T14 sticker or GW full ride? Forum

[whymeohgodno]

This thread has just turned into a reverse splitter who got into UVA unabashedly bashing Cornell lolol.

[AreJay711]

Before the economy crash Cornell used to do better than UVa in New York and arguably nationwide. Cornell got hit hard in the crash because NYC got hit hard.

However NYC is now the back to being the most active market. The difference between Cornell and UVa NYC placement was small, and is probably still small. The difference is too unclear to make any reasonably informed judgment.

As much as I hate Cornell it's a UVA peer school.

Hell no. Cornell has the weakest non NYC placement of any top 14 school. It's clerkship placement is particularly weak; frankly Cornell is in a lot of ways, semi regional. It's simply that it's region is the one that has a lot of jobs and is glorified a lot. TLS glorifies schools that place heavily into NYC. This is why you will often see people call NYU a top 6 and how it is in another league than Michigan, but then turn around and say that Cornell and Michigan are peers. However, when you look at non NYC placement you find that there is no difference between Mich and NYU, but there's a noticeable gap between Michigan and Cornell.

UVA absolutely rocks Cornell in placing students into fed clerkships. If you want to work anywhere other than NYC, and your option is Cornell v. another top 14; go to the other top 14. TLS focuses heavily on NYC placement, go checkout how few non NYC firms do OCI at Cornell. Look at the grads they place into non NYC biglaw. The numbers don't look very different from Vanderbilt and Texas.

I buy this but I'd rather have better biglaw prospects only in NYC than strike out somewhere else with more mobility. Biglaw isn't my end all be all (nor even my fantasy) so I get what you're saying though. I'll also point out there is also probably a fair amount of self selection in the numbers too with people who really want NYC biglaw going to Cornell over other places.

[BruceWayne]

Before the economy crash Cornell used to do better than UVa in New York and arguably nationwide. Cornell got hit hard in the crash because NYC got hit hard.

However NYC is now the back to being the most active market. The difference between Cornell and UVa NYC placement was small, and is probably still small. The difference is too unclear to make any reasonably informed judgment.

As much as I hate Cornell it's a UVA peer school.

Hell no. Cornell has the weakest non NYC placement of any top 14 school. It's clerkship placement is particularly weak; frankly Cornell is in a lot of ways, semi regional. It's simply that it's region is the one that has a lot of jobs and is glorified a lot. TLS glorifies schools that place heavily into NYC. This is why you will often see people call NYU a top 6 and how it is in another league than Michigan, but then turn around and say that Cornell and Michigan are peers. However, when you look at non NYC placement you find that there is no difference between Mich and NYU, but there's a noticeable gap between Michigan and Cornell.

UVA absolutely rocks Cornell in placing students into fed clerkships. If you want to work anywhere other than NYC, and your option is Cornell v. another top 14; go to the other top 14. TLS focuses heavily on NYC placement, go checkout how few non NYC firms do OCI at Cornell. Look at the grads they place into non NYC biglaw. The numbers don't look very different from Vanderbilt and Texas.

I buy this but I'd rather have better biglaw prospects only in NYC than strike out somewhere else with more mobility. Biglaw isn't my end all be all (nor even my fantasy) so I get what you're saying though. I'll also point out there is also probably a fair amount of self selection in the numbers too with people who really want NYC biglaw going to Cornell over other places.

The thing is, which people often like to gloss over when they glorify the schools that place heavily into NYC, since NYC is the easiest place to get a firm job, you are gaining more by going to a school that has roughly equal NYC placement but significantly better non NYC placement than going to the school that get's most of it's strength from NYC. The exception would be if the NYC placing school blows the other one out of the water for NYC, but is the same for the other markets (which I will admit is the case with NYU for example) this scenario doesn't apply to Cornell though. Also, even in NYC firms aren't gong to hire deeper into Cornell than they do at UVA. UVA simply has a stronger rep.

[tingles]

Before going to law school, I would've said T14 all the way. Now that I'm at a T14, and trying to get a job in this economy - I say take a full ride at GW, especially if you plan on working in DC.

[irishman86]

School rankings (and grades) are not as important for people with a hard science background looking for IP work. I would probably take the full-ride.

Re: Cornell v. MVP. I didn't really notice any Cornell bias when I interviewed in NY (through researching the firms, interviewers, etc.) In fact, I wasn't interviewed by a single Cornell grad, but had MVP interviewers.

[09042014]

This shows overwhelming support for UVA

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Though it is not only NYC biglaw

Be careful treating that as gospel without considering context. Historically Cornell outplaces it in NLJ250 firms.

Firms in NYC no offered a lot more than other markets in 2009, but have also now recovered a bit better. You notice Columbia and NYU get beat out by Northwestern, a clearly inferior placing school. It's because Chicago didn't no offer as much, but now Chicago as a market is fucked.

But you trust that??? ^^ i mean those numbers are rediculously high. No way 75% of columbia grads are working in NLJ250 and 60% of duke??? i mean come on, i think this: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
Might be more accurate....

In 2007 they were. Then the economy happened. You are pointing to me the 2009 numbers from the same fucking group.

[kkfish]

True, how things will turn better in 2014..

This shows overwhelming support for UVA

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Though it is not only NYC biglaw

Be careful treating that as gospel without considering context. Historically Cornell outplaces it in NLJ250 firms.

