. It's more like top 5%, and even then only if you're from the region.

[rundoxierun]

5% of people are going to get firm jobs from your school, 50% at a T14 will. Doesn't seem like a difficult decision.

(1) Unless it's easier to be top 5% (see #2) at a T2 than it is to be top 50% at a T14. No saying it is. Just providing necessary assumptions you left out.
(2) Top 10% of T2 is probably a more realistic appraisal of biglaw chances, and even more if your "firm job" includes midlaw.

Not if your T2 isnt in a major market. Even still, there is a decent chance of striking out if everything else about you isnt perfect. Probably more comparable to top 2/3 at a T14. From what I have been told job prospects arent at all completely linear with rank so a top 2/3 person has a decent shot at biglaw from T-14 but nowhere near guarantee.

[adude]

Speculating over how you would have done at another school is a pointless exercise; my theory keeps it simple. 5% of people are going to get firm jobs from your school, 50% at a T14 will. Doesn't seem like a difficult decision.

Yes, your theory is nice and simple. That says nothing about how accurate it is.

Come back with a firm job from 2L OCI and I'll listen.

1L SA positions are notoriously harder to get than 2L ones.

This is taking up too much time. Unlike you guys with 1k-20k posts, I have to take breaks from TLS and study from time to time. Hitting the books now.

[patrickd139]

5% of people are going to get firm jobs from your school, 50% at a T14 will. Doesn't seem like a difficult decision.

(1) Unless it's easier to be top 5% (see #2) at a T2 than it is to be top 50% at a T14. No saying it is. Just providing necessary assumptions you left out.
(2) Top 10% of T2 is probably a more realistic appraisal of biglaw chances, and even more if your "firm job" includes midlaw.

Not if your T2 isnt in a major market. Even still, there is a decent chance of striking out if everything else about you isnt perfect. Probably more comparable to top 2/3 at a T14. From what I have been told job prospects arent at all completely linear with rank so a top 2/3 person has a decent shot at biglaw from T-14 but nowhere near guarantee.

Cosigned, emphasis on the bolded.

[dakatz]

I feel like I could make a really solid argument about picking a T25 with good $$ over a T14 at sticker. But I'd have a much harder time with a T2 over T14 absent some VERY extenuating circumstances.

[MrKappus]

5% of people are going to get firm jobs from your school, 50% at a T14 will. Doesn't seem like a difficult decision.

(1) Unless it's easier to be top 5% (see #2) at a T2 than it is to be top 50% at a T14. No saying it is. Just providing necessary assumptions you left out.
(2) Top 10% of T2 is probably a more realistic appraisal of biglaw chances, and even more if your "firm job" includes midlaw.

Top 10% by no means nets you mid or big law at my mid T2, ftr. It's more like top 5%, and even then only if you're from the region.

I can't speak to your T2, because I've no idea where you go. But I'm sorry, I just don't think you're correct (as to T2's generally). I went to LST, entered a typical mid-mkt T2 (Case Western), and saw that the 25%ile of 49.4% reported was $76k. That means 75% of 107 people (~50% x class of 214 people), or 80 people, made $76k or more. 80 out of 214 is 37% making 76k or more. If only "top 5%" are getting big- or midlaw firm jobs, who's paying ~80 Case Western graduates $76k or more?

Disclaimer: It's class of 2008 data, so it doesn't account for ITE. That said, I'm operating under the assumption that ITE wouldn't make 35% of the class making $76k or more drop to 5%. If that assumptions wrong, then everything I wrote above's wrong too.

[rundoxierun]

I can't speak to your T2, because I've no idea where you go. But I'm sorry, I just don't think you're correct (as to T2's generally). I went to LST, entered a typical mid-mkt T2 (Case Western), and saw that the 25%ile of 49.4% reported was $76k. That means 75% of 107 people (~50% x class of 214 people), or 80 people, made $76k or more. 80 out of 214 is 37% making 76k or more. If only "top 5%" are getting big- or midlaw firm jobs, who's paying ~80 Case Western graduates $76k or more?