Firms in NYC no offered a lot more than other markets in 2009, but have also now recovered a bit better. You notice Columbia and NYU get beat out by Northwestern, a clearly inferior placing school. It's because Chicago didn't no offer as much, but now Chicago as a market is fucked.

But you trust that??? ^^ i mean those numbers are rediculously high. No way 75% of columbia grads are working in NLJ250 and 60% of duke??? i mean come on, i think this: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
Might be more accurate....

In 2007 they were. Then the economy happened. You are pointing to me the 2009 numbers from the same fucking group.

[09042014]

True, how things will turn better in 2014..

They may or may not be better in 2014, but they will be different. Look at the 2009 data. Schools that place heavy in NYC got hit really hard, while schools that traditionally send students elsewhere like Michigan, Northwestern, UVA and Boalt held up much better.

However at this years OCI, NYC was by far the easiest market to get a job on. NYC's economy fell first, but recovered faster. Most markets haven't recovered at all.

What people should gather from this:

1)The data changes from year to year

2)All the lower t14 are pretty much within 10% of each other.

[BruceWayne]

True, how things will turn better in 2014..

They may or may not be better in 2014, but they will be different. Look at the 2009 data. Schools that place heavy in NYC got hit really hard, while schools that traditionally send students elsewhere like Michigan, Northwestern, UVA and Boalt held up much better.

However at this years OCI, NYC was by far the easiest market to get a job on. NYC's economy fell first, but recovered faster. Most markets haven't recovered at all.

What people should gather from this:

1)The data changes from year to year

2)All the lower t14 are pretty much within 10% of each other.

Really it seems like if you aren't going for NYC firm jobs, all the top 14 outside of HYS are within 10 percent of one another.

[kkfish]

thanks for the nice analysis!!

True, how things will turn better in 2014..

They may or may not be better in 2014, but they will be different. Look at the 2009 data. Schools that place heavy in NYC got hit really hard, while schools that traditionally send students elsewhere like Michigan, Northwestern, UVA and Boalt held up much better.

However at this years OCI, NYC was by far the easiest market to get a job on. NYC's economy fell first, but recovered faster. Most markets haven't recovered at all.

What people should gather from this:

1)The data changes from year to year

2)All the lower t14 are pretty much within 10% of each other.

[09042014]

True, how things will turn better in 2014..

They may or may not be better in 2014, but they will be different. Look at the 2009 data. Schools that place heavy in NYC got hit really hard, while schools that traditionally send students elsewhere like Michigan, Northwestern, UVA and Boalt held up much better.

However at this years OCI, NYC was by far the easiest market to get a job on. NYC's economy fell first, but recovered faster. Most markets haven't recovered at all.

What people should gather from this:

1)The data changes from year to year

2)All the lower t14 are pretty much within 10% of each other.

Really it seems like if you aren't going for NYC firm jobs, all the top 14 outside of HYS are within 10 percent of one another.

Outside of NYC and DC, firms want ties to the market. This really confuses the issue because then it becomes really hard to separate placement power from people at schools choosing to go to markets.

The schools then become more regional. If you want SF, Boalt is your better bet. Chicago then UChi, Michigan and Northwestern become best bets.

But it's hard to measure whether UVA places better than Cornell in Columbus Ohio. I'd suspect they are similar though. And in any case you pretty much have to be from Columbus to actually get a job there.

Good luck getting a job in Chicago from UVA if you've never lived in Illinois. But once you have, then the question of placement gets a lot murkier.

And if you have no regional ties, you are going to NYC or DC anyway.

[irishman86]

True, how things will turn better in 2014..

They may or may not be better in 2014, but they will be different. Look at the 2009 data. Schools that place heavy in NYC got hit really hard, while schools that traditionally send students elsewhere like Michigan, Northwestern, UVA and Boalt held up much better.

However at this years OCI, NYC was by far the easiest market to get a job on. NYC's economy fell first, but recovered faster. Most markets haven't recovered at all.

What people should gather from this:

1)The data changes from year to year

2)All the lower t14 are pretty much within 10% of each other.

If you have ties to the South, I'd argue that it's easier to get a job down there than in NYC. The South is less prestige-whorish than NYC. It's also easier getting a job down there from a non-T-14 if you have ties.

[stratocophic]

True, how things will turn better in 2014..

They may or may not be better in 2014, but they will be different. Look at the 2009 data. Schools that place heavy in NYC got hit really hard, while schools that traditionally send students elsewhere like Michigan, Northwestern, UVA and Boalt held up much better.

However at this years OCI, NYC was by far the easiest market to get a job on. NYC's economy fell first, but recovered faster. Most markets haven't recovered at all.

What people should gather from this:

1)The data changes from year to year

2)All the lower t14 are pretty much within 10% of each other.

If you have ties to the South, I'd argue that it's easier to get a job down there than in NYC. The South is less prestige-whorish than NYC. It's also easier getting a job down there from a non-T-14 if you have ties.

... Atlanta lost the largest percentage of NLJ250 lawyers in the country last year. I wouldn't count on it.
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/11/nlj-250- ... nt-hiring/

[09042014]

Texas with a texas ties is great right now.

[005618502]

Texas with a texas ties is great right now.

Gotta love Texas