Disclaimer: It's class of 2008 data, so it doesn't account for ITE. That said, I'm operating under the assumption that ITE wouldn't make 35% of the class making $76k or more drop to 5%. If that assumptions wrong, then everything I wrote above's wrong too.

To really talk about this on these forums you have to really define what you mean by midlaw. Thats why I tend to only comment on chances at "biglaw" or equivalent salaries. When I refer to the "top 10%" I am doing so in the context of biglaw type salaries. FWIW, in my region at least, of the few firms that pay in the 70-90k they hire based on more than grades/school (although the one Im personally familiar with does prefer top grads as the managing partner is a Vandy grad) they like to choose people with a lot of emphasis on the type of personality they want as well.

[98234872348]

Speculating over how you would have done at another school is a pointless exercise; my theory keeps it simple. 5% of people are going to get firm jobs from your school, 50% at a T14 will. Doesn't seem like a difficult decision.

Yes, your theory is nice and simple. That says nothing about how accurate it is.

I think it's better to keep it simple than to mindlessly blather on about whether it's harder to be top 1/3 at one school or top 5% at another, considering such data is incalculable.

[patrickd139]

I can't speak to your T2, because I've no idea where you go. But I'm sorry, I just don't think you're correct (as to T2's generally). I went to LST, entered a typical mid-mkt T2 (Case Western), and saw that the 25%ile of 49.4% reported was $76k. That means 75% of 107 people (~50% x class of 214 people), or 80 people, made $76k or more. 80 out of 214 is 37% making 76k or more. If only "top 5%" are getting big- or midlaw firm jobs, who's paying ~80 Case Western graduates $76k or more?

Disclaimer: It's class of 2008 data, so it doesn't account for ITE. That said, I'm operating under the assumption that ITE wouldn't make 35% of the class making $76k or more drop to 5%. If that assumptions wrong, then everything I wrote above's wrong too.

To really talk about this on these forums you have to really define what you mean by midlaw. Thats why I tend to only comment on chances at "biglaw" or equivalent salaries. When I refer to the "top 10%" I am doing so in the context of biglaw type salaries. FWIW, in my region at least, of the few firms that pay in the 70-90k they hire based on more than grades/school (although the one Im personally familiar with does prefer top grads as the managing partner is a Vandy grad) they like to choose people with a lot of emphasis on the type of personality they want as well.

Kappus: If you're talking authentic biglaw (160k/year) there are exactly two people I know of in my class of 200 who are working at such firms 2L year. One of them is IP (patent bar member + significant work experience + astronomically high UGPA in chem e). The other is either number one or two in the class.

ETA: I think our class overachieved this year w/r/t biglaw placement, too.

[MrKappus]

Kappus: If you're talking authentic biglaw (160k/year) there are exactly two people I know of in my class of 200 who are working at such firms 2L year. One of them is IP (patent bar member + significant work experience + astronomically high UGPA in chem e). The other is either number one or two in the class.

ETA: I think our class overachieved this year w/r/t biglaw placement, too.

Your words were "mid or big law at my mid T2," so that's what I was talking about. The #'s get a lot astronomically smaller if we pare that down to $160k biglaw, no question.

[smittelman6]

this thread just utterly confused me. i'm a 0L with no chance at a T14... i can get into a t20-40, but not in the region i want to practice in (san diego). should i not be considering usd, even though it has strong regional ties, just because it is a t2? some people in this thread seem to be saying that i should forget about employment... i'm not thinking i'm getting biglaw by any means, but i would rather not be unemployed with 75k + col debt... if i choose a t2 over a t1.

[keg411]

this thread just utterly confused me. i'm a 0L with no chance at a T14... i can get into a t20-40, but not in the region i want to practice in (san diego). should i not be considering usd, even though it has strong regional ties, just because it is a t2? some people in this thread seem to be saying that i should forget about employment... i'm not thinking i'm getting biglaw by any means, but i would rather not be unemployed with 75k + col debt... if i choose a t2 over a t1.

If you can't get into a T14, the most important factor, by far, is geography (i.e. where you want to work; preferably where you are from). The second factor, by far, is keeping your debt as low as possibly (and under $100k).

[ohhi]

As a T5 student at a T2 school that did not apply to any T14 schools, but with an LSAT high enough, and a decent T2 scholarship, I would like to confirm a couple things the OP said:

If you can score T14 numbers on the LSAT you can almost certainly rank in the top T10 (T5%) of a T2 school. It's not about one exam going bad as some others have tried to say, but rather the top few students at my school are separated by a pretty hefty GPA margin from the T10% line (about 5x the T10%-T15% margin). Just saying, it's probably true that you can at least score in the T5%/T10. This will get you a grade-on onto LR, also, so even if you don't do well on the write-on you'll get LR.

That said, while all of the T5 and probably even T10 got 2L SA jobs, to say that all of the T10% got jobs would be very wrong. There are quite a few T10% students without them, but then again there are also also some T20% with them. Point is, your odds start going down drastically after the T10 line if you are not a top notch interviewer (I am certainly not). As a T5 student, I ended up only with a couple callbacks and really only one good offer for a 2L SA position, and I am on LR/etc.

However, it is nice to be working shoulder to shoulder 2L summer with someone who went to Harvard and easily has 5x my debtload (I will have only paid about $30k in tuition total throughout my 3 years). But, if you flunk out of the 15 or so OCI firms, you may be screwed. Firms outside of the geographic area really do not want to talk to you, either. People that flunked out in 2L OCI are also pretty much SOL for any kind of paid summer employment, too, biglaw or not.

Also, I will say that it is kind of crappy going to a school where the vast majority of students will not have a biglaw job. You feel like a dick talking about your summer job, and morale in general is pretty low. Also, career services/professors/seminars/etc basically assume that the people in attendance will not be working biglaw. Just saying, it would be nice to socialize with others that are getting the same type of employment I am. None of the good friends that I have made got onto LR, and none have biglaw jobs.

[MrKappus]

^ Possibly the least subtle alt in the history of TLS>

[adude]

^ Possibly the least subtle alt in the history of TLS>

ya, this post was taking up too much of my time. no way to delete as far as I can tell.

[DeeCee]

^ Possibly the least subtle alt in the history of TLS>

ya, this post was taking up too much of my time. no way to delete as far as I can tell.

so you're alting?

IBTL

[adude]

^ Possibly the least subtle alt in the history of TLS>

ya, this post was taking up too much of my time. no way to delete as far as I can tell.

so you're alting?

IBTL

Not even sure what "alting" is, but if you mean changing the title, then yes. If that's against the rules, my bad. Still, might be nice to have this thread locked . . .

[ohhi]

^ Possibly the least subtle alt in the history of TLS>

ya, this post was taking up too much of my time. no way to delete as far as I can tell.

He's trying to say that you wrote the post above (my post)... Believe what you will guys but I am not the OP.

[adude]

^ Possibly the least subtle alt in the history of TLS>

ya, this post was taking up too much of my time. no way to delete as far as I can tell.

He's trying to say that you wrote the post above... Believe what you will guys but I am not the OP.

I see . . . maybe it seems that way b/c you have so few posts.

I will say that it is kind of crappy going to a school where the vast majority of students will not have a biglaw job. You feel like a dick talking about your summer job, and morale in general is pretty low. Also, career services/professors/seminars/etc basically assume that the people in attendance will not be working biglaw. Just saying, it would be nice to socialize with others that are getting the same type of employment I am. None of the good friends that I have made got onto LR, and none have biglaw jobs.

I agree with this 100%. I tried to keep CALI's and interview invites to myself. If someone got a hint of how successful I was first semester, I could tell it was painful to them. Made me feel guilty. Esp since I know some ppl who need to get a job afterwards to support their families.

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

Are people ITT really saying saying that with a T14 LSAT score, you're just as likely to finish top 5-10% at a T2 as your are above median at a T14?

really??

[akili]

Are people ITT really saying saying that with a T14 LSAT score, you're just as likely to finish top 5-10% at a T2 as your are above median at a T14?

really??

lol, yup

[adude]

Are people ITT really saying saying that with a T14 LSAT score, you're just as likely to finish top 5-10% at a T2 as your are above median at a T14?

not sure what ppl you are referring to, but that is not my